The True Face Of The Dalai Lama

Originally posted by teeveesfrank
I would have to agree with r.e.d., it does seem like you were trying to be purposefully misleading.

I dont see how it can be so.

How does giving the Dalai Lama a name equal to giving him a position given the fact that the previous Lamas were retrospectively renamed the Dalai Lama meaning that a position was ALREADY created. The Dalai Lamas role until his 5th reincarnation was one of political leadership which was much different from the one which he then aquired from the Chinese leadership of polictical and religious domination over Tibet affiars. Much differernt from what r.e.d has said

reply to post by chinawhite


Any comment on this POST Chinawhite? I would really love to hear it?

he is still a buddhist monk

meaning?

ever hung out with buddhist monks? Some are awesome dudes, others are complete arses, just like any group.

Just like all the religions, buddhism has some thought provoking central tenets but is mostly full of controlling dogma designed to elevate a few special males to divine status.

I was reading a report just last week were the Chinese have released some 50 year old documents from the Dali Lama and his negotiations with Mao in 1957. He was in support of the Chinese action of modernizing Tibet until a power struggle over control of Tibet changed his attitude. He realized he was just going to be a working Joe in Mao's army. It was a full 2 years before the Dali started singing the blues about the Chinese over running "his" country in 1959.

The Dali wasn't in such a generous western driven media spotlight and I felt as I had been misled by the national media over the years in his regards.

Before you all ask, not all reports are on the internet; some are still published and in paper format only. There are still some old habits that haven't changed with modern times. If you do some serious internet searching, not wiki or yahoo news, but authentic searching; you may be able to come up with the source material but I can not say it has been translated to another language other than Chinese.

Hey Hinky, always enjoy seeing your posts.

Well what a revelation - and the DL had us all convinced he was as squeaky clean as the buddha, mohammed, jesus, lao tse and the rest of the old boys club.

I was always a Richard Gere fan until now, shame on you Richard for being so easily hoodwinked.

Mind you, one should always be cautious of men claiming divinity.
When someone wants you to kiss their foot, better to do like the Italian army and discreetly retreat whilst facing forwards.



[edit on 11-8-2008 by RogerT]

Originally posted by Animal
Why is i that you are so concerned with this other nations use of torture and abuse when you own country is well known to act in the same manner?

Because

A) It is already assumed that China is the worst country in the world and every evil known to man exist in China.
B) Everyone thinks the Dalai Lama and the Tibetans were peaceful "freedom" loving buddist, which they weren't
C) The discussion is involving the Dalai Lama and NOT China

I am curious why a Chinese citizen would be so concerned over another nations issues with abuse when there is so much abuse taking place in China?

I ask myself the same thing. Why are Americans throwing stones when they know they reside in a glass house themselves. As I pointed out before, the topic is about the Dalai Lama and not about China. BTW: I'm not a Chinese citizen so you can stop making references as if that is the truth

Originally posted by Animal
Any comment on this POST Chinawhite? I would really love to hear it?

Looks more like a assortment of China + Torture + Tibet searches in Google rather than real research in the subject. Please provide real researched work next time but I will respond to it this time

Link 1
What is so special about this link?. It is unsubstaniated and the "torture" techniques are fairly common in any police force while the more unrealistic ones would have been used by military prisons or maximum security prisions in order for people to gain confessions

Link 2
Again it has unsubstainated and is written by people who reside overseas and have obvious bias in thier opinion. One sided source based on information gathered from bias sources. Hardly something you take to court with.

Link 3

On December 28, Guo’s wife, Zhang Qing, visited him at Meizhou Prison in Guangdong Province. After her visit, she reported that on December 18, five days after he was sent to the prison, Guo Feixiong was beaten, apparently by a fellow prisoner.

We dont know what the situation is but the source itself states that it was apprantly by other prisoners. Well this stuff happens all the time, prisons are not the safest places in the world, just look at American prisons and the film based on prison life "OZ" which highlights how tough prison life is.

Link 4 (China Tortures Tibetans)

It mentions nothing about torture. "cultural genocide" is what the article about.

Link 5

You basic Human Rights of China. Womens rights, one-child policy a little about Tibet. The article goes on and on about how bad China is but forgets that every measure needs to be taken to stop population growth because the fact is CHINA CANNOT FEED A LARGER population let alone a population which is allowed to keep growing. Anyhow they are fairly sensible if you think about the regulations in place. Which one seems to be the biggst problem

Link 6

Time article about the slave labour incident. Officals found out and punishment was given out. You can't blame a government because of actions of one man. Why dont we accuse the Austrian government because of that women locked by her father in the basement for so long?

Link 7

Makes unrealistic comparisons between America and China. Obviously China is a developing nation and labour laws are more laspe than in a developed nation. But the article does not have any researched to back up the claims it made

Link 8 is more critical and focused on the democrates and Clinton than China. But what do you expect from neo-con publication like Newsmax

Link 9

Way to hard to read. Formats and conventions are not even attempted

Link 10 is not working.

This is the most awesome chinese propaganda i've ever experienced first hand. I don't expect any thing less from a country willing to leave several thousand people thirsty just to put on a good show at the olympics, or without water for their crops. Or the hundreds of thousands of people it forceably relocated, majority of which without proper compensation, while building the three gorges damn.

We can be told that all this information is incorrect and china is really a swell place, but then there's the fact that it is common practice to buy and sell children. That alone is an indicator of how backwards and terrible a place china really is, no need to mention the countless other horrific things about the country. Seriously, any country where national morality is so low or lacking that child buying/selling is acceptable and HARDLY investigated by the police is NOT a civilized nation. I don't give a damn how many new skyscrapers you build, you are not civilized.

errm, I thought this thread was about Tibet bashing, not about pretending China is a swell place. I'm sure the author is well aware that China is run by a gang of demonic arses, as is just about every country in the world today.

maybe I'm wrong, but it seemed that the intention was to offer a balance to the 'Tibet/DL is the holy moly schmolly' that our fav celebs have been trying to enrol us in.

I came up with a source that cites part of the messages the Dalia sent to Mao in 1956 and 1957.

Forget all the rest of the fluff of the article, it is propaganda, just read what he wrote.

article

I'm far and away from a Chinese fan or a supporter of the Russian SOB's, but I am a fair individual. China is not the problem with the Dalia. You'd never know that from the US media.

but then there's the fact that it is common practice to buy and sell children.

if you think serious crimes are common practice,then you must be out of your mind,actually i know there are many many sweatshop in the united states and people work them hands to the bone and get chickenfeed money.

china is not so great but also definitely not like the evil as your media described,actually chinese people are the most optimistic people according to various polls made by different international organizations,which is in line with the fact that china is the fastest growing economy in the world today and people 's living standard are being pushed up in a big way every single year.see world leaders from all of the world finally gathered in beijing,china bashing is heading a dead end,those politicians know that.no matter you like it or not,china is emerging as a big power,and it's people are very very optimistic and confident for its future.if that really makes you mad,i m sorry ,too bad,it is something bound to happen,you've got to live with it.

Please Please Mr Chinese Propaganda man do not get me going on this one.

I will post page after page , interviews, photos, links to videos.

ALL OF THESE SOURCES WILL BE AT A SCHOLAR OR INTERNATIONAL, LEGAL LEVEL.

Before this.

Yes a Feudal System did exist in Tibet. This is true, and that brought with it all the problems of that system. We must remember though that prior to WW2 only a handful of westerners had been to Tibet, it was isolated and lived maybe culturally a couple of hundreds of years behind a lot of the rest of the world.

The Current Dalai llama was only a teenager when he had to go into exile from Tibet. He was only accepted as Head of temporal and spiritual affairs quickly in response to the invasion by the Chinese.

Prior to this the "Regent" or caretaker was managing affairs of the state.

So blaming the current Dalai Llama is ridiculous, he never had the time in power in Tibet to integrate the new governance systems he was learning keenly as Teen from Western Visitors such as Heinrich Harrier.

Tibet was isolated. This led them to not take on Governance change as quickly as the rest of the world.

However they were doing this for a reason. at least 1 in 10 Tibetans at that time was a monk or nun. The entire society was based on religion and the propagation and support of the monastery system not the feudal system.

The Feudal systems that are alluded to happened, but what is not mentioned much is that the real regional power brokers were the Monasteries.

C’mon just before China Invaded Tibet MILLIONS OF YOUR COUNTRYMEN WERE SLAUGHTERED AND STARVED TO DEATH in the Cultural revolution.

Children were beheaded in front of their families for not carrying the "right little book"

Also just before that time in Europe Concentration Camps had been built and were here by the most "advanced" country in Europe at the time.

To the North Russia and its tribulations had killed hundreds of millions of people.

The worlds largest democracy at that time, when the new Dalai Llama was about to be reincarnated, allowed a known attack on its forces to go to war (pearl harbour), The Current leader of this countries grandfather Used their Banking System to fund and create the Hitler war Machine, then lent money to the rest of the world to fight it in return, basically selling human lives for great financial profit.

This country today can be seen to be undertaking torture currently today in parts of Cuba.

What yardstick of "advanced" civilisations from which continent are you measuring the Feudal system in Tibet against at that time?

You see before that with previous Llamas, not much progress was made with governance, however the rest of Europe was Lining up its men against each other in muddy fields and trench’s and wave after wave were dying, oh your country was being invaded and genocide was happening by the Japanese, your country replied in Kind.

Tibet did not want anything to do with type of world, they wanted to continue the most in-depth, profound and detailed study of the Human Mind that has ever ever been undertaken in recorded Human History, oh and to hopefully have as many "enlightened" humans as possible.

Thank you China for all the libraries that your soldiers burned and sacked, all the tongues of Great Masters that were removed, so that the lineage of Oral only transmissions from guru to teacher (some of the Bon/Tibetan Buddhist hybrid practices and oral teachings, were mixes of knowledge that went back over 2400 years!!!!)

Thanks for taking that knowledge away from humanity advanced genocidal china.

You see when the rest of the world then, and still to this day was under enslavement from apparent choices of democracy and fascist Bankers, or under totalitarian regimes as found at that time and now in China, Russia (Soviet Union) Europe, and the populace were all working to give a large proportion of their wealth and time labour to create military and war. Money and power for the bankers and politicians.

So what yardstick are you using to berate the "Tibetan System?"
Things such as your pictures showing Skulls and bones of "serfs", you know as well as I do this is not the correct interpretation of these artefacts.

A large part of the Buddhist faith is looking at impermanence etc, therefore that culture has a very very different view to old bits of bodies. Some of the most highly respected Tibetan scholars could be found drinking from empty skulls, and using thigh bones as musical instruments. This was used to break the attachment with the ID or EGO.

These scholars were not backward of medieval most have degrees that took at least 7-10 years to achieve, and many western scholars have stated they are as equivalent to getting a double first in western education. It is only a religious practice to do with Tantra.

So just to hopefully nip in the bud any ideas you have that this thread will propagate lies, propaganda and mistruths on behalf of a murderous, and despicable (to all humans! Chinese included) regime.

If ATS was around during the 1940's I don't believe the pro Hitler camp would get very far.

Your arguments and lies will not get very far here today my friend.

CHINA COMMITTED GENOCIDE IN TIBET.

Fact not a point of conjecture.

Well at that time this "backward feudal" country was doing the opposite, the people worked and tilled the fields for the local rich land owners (like all places in the world now still!!), they were however giving a main part to fund and expand, religious studies, monasteries.

How Backward. How stupid?

If you ask me that is the right situation, if not for religion at least for development or knowledge of human minds and experiences.

I always meant to do a thread on the Cultural revolution and the horrors of it for your countries rich history, knowledge and people.

Anyhow my thrust of any responses after my above points and below will be as stated of only a peer reviewed Scholarly Nature, from true provable Organisations with no agenda, or from the International Diplomatic Structures.

Any Documentaries, or photos, or statements made will only be posted where the source can be verified, or is balanced in response from a different source.

Is that OK?

So lets start then, hopefully my passion in this will allow you to see its not worth using ATS as a propaganda machine, but try if you like, you wont win my friend!

Anyhow to start and lets see how much time this will take to kill this thread

The following is from the United Nations;

DRAFT PETITION ON BEHALF OF TIBETANS DEPRIVED OF THEIR INTERNATIONALLY PROTECTED HUMAN RIGHTS1 FOR A GRANT OF UNITED NATIONS EFFECTIVE REMEDY.

IN THE UNITED NATIONS GENERAL ASSEMBLY,
ECONOMIC AND SOCIAL COUNCIL,
HUMAN RIGHTS COMMISSION,
THE SECRETARY GENERAL

UNITED NATIONS PLAZA,
NEW YORK

The Petitioners herein invoke the jurisdiction of the United Nations and its organs by virtue of the provisions of the United Nations Charter, the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, the Convention Against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment, the International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights, and the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, and file this petition on behalf of the Tibetans in the People’s Republic of China, praying for peace in the region, the recognition of the universally recognized human right of the freedom of religion, and the cessation of torture, arbitrary arrest
and detention and extrajudicial killings.

(Background historical information is then in this petition which is factual and not unfactual as the Op's has been shown already not to be)

Suppression of Tibetans’ fundamental human rights began with the invasion of Tibet by China. In two reports from 1959 and 1960 the International Commission of Jurists determined that the Chinese Communist Party (CCP) as the government of the People’s Republic of China (PRC) had the systematic intention of destroying the Buddhist

UN Quote Contd…

Religion in Tibet”, and carried out policies to effectuate this intention, policies such as undermining the Dalai Lama’s authority and the torture and killing of monks and lamas.

The Cultural Revolution caused the mass destruction of religious structures and persecution of religion throughout China and Tibet. By the late 1970s, the Chinese government began to repair and rebuild some of the Buddhist monasteries that had been destroyed during that period. The concept of freedom of religious beliefs also began to receive at least token acknowledgement within the Chinese Constitution. However, the freedom of the practice of religion was still very narrowly defined and tightly controlled by the government.

(And Further within this document the truth of CURRENT Chinese practise within Tibet)

According to Choeying, a female prisoner in the Drapchi prison, Dekyi Yangzom a
young nun was brutally sodomized with electric batons and given further punishments the next day. Choeying last saw her on May 13, 1998.

In February 1988, a nun was arrested and detained for two months after participating in a peaceful pro-independence demonstration. She and others were beaten with rifle butts and sticks and attacked by dogs. Other nuns were sodomized with electric batons; she was sexually abused with a stick. She has permanently lost one third of her physical ability on her right side, and suffers recurrent headaches and back pain, all due to the torture she suffered in detention.

The full UN petition can be found here,
UN Document

I suggest anyone who wants to explore the history or reality of the situation in Tibet by the Chinese authorities read this document.

Now Onto one of your posts stating the actual Population of Tibet was only 1 million and is 2.6 million now…

Propaganda Op and has been proven to be so.

In his book “Genocide” by Graham Charles Kinloch, Raj P. Mohan, who gathered 20 scholars together to look at the history of modern genocide it is stated;

As Reported in Tibet The Facts, prepared for the UN commission of Human Rights “the figures were obtained by interviewing Tibetan Refugees in India.
(ELF TEXT HERE, the figures relate to the claim of millions dead in Tibet during the genocide) The Chinese called the Figures preposterous, claiming at the time the entire population of Tibet was just over One Million. They Conceal the fact that this latter figure refers only to Central Tibet, whereas the Tibetan data refer to all Tibetan Areas in the PRC, which EVEN BY CHINESE statistics were over 4 Million"

Page 211 of the book found here:
Source

Where did those Millions disappear to OP?

I know its ATS so were they abducted by aliens?
Or did China Kill them?
I know which one has witnesses and was observed eh.

I will close this post of with a quote from a famous and well respected Russian who saw the horrors of the Gulags and Stalinism, and the words of the dalai Lama after that;

“In 1981, Alexander Solzhenytsin described the Chinese regime in Tibet as "more brutal and inhumane than any other communist regime in the world."

The Dalai Llama visited a Monk who had been imprisoned for over 30 years after the Genocide and Invasion of Tibet. He was sentenced to this because he refused to denounce the dalai Llama or smash up a rival monasteries artefacts as asked by the Chinese! In late 2000 he managed to get to North India out of Tibet.

The Dalai llama met him and even after all those years of torture the below is a account of the words between the two, though not verbatim, I will source it look for yourself…from memory it is brief but this is soo important shows the whole difference between the feudal backward Tibetans (joke) and most of the rest of humanity!

Dalai Llama to Monk

“It must have been terrible, and very frightening”

Monk replies

“yes there was real danger there”

The dalai Llama , obviously thinking he meant from being tortured more or dying asks then;

“What was the most dangerous thing then?”

The monk wholeheartedly and completely immediately responded
“There was real danger that I was loosing my Compassion (love!) for my jailers”

The Dali llama then commented that he wished he was able to be that advanced, and how right the monk was.

OP Think on that really think on that way of life and thought that is being destroyed now, today by what you support.

Source is a Documentary in 2002 by Jehm Films “The Yogis of Tibet”
Here

(A must see on some very interesting Yogi teachings being released due to the current state of the world, the entire secret yogi practices are now being passed on before the Chinese destroy all the knowledge)
How do you sleep at night? Stop posting lies.

Want to continue Op ed? You will only do the opposite of your Aim, that is to bring into the frame the Chinese reality of genocide in Tibet against MONKS and NUNS NOW TODAY….
and will not bring into question social structures in a isolated country over ½ a century ago.

Kind Regards,

Elf.

huh,that's true propaganda against china,and i have no time to read them ,it looks like you were there experienced the everything,better to make your post short.if you like to talk about the old history,tibet has been part of china for several hundred years,long before any european people set foot in americas ,check the wikipedia or other sources,it is not hard to find that.

you guys use a lot of words like slaughter,massucre,genocide...all those big words,but facts show tibetan population more than doubled in last fifty years.and life expectancy of tibetans was also more than doubled.how great a genocide work is this?and what happened to your american idians hosts?the first european settlers could have barely survived the first winter if not for the gracious and generous help given by the local indians.and what your forefathers finally did to them.that's true genocide,to kill off the whole nation,that's the word genocide really means in the dictionary.

and later on you put them,the real owners of land to barren places and called those tiny wanted-by-nobody land reservation.before i learned that history i had always thought the word reservation was for animals.

you can always claim that those atrocities were done by your ancestors and has nothing to do with you,but that's only 200 years ago,a very short time if put in chinese history.but you can never change the fact that you are living on stolen land.it's like stolen stuff passed down to a new generation,but it is still stolen stuff.you receive the benefits from those atrocities and you are still enjoying that.

there is no land disputes now in the states is because your forefathers almost killed all their generous hosts,leave no troubles for you,eh,how considerate they must be.they are still some indians alive at least,if you are really that righteous and moral,you guys should pack up to go back to your ancestral homes and give the land back to american indians.

quotes from wikipedia:

Historical Facts From Non-Chinese Sources The 1912 edition of the Catholic Encyclopedia states that “ During the eighteenth century the Chinese Emperor, K'ien-lung [i.e.Qianlong], began to establish his supremacy over Tibet; already in 1725 two high Chinese commissioners had been appointed to control the temporal affairs of the country, and in 1793 an imperial edict ordered that future Dalai Lamas were to be chosen from the names of children drawn from a "golden urn". ” “ The secular administration of Tibet includes a council (ka hia) of four ministers (kalon or kablon) of the third rank of Chinese officials, elected as a rule by the Peking government, on presentation by the Chinese amban...there are six military commanders (taipêng), with the fourth degree of Chinese rank. ” “ The Chinese administration of Tibet includes an imperial resident (chu tsang ta ch'ên) or amban (ngang pai) with an assistant resident (pang pan ta ch'ên)...The imperial resident is Chao Ehr-fung (appointed March, 1908)[4]

en.wikipedia.org...

map and quotes from wikipedia

Political map of Asia in 1890, showing Tibet as part of China (Qing Dynasty). The map was published in the Meyers Konversations-Lexikon in Leipzig in 1892.

A Rand McNally map appended to the 1914 edition of The New Student's Reference Work shows Tibet as part of the Republic of China.

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[edit on 12/8/2008 by Mirthful Me]

quotes from wikipedia

The September 1903 issue of National Geographic described it thus: “ Since the fifteenth century all power, civil and spiritual, has been nominally in the hands of the Dalai Lama, but China maintains a Manchu resident and an army. Until the Dalai Lama’s 22 year, the government is in the hands of a regent appointed by the Emperor of China. In order to avoid strife in selecting a Dalai Lama, the electoral council places three strips of paper with the names of three boys in an urn, and the Manchu resident removes one with a small staff. The dalai lama’s council, in whose hands is the actual power, embraces four so-called “Galons” appointed by the Emperor of China. The administration is in the hands of a closed aristocracy, and bribery and corruption are nearly universal.[5]

en.wikipedia.org...

quotes from wikipedia

The 1911 Encyclopaedia Britannica traces Chinese dominion over Tibet to Mongol-ruled China i.e. the Yuan Dynasty, continuing to the Ming Dynasty and the Qing Dynasty: “ Kublai Khan conquered all the east of Tibet...Kublai invested Phagspa with sovereign power over (1) Tibet proper, comprising the thirteen districts of U and Tsang, (2) Khalil and (3) Amdo. From this time the Sakya-pa lamas became the universal rulers of Tibet...[Later, Chyang Chub Gyaltshan] subdued Tibet proper and Kham… and with the approval of the court of Peking established a dynasty...When the Mongol dynasty of China passed away, the Mings confirmed and enlarged the dominion of the Tibetan rulers, recognizing at the same time the chief lamas of the eight principal monasteries of the country…During the minority of the fifth (really the third) Dalai Lama, when the Mongol king Tengir To… intervened in the affairs of the country, the Pan-ch'en Lo-sang Ch'o-kyi Gyal-ts'ang lama ... then applied for help to the first [Qing Dynasty] Manchu emperor of China, who had just ascended the throne...The Chinese government in 1653 confirmed the Dalai Lama in his authority, and he paid a visit to the emperor at Peking. The Mongol Khoshotes in 1706 and the Sungars in 1717 interfered again in the succession of the Dalai lama, but the Chinese army finally conquered the country in 1720, and the present system of government was established...[6] ” The Qing Dynasty Chinese rule over the Tibet was uninterrupted in the next centuries: “ In 1872–1873 some attempt was made by Indian officials to open up trade with Tibet…in 1886 a mission was organized to proceed to Lhasa. The Chinese… granted a passport to this mission...In 1890 a treaty was concluded, and trade regulations under this treaty in 1893; but the negotiations were carried on with the Chinese authorities... [In 1908] The Dalai Lama was now summoned to Peking, where he obtained the imperial authority to resume his administration…the Chinese amban in Lhasa …summoned the Chinese troops to enter the city. They did so, and the Dalai Lama fled to India in February 1910…and he was deposed by imperial decree.[6] ” According to historian Zahiruddin Ahmad, since at least the 18th century, when the Qing Government was setting up its local government structure and promulgated laws for the governing, Beijing has, in the words of a foreign missionary who witnessed, had "absolute dominion over Tibet"[7].

The Chinese Resident Ministers in Tibet, namely Ambans, were bestowed power which, according to the Imperial Ordinance promulgated in 1793, was on a par with the local spiritual leaders of Dalai Lamas and Panchen Lamas[8]. According to the Ordinance, the Ambans were in absolute charge of financial, diplomatic, and trade matters.

en.wikipedia.org...

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[edit on 12/8/2008 by Mirthful Me]

quotes from wikipedia

[The Dalai Lama] had been "deposed" by the Chinese Government in 1904...In 1908, he went to Beijing to visit the Emperor and Court. Arguing that the amban did not faithfully transmit his views to Beijing, the Dalai Lama requested permission to petition the throne directly (i.e., to bypass the amban)...[In 1910] China again deposed the Dalai Lama and expanded its efforts to expand its real control in Tibet... ” The "Patron-Priest" relationship (Tibetan: chöyön; Wylie: mchod-yon) held between the Chinese central authorities and the Tibetan local governments was one of superior to inferior. The 13th Dalai Lama, for example, knelt before the Empress Dowager and the young Emperor while he delivered his petition in Beijing. He was awarded the humiliating title of "Loyally Submissive Vice-Regent", and ordered to follow China's commands and communicate with the Emperor only through the Chinese Amban in Lhasa.[10][11]The kneeling before the Emperor followed the 17th-century precedent in the case of the 6th Dalai Lama.[12]

reply to post by chinawhite


Very entertaining reply. I love how my sources are not up to par but you are here defending critiques made by RENSE .COM.

I also never said China is the most evil country in the world I simply pointed out that as Chinese citizens (I can only assume) you and Haidian seem so very interested in bashing the Dalai Lama for the purpose (I can only assume) of adding more support for the Chinese occupation of Tibet for humanitarian reasons. When China is itself full of human rights abuses.

I ask myself the same thing. Why are Americans throwing stones when they know they reside in a glass house themselves. As I pointed out before, the topic is about the Dalai Lama and not about China. BTW: I'm not a Chinese citizen so you can stop making references as if that is the truth

I am not actually throwing stones I am pointing out blatant hypocrisy. To clarify my stance I actually am VERY fond of Chinese culture and history. Still I do have serious problems with the action of the Chinese government and its inability to see the value of human life.

Looks more like a assortment of China + Torture + Tibet searches in Google rather than real research in the subject. Please provide real researched work next time but I will respond to it this time

Unlike the material I have seen on Tibet? Please man lets adhere to the SAME standards here.

Link 1
What is so special about this link?. It is unsubstaniated and the "torture" techniques are fairly common in any police force while the more unrealistic ones would have been used by military prisons or maximum security prisions in order for people to gain confessions

Yes maybe in China but not in many other nations because treating humans this way is considered...TORTURE...

Link 4 (China Tortures Tibetans)

It mentions nothing about torture. "cultural genocide" is what the article about.

As if Chinas cultural genocide of Tibet is nothing....The link does talk about the abuses the Tibetans, especially women, are suffering at the hands of the Chinese.

Link 5

You basic Human Rights of China. Womens rights, one-child policy a little about Tibet. The article goes on and on about how bad China is but forgets that every measure needs to be taken to stop population growth because the fact is CHINA CANNOT FEED A LARGER population let alone a population which is allowed to keep growing. Anyhow they are fairly sensible if you think about the regulations in place. Which one seems to be the biggst problem

Nice dismissal let me share a quote from 5 for you mate

Torture of detainees is endemic in Chinese detention centers and prisons. Although China became party to the UN Convention Against Torture in 1988, the government has not taken effective measures to diminish the risk of prisoners being tortured or ill-treated. Despite strong evidence of torture in several cases of death in custody, state prosecutors have refused to release autopsy results to families or to initiate investigations. In many detention centers, beatings, inadequate food and poor hygiene appear to be a routine part of the process of eliciting confessions and compliance from detainees. Such treatment is applied to ordinary prisoners as well as political detainees.

According to prisoner reports, methods commonly used by guards include: beatings using electric batons; rubber truncheons on hands and feet; long periods in handcuffs and/or leg irons, often tightened so as to cause pain; restriction of food to starvation levels; and long periods in solitary confinement. Furthermore, corrupt authorities at detention centers, prisons and labor camps have extorted large sums of money from families of detainees for the state's provision of "daily supplies" and "medical expenses."

Despite continuing efforts by the UN Special Rapporteur on Torture, the International Committee of the Red Cross and other humanitarian organizations, PRC officials have not agreed to allow open and unannounced visits to prisoners. PRC authorities acknowledge that there are some 1.2 million prisoners and detainees in China. link

Link 6

Time article about the slave labour incident. Officals found out and punishment was given out. You can't blame a government because of actions of one man. Why dont we accuse the Austrian government because of that women locked by her father in the basement for so long?

Yes this is only one example but there are plenty out there mate. You can not deny that China is exploiting its ability to force cheap labor out of its more unfortunate citizens for the 'good of the nation'. I could provide another long list of links highlighting the state of forced labor, that is slave labor in china but I am not in the mood for doing the work.

Link 7

Makes unrealistic comparisons between America and China. Obviously China is a developing nation and labour laws are more laspe than in a developed nation. But the article does not have any researched to back up the claims it made

First off this is NOT about comparing China to America it is SPECIFICALLY about the problem with Child Labor in China. IT is about the GROWING problem as more and more children are forced to work in dangerous conditions for next to no pay for extremely long hours every day of the week. The article also cites is sources so if someones wants to they can look up the facts in the books they were originally printed in.

Link 8 is more critical and focused on the democrates and Clinton than China. But what do you expect from neo-con publication like Newsmax

You are right to a degree this article highlights how Bill Clinton solidified the USA's dealing with China and Chinese goods. It also highlights the abuses people suffer in Chinese labor camps. You can bash my source all you want, but if you can use Rense I can use Newsmax.

Link 9

Way to hard to read. Formats and conventions are not even attempted

Let me help you find some salient points

House of Representatives,
Subcommittee on International Operations and Human Rights,
Committee on International Relations,
Washington, DC.
The Subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 10:16 a.m., in room 2172, Rayburn House Office Building, Washington, D.C., Hon. Christopher H. Smith (chairman of the Subcommittee) presiding.

Chinese labor camps house countless prisoners of conscience, political dissidents, and religious believers. Camp inmates are subjected to brainwashing, torture and forced labor. By any sane reckoning, those inmates are slaves.
The Beijing dictatorship has long used its system of labor camps to crush dissent and to remove so-called counter-revolutionaries from Chinese society. More recently, it has begun using them to turn a profit. As we will hear today, the United States and some American businesses have been complicit in making that repression profitable.
We have long known that the Chinese dictatorship exploits the slave laborers in its camps to produce goods for exports. Laogai inmates are forced to make any number of the products that you and I end up purchasing in our local malls—from clothing to automotive parts, office supplies to Christmas decorations.

I am running out of room so let me just urge you to 'scroll down' so you can read the text. It is the transcript for a US government committee meeting so the format is admittedly unusual but the information is NOT hard to find.

You attempted to dismiss all of my links for one reason or another when they are all pretty good sources of information on the treatment of humans in China today. I find it rather disappointing.

reply to post by chinawhite


My point is simple, why should I listen to what you have to say about the torturous Tibetan regime when you are not even willing to admit the violations of human rights in China?

The double standard ty ou are applying makes you seem less than trust worthy as it points to ulterior motives, like propaganda.

all the evidence shows that tibet has been always part of china,anything about tibet is chinese internal affairs.

Originally posted by Animal
My point is simple, why should I listen to what you have to say about the torturous Tibetan regime when you are not even willing to admit the violations of human rights in China?

Where have I EVER denied that there was no violations of human rights in China?. Dont mix words or make accusations because I will call you out to make you quote me on this

Because the topic is about what the Tibetans did. I have already acknowledge some of your claims but the problem with that is I believe that China suffers from human rights abuses but NOT ON THE LEVEL you suggest. Of course there is human rights abuses in the PRC, obviously there is. No one is out to deny that there are abuses which occur in the PRC, anything can be misconstrewed to be human rights violations. I just dont believe that some of the things you posted actually happen or occur to the extent that the articles you googled claim to have happened or is happening at the present time.

I love how my sources are not up to par but you are here defending critiques made by RENSE .COM.

So If Rense said the sky was blue its not blue?.

I have never heard of Rense.com nor do I know why you think they are so bad. Anyhow the original article was not published by Rense but by an author who put the article up on Rense or someone did it for him. Anyhow, his source is not Chinese nor Tibetan and gives valid points backed up from quotes or references to his sources unlike many of your sources which dont give a source but quote figures without a source, has obvious bias on the issue and make value judgements. Anyhow look at the sources I POSTED such as Dr. Michael Parenti's Friendly Feudalism and I think a video from national geographic which both are repectable sources which are not hired by the Chinese government or are from the Tibetan camp

you and Haidian seem so very interested in bashing the Dalai Lama for the purpose (I can only assume) of adding more support for the Chinese occupation of Tibet for humanitarian reasons.

Hmmm. Which particular post gave that impression?. As the posting progressed it clearly shows that the argument is that the Dalai Lama is not the god he is claimed to be by the western media. I dont support whatever you believe China is doing in Tibet but I support Chinas position that Tibet is part of China. Anyhow the discussion is not about China's role in Tibet but rather the fabicated western image of the Dalai Lama and his worshipping by Hollywood celebrities

I am not actually throwing stones I am pointing out blatant hypocrisy.

You pointing out your PERCEIVED hypocrisy. Remember than I'm not a Chinese citizen as you painted me out to be.

Unlike the material I have seen on Tibet? Please man lets adhere to the SAME standards here.

I speak for myself when I state that all sources posted by me a read fully when they are submitted so that I know the position I take in the argument. With Link 4 you specifically outlined that the source was going to contain incidents of Chinese torturing Tibetans which it did not, it mentions cultral geocide instead. If you singled that source out and it didn't contain the information you stated it tells me that you didn't read what you posted but just merely posted a random collection of google search results. That I could have done myself.....

Yes maybe in China but not in many other nations because treating humans this way is considered...TORTURE...

There are clips in youtube which have worst "torture" tha the techniques outlined in the lin you showed. Yes they seem bad if you look at them by themselves but every prison in the world would use similar if not worst "torture" technqiues than that. Anyhow the OHCHR states that "It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in or incidental to lawful sanctions.". I do not refute or attempt to refute that these techniques are used in China only to state that I hope that these methods help the course of justice

As if Chinas cultural genocide of Tibet is nothing

I said
"It mentions nothing about torture"

How did you manage to change that to "As if Chinas cultural genocide of Tibet is nothing.."?

Nice dismissal let me share a quote from 5 for you mate

Hmm. And the quote you gave me only adds what the this discussion?.

How does any of the methods outlined in the quote you give me consist of something ANY prison system in the world lives by?. Prison guards do not deal with little children who do what they are told they deal with murderers, life-time crimminals and death row inmates who are the scum of society. I dont see how making the prison system more efficent will make my life any worst. Anyhow, not a topic I lose sleep over

According to prisoner reports, methods commonly used by guards include: beatings using electric batons; rubber truncheons on hands and feet; long periods in handcuffs and/or leg irons, often tightened so as to cause pain; restriction of food to starvation levels; and long periods in solitary confinement. Furthermore, corrupt authorities at detention centers, prisons and labor camps have extorted large sums of money from families of detainees for the state's provision of "daily supplies" and "medical expenses."

This is a very interesting video about torture in American prisons. These tactics might look familar

You can not deny that China is exploiting its ability to force cheap labor out of its more unfortunate citizens for the 'good of the nation'.

Dont group a indivdual crime with the nation. The case was not a offically sanctioned event nor did the death sentence handed down indicate that China would ever approve of this crime. Its like me saying that an American company hiring people for "slave" wages is a example of America exploiting its miniorities for the Good of America. And my example I post previously "You can't blame a government because of actions of one man. Why dont we accuse the Austrian government because of that women locked by her father in the basement for so long? ". Anyway the story was twisted in a nice way so that it accuses the Chinese government of involvement and organisation without actually spelling it out in order to avoid a quick rebutal

First off this is NOT about comparing China to America it is SPECIFICALLY about the problem with Child Labor in China.

Actually its comparing working conditions from a third world country to a developed country which obviously shows a huge gap in pay and conditions. Americans might not like the fact that people in other countries dont have what they have. Next to nothing in America is not next to nothing in China. Basic staples and living expeses are so much cheaper in China that pay reflects how it cost to live.

But back to the point of child labour, its the western corporations like Wal-Mart Disney and Dell who are the ones short changing Chinese workers by directly employing them or through their out-sourcing partners. Offically the minimum wage is 55cents a hour which is not a huge amount and whoever is under it does not have offical sanction and thus how can the government be blamed if some sneaky manager short changes people or people are stupid enough to work for that amount. Actually you would be very lucky to get a job in China at this momment and anyone who gets a job wants to keep it, hence the ability to lower wages because of the amount of workers coming through. Its fairly appalling to think about the situation but people have to do what they have to do to survive. If I didn't regularly go to China myself than I would believe those reports, the problem is I go to China regularly and seen first hand the conditions, not very good (spartan springs to mine) but its not like some prison factory reports paint it out to be

It also highlights the abuses people suffer in Chinese labor camps.

Which bits of the article????. What abuses did it highlight?. The article just talks about how Clinton (being the egotist that he is) approved policies allowing China to steal American secrets, bypass trade regulations and mentions the slightest bit regarding prison labour makings American products such as "rubber-soled shoes, boots, kitchenware, toys, tools, men’s and women’s clothing, and sporting goods." etc .

It is the transcript for a US government committee meeting so the format is admittedly unusual but the information is NOT hard to find.

Oh, It looked like a bunch of unscripted articles copy and pasted together. Very vague, very anti-China, very bias. If you would accept my glossy Chinese events in China than I will accept you Hollywood doctored one. Maybe you have a different mentally than me but I dont believe anything the US has to say unless it is widely acknowledged information which they would not benefit from

You attempted to dismiss all of my links for one reason or another when they are all pretty good sources of information

Because they are

- Highly bias
- Most lack references
- Very vague in their accusations
- Value judgments
- Instill the idea that the government is behind everything that happens in China
- Lacking an argument (newsmax)

If you presented a neatural sources from aclaimed critics or a source from a very good source such as National geographic which actually research their claims first hand then I would have no problem. Every one of the sources you presented is sketchy at best. I suggest you watch the PBS documentry "China From The Inside" which gives a critical and extrodinary insight into China which is lacking in other publications

The double standard ty ou are applying

What double standards?. You mean the one of acknowledging both issues on an equal basis?. Like accepting that these things occur?







[edit on 13-8-2008 by chinawhite]