War in Georgia

reply to post by Fulcrum29

Good I'm glad he's dead. Such a tiny and poor country shouldn't have billionaires. The guy probably had more money than the entire GDP of the country if he's a billionaire. But instead of helping his country out in some way he lives in a posh estate/mansion in LONDON??? I'm glad the KGB got him.



Wow what a difference between communism and freedom. That is not fair that he waas a billionaire, therefore lets kill him and take it for ourselves. WOW MAN thank god I love freedom and not a commmunist like you.

reply to post by maloy


I agree too, it sounds a bit suspect to me aswell especially with Russia selling Nuclear technology off to Iran and now the Georgian president calling Bush in to help out. Iran might send a long range missile that does not quite reach and it happens to hit Isreal in the process. You have to be careful with these things because Like World wars of the past the conflicts just keep growing.
_________________________________________________

I know people won't look at Bible prophecy but I will add this angle for those interested.

Eziekiel 38 Theory put to the test.

What this article and peoples theories show is that they can see the connections of this alliance that Iran is building, one day it maybe be used to make war, one that end time believers think could happen. There maybe tensions now as I guess people around the world cannot deny it otherwise. The prophecies may not happen next week but the potholes are in place for everyone to get dragged into and Ezekiel, which is about Israel at the end of the ages and what circumstances it, holds with nations named. Some argue this Gog and Magog war is in 1000 years time during the peace process when Jesus rules the earth as stated in the Book of Revelations. But this war could still go ahead, if Iran still plays this poker game- It’s a Nuclear of Peace we want to kill you game then Israel might actually strike Iran cause a fall out of radiation by accident, The UN may gang up and say no Nuclear weapons allowed or we will attack anymore nations that will want to use them. Then all these nations would have to gather by means of manual fighting because by then the UN would monitor everything. So the war will be fought by a territorial means as Ezekiel mentions. Remember this is not Armageddon yet that is bigger.

A few delays prior to this may occur, it can happen next week, it could happen in 20 years time, but the tension is pulling till it snaps unless resolved.

Ezekiel 38:1-6 The word of the Lord came to me; Son of man, set your face against Gog, of the land of Magog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal; prophesy against him and say: 'This is what the Sovereign Lord says: I am against you, O Gog, chief prince of Meshech and Tubal. I will turn you around, put hooks in your jaws and bring you out with your whole army - your horsemen fully armed, and a great horde with large and small shields, all of them brandishing their swords. Persia, Cush and Put will be with them, all with shields and helmets, also Gomer with all its troops, and Beth Togarmah from the far north with all its troops - the many nations with you

2500 years ago – modern nation
Rosh - Russia
Magog- Central Asia
Meshech- Turkey
Tubal- Turkey (also southern Russia and Iran)
Persia -Iran
Ethiopia- (Cush) Sudan
Put- Libya

Gomer- Turkey
Many peoples with you- Other Islamic nations

All I am saying if this is right look out this is just one event with many roads leading to it. Yes you don’t have to believe but makes you wonder.

They built walls in the ancient times because there was no system to keep invaders out, and today there is no system to keep the invaders out so you resort to ancient methods all is well.

Temple mount had walls round it once.
Scotland too built a wall. I think America should make one for the Mexican boarder one made from concrete.

So let me see if I understand this correctly.

Russia does not support break away republics or the concept at all.
They did not want georgia leaving them, but could do nothing about it.

They support China and it's death threats if Twiaan decleares independence.

But then, they support a part of an idependent country trying to breakaway.

I would not be surprised if Russia finished the job and simply took over the whole country of Georgia.

Btw, if Russia's excuse is most people in break away regions want to be Russian, it's ok for Russia to attack Georgia.

BUT,

If Georgia wants to be part of nato-the majority of the population as well as the government- it is wrong of Georgia.

Bit of a double standard, eh Russia???

GEORGIA
Total personnel: 26,900
Main battle tanks (T-72): 82
Armoured personnel carriers: 139
Combat aircraft (Su-25): Seven
Heavy artillery pieces (including Grad rocket launchers): 95

RUSSIA
Total personnel: 641,000
Main battle tanks (various): 6,717
Armoured personnel carriers: 6,388
Combat aircraft (various): 1,206
Heavy artillery pieces (various): 7,550
Source: Jane's Sentinel Country Risk Assessments


From the above stats I don't think Georgia is going to hold out too long against the Russian Bear

Originally posted by EDWOOD
GEORGIA
Total personnel: 26,900
Main battle tanks (T-72): 82
Armoured personnel carriers: 139
Combat aircraft (Su-25): Seven
Heavy artillery pieces (including Grad rocket launchers): 95

RUSSIA
Total personnel: 641,000
Main battle tanks (various): 6,717
Armoured personnel carriers: 6,388
Combat aircraft (various): 1,206
Heavy artillery pieces (various): 7,550
Source: Jane's Sentinel Country Risk Assessments


From the above stats I don't think Georgia is going to hold out too long against the Russian Bear

Ed, I like most anyone, do not have any delusion that Georgia can hold off Russia.

Showing the insane amount of military equipment Russia has over Georgia is unneeded.

The only exception to the would be if they held back a nuke or 2.

[edit on 8/9/2008 by mrmonsoon]

Originally posted by Mdv2
In addition, I think you are far from objective. From previous threads it seems that you have close ties to Russia, explaining why you are not objective.

I am simply presenting the point of view of Russia's side. Objective it may not be, but the majority of people on ATS present the views and news from the Western side - which are not the least bit less objective than mine. Russia and Putin are a very favorite target on these boards - you know it well enough. There is a lot of misinformation regarding what is going on.

Originally posted by Mdv2
In a very clever way you avoid what Russia has said and done to Georgia as a direct result of turning to west rather than obeying Russia.

If you know Georgia's history since 1990, you will learn that Georgia has never obeyed Russia since becoming independent. However with Shevarnadze Georgia at least had a head on its shoulders, and could negotiate and compromise with Russia. Shevarnadze kept the fragile peace for many years.

And you cannot deny that Saakashvilli was installed to power by the U.S. Since then he gradually led the country to war. This has nothing to do with obeying Russia. This has to do with keeping ceasefire in the Caucasus powder keg. Yes - Georgia is unlucky that it has two breakaway republics which it cannot do anything with. But to start a war they cannot win for the republics they no longer need is careless, reckless, and damn foolish.

Originally posted by Mdv2
Russia cannot stand Georgia's pro western policy and is greatly annoyed by that.

Not true. Shevarnadze was pro-Western as well, yet he managed not to drive Georgia's relations with Russia into the ground. Russia is annoyed by Saakashvilli who is acting like a rabid dog on Pentagon's leash.

One thing is to be pro-Western. Another thing is to be a warmonger. As small and weak as Georgia is - it is a warmonger.

Originally posted by Mdv2
Gradually but quickly loses power over former sattelite states.

Russia lost power of satellite states in 1991. Except for a few Central Asian republics (Kazakhstan), it never had any power of these states, and each state went their own way. Yes - the new countries had to maintain good relations with Russia for economic reasons, at least untill they got accepted into EU and NATO. But Russia never execrised any control over Ukraine or Georgia. If it had, I assure you Crimea and Abkhazia would today be part of Russia.

Originally posted by Mdv2
Georgia has been bullied long enough by Russia that a situation like this could not stay out. Georgia has walked into Russia's trap with open eyes.

Please point out how Russia has bullied Georgia prior to this. I do not see where you are coming from.

Originally posted by Mdv2
Now its time for Russia to show the world they are a world power that should be played around with.

I never denied that Russia is twisting this war to their own advantage - that is absolutely true. This is beneficial for Russia for several reasons. One is help Medvedev establish himself as a decisive leader. Another is to show U.S. that Russia is actively opposed to the buffer zone U.S. is trying to create around Russia. And another reason is to see how well their military operates today.

But remember - Georgia innitiated the war by murdering over a thousand civilians in Tskhinvalli. That is devastating to a tiny republic of S. Ossetia. S. Ossetia appealed for help, and no one besides Russia could help them. Georgians were undeniably ready to start ethnical cleansing.

Originally posted by Mdv2
Russia has difficulties accepting it's currently no superpower anymore and sees its power fading without being able to answer apart from cutting off the oil/gas tab.

Why does it always have to come back to this in every arguement concerning Russia? I do not even want to bother replying to this. This has nothing to do with being a superpower. Or are you saying that only superpowers can wage war today?

Was Turkey attempting to be a superpower when it attacked Cyprus? Was UK attempting to be a superpower when it went to war in the Falklands? No they were settling national territorial disputes.

Originally posted by Mdv2
Russia is very hypocritical as they have crushed independence figters in Chechnya multiple times

True true. But is U.S. and NATO not being hypocritical after crushing Serbia's attempts to hold on to Kosovo. As I said in the beginning of this thread - THIS ALL TIES BACK TO KOSOVO. Tables have turned in Kosovo, and Russia is using U.S.'s and NATO's game. This is eariliy similar to Kosovo, with Russia acting exactly like NATO. How can people not see this?

Originally posted by Mdv2
and now they support (what they define as terrorists) in Georgia.

Russia has never supported an independent S. Ossetia and Abkhazia - and they do not now. Russia wants the republics to be fully autonomous on common terms, but to remain parts of Georgia. That is what the peace talks were about, when Saaka started shooting in the middle of them.

Notice that neither Russia nor S. Ossetia are declaring the break away republic's independence.

From two hours ago;

17:05 - Abkhazian official have announced that the republic’s troops have entered the Gail district of Georgia.

Tbilisi expect an air strike very soon - but I'm not sure if Russia will strike the capital. Especially with a UN delegation heading to the region.

Russian Today

[edit on 9-8-2008 by infinite]

Originally posted by inxion
Our mr Mart Laar knows Georgia very well and has been personal advisor for mr Saakashvili - he said that the initiative for the war was done by ossetians and this was the last drop for georgians, so thats why this conflict grew to bloodshed.

Tell me - what could S. Ossetians have done on 7-8-08 to proke Georgians to start artillery indiscriminate bombardment of a city with mostly civilians, in which hundreds of people die in the first hours? What will Mr. Laar say to that?

This seems to be a war with escalating response. Perhaps S. Ossetians carried out a few minor attacks (although no major Georgian casualties have been reported prior to shelling the city). Then Georgia responds with massive artillery shelling. Then Russia respons by moving in the troops to S. Ossetia and air attacks.

Either way the majority of casualties so far have been caused by Georgia artillery, and consist of innocent civilians. Georgiana and Russian casualties are far lower.

Originally posted by inxion
He knows the Russian politics, Georgian politics, so I trust this man.

As if he doesn't add his own spin to the story... Honestly there are no neutral views on this war at this point.

Originally posted by inxion
Russia is always behind South Ossetia, and has very concrete interests keeping this region unstable.

What interests would that be? On the contrary Russia is affraid that unrest there will echoe into Chechnya, Ingushetia and Dagestan, which may renew their separatist struggles.

Originally posted by inxion
I agree that OP is not pretty objective, and has close ties with Russia

Hell yeah - I am sitting in the Kremlin's offices with a briefing from the President in front of me labeled "Top Secrect Russian Propaganda Campaign". I hope Medvedev doesn't fire me to acknowledging this.

There are actuall thousands of us sitting in the Kremlin right now trying to disinform poor Americans.

Originally posted by inxion
has sympathy towards Russia and against US and western.

Well it is a nice contrast to the rest of this board isn't it then. Ying and yang. You can't find the truth without listening to both sides of the story.

And please add propagandist in you description of me at the end. It is customary policy these days to attach that label to anyone who presents their side of the story.

Originally posted by inxion
Please try to be more neutral about what's really going on in Georgia.

How so? I am presenting what I see, what I read from multiple sources, and what I gather from my contacts in Georgia and Abkhazia. I was watching this story for weeks before anyone here was. I have researched the background thoroughly. I predicted the start of the war 12 hours before it happened. I think i know what is going on in Georgia.

Inter-fax reports that ships loaded with troops and heavy weapons are leaving Turkey as well as many divisions of army moving north.
Turkey could put a serious damper on Russian plans.

Russia needs to stop bombing civilians in Georgia proper, I have seen many examples of it so don't even try to argue the point.

They are trying to completely cut off Georgia with ships and have even tried to bomb the oil pipeline that Europe depends on but they missed it, Thank god for that.

From all the evidence that I have found it was the 150 Russian tanks that entered into South Ossetia territory (Georgian territory) before Georgia responded with its rocket attack on the capital there witch is loaded with terrorist anyway.
Seems to me that Russia is the one who planned this war for the start of the Olympics not Georgia and that is true Soviet style, Putin's style.

Russia has refused to back down and they are even increasing their attacks in a broad way so I hope Turkey is headed there to back up Georgia. Oh and the U.S. is going to escort the Georgia troops from Iraq to Georgia. I would not be shocked to see two Carrier strike groups enter the Black Sea very soon from the U.S. Just to send Russia a message to back off.

Where am I gonna get my Georgia Peaches now... haha sorry couldn't resist at all. It is funny to see Russia in an invasion, but I believe they are all fleeing into Russia, The KGB might be back..... Perfect timing in all of it though.

Originally posted by Sky watcher
Inter-fax reports that ships loaded with troops and heavy weapons are leaving Turkey as well as many divisions of army moving north.

Turkey could put a serious damper on Russian plans.

Sweet. I always wanted to see what Istambul looks up gone up in flames .

Seriously what is Turkey's business there? Georgia was never an ally of Turkey. Georgia is not part of the turkic language league. I seriously doubt any intervention from Turkey. Unless that is how U.S. wants to bring NATO into this - which will be very very foolish. I am not even sure Georgians want Turkey on their soil.

Or maybe its an entourage to evacuate Saakashvilli from the country.

Originally posted by Sky watcher
Russia needs to stop bombing civilians in Georgia proper

It is not bombing civilians. It is bombing military and government targets, exactly as NATO has done when they attacked Serbia in 1998. Civilian deaths so far are few and far in between in Georgia. Yet Georgia managed to wipe out a sizeable portion of S. Ossetia's civilian population.

Originally posted by Sky watcher
I have seen many examples of it so don't even try to argue the point.

Pictures? Proof? Saakashvilli mouthing off does not amount to news. It amounts to Saakashvilli mouthing off. Tomorrow he will tell you that 50 million Georgians are killed.

Originally posted by Sky watcher
They are trying to completely cut off Georgia with ships and have even tried to bomb the oil pipeline that Europe depends on but they missed it, Thank god for that.

That pipeline is a speck for Europe. Energy infrastructure is developed enough as it is to prevent any major effect on Europe. Russia's targets were likely portions of Georgian military.

Originally posted by Sky watcher
From all the evidence that I have found it was the 150 Russian tanks that entered into South Ossetia territory (Georgian territory) before Georgia responded with its rocket attack on the capital there witch is loaded with terrorist anyway.

Well your evidence is utter BS. It is now a fact that Georgia commenced shelling, 10 hours after which Russian troops entered S. Ossetia. Stay with the news please.

Originally posted by Sky watcher
Seems to me that Russia is the one who planned this war for the start of the Olympics not Georgia and that is true Soviet style, Putin's style.

Originally posted by Sky watcher
Russia has refused to back down and they are even increasing their attacks in a broad way so I hope Turkey is headed there to back up Georgia.

Don't bet on it. Turkey is probably getting ready to invade Bulgaria and the Balkans in their imperialistic attempts to restablish the Ottoman empire - Attaturk style. That is as realistic as your claims that Russia attacked Georgia first.

Originally posted by Sky watcher
I would not be shocked to see two Carrier strike groups enter the Black Sea

I would love to see a carrier fleet in the black sea. Can you say sitting ducks? That's like placing a destroyer in the bath tub. Of course if those fat floating cans with their whole entourage can squeeze through the Bosphorous. Perhaps they could assist Turkey in invading the Balkans.

Originally posted by Sky watcher
very soon from the U.S. Just to send Russia a message to back off.

U.S. has been sending messages to back off to the entire world for years now. All this while starting new wars and threating more wars. When will the U.S. finally receive the message to back off from somebody.

reply to post by Sky watcher


If Turkey joins the war then this has the potential to become huge. Turkey has a lot of internal instability at the moment and this could either make them or break them. Also it is a NATO member which could drag other NATO members in the struggle. I don't think that all NATO countries will follow though, for example Greece is known for its friendly ties with Russia and not so friendly history with Turkey. Also the PKK (the Kurdish rebel group) may take advantage to cause more problems inside Turkey.

I hope that Turkey won't join because the world will become polarized again and who knows how it could end...

I don't understand why Russia doesn't send Georgia a ultimatum before they attack. The US does it to all of their enemies. Sounds like a premeditated plan to me, no matter if truce was called.

[edit on 9-8-2008 by amfirst]

Originally posted by gnothiseauton
I hope that Turkey won't join because the world will become polarized again and who knows how it could end...

Don't worry it won't. The only thing Turkey could realistically do is move their ships to port of Poti to secure the oil pipeline there. Turkey's only interest in Georgia is that pipeline.

Demonstrations in Tbilisi, Republic of Georgia

A demonstration for Peace.

Link

reply to post by maloy

Originally posted by gnothiseauton
I hope that Turkey won't join because the world will become polarized again and who knows how it could end...


Don't worry it won't. The only thing Turkey could realistically do is move their ships to port of Poti to secure the oil pipeline there. Turkey's only interest in Georgia is that pipeline.

I think you are right. They are probably just monitoring the pipeline.

Yikes! Things are heating up again..

Georgia resumes shelling of South Osstian capital

The fighting in South Osstian capital, Tskhinvali, is continuing with Georgian troops once again entering the city. There are reports that Georgian Special Forces have been throwing grenades into basements where women and children are sheltering.

Georgian soldiers are also reportedly trying to take control of a road leading from Tskhinvali to the Russian republic of North Ossetia.

reply to post by maloy


www.daylife.com...

news.bbc.co.uk...

news.bbc.co.uk...

Yes they missed their targets so many times that one would have to think, Did they do this on purpose? I have seen a good picture of one building with its face blown off and a nice big crater in front of it where one missed.

Anyone got a source on the reports Turkey is moving troops to the area?

I'm trying to find the story on Turkish media - but no luck

Does anyone think this could possible escalate and become WW3?


Any idea if the US is going to help Georgia?


I dunno but I have an inkling this is going to blow up into something far far bigger.

The OP shows nothing but bias. Non the less its a good topic/discussion so flagged and starred.