Raising Kids Without Religion... A cop-out?

reply to post by NOTurTypical


So no morals existed prior to Christianity? I just don't believe that.

Originally posted by asmeone2

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Do you realize you are using "faith" to believe it isn't true? And in fact, it takes more faith to believe it false that to believe it true?

Heck, in a court of law if I had 6 eye witness testimonies from people who claimed I said that I would kill a certain man I'd be found guilty by a jury.

Yes, I do know what I'm using my faith for.

I suppose this is one of those magic moment where I'm sposed to go, OMG! I've been misapplying my faith all along! It's time to praise JESUS!

Um. No.

Your six witneses wouldn't get you convicted of murder unless you had actually committed murder, and even then, the jury would rest more upon whether or not the evidence corroborates their stories and there are not inconsistancies between them. I'm not sure what your point is there.

Cute straw man argument. I never said "convicted of murder."

It is a crime to say you plan to or are going to kill someone. If I had 6 eyewitnesses claiming I said that I would be convicted.

reply to post by Missing Blue Sky


Thank you for your insights and anecdotes.


I think I mentioned already that this thread was directed more towards protestand evangelicals than at Catholics. To generalize heavily, the Catholics I've known have been confident enough in their beliefs to leave mine alone, wheras the evangelicals seem to have an overwhelming need to own my soul. I get the impression that while Catholics put immense importance on their rituals, once you get beyond the basics they aren't going to debate you on every single modicum of your beliefs.

That beings said, I wouldn't raise my kids with the same level of religion as you, but I give you many props for also teaching them the documentable historic side of it.

Originally posted by MaMaa
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

So no morals existed prior to Christianity? I just don't believe that.

I'm glad you don't. I never claimed it.

Morals of what is "good" or "evil" came from God. Man gained the "knowledge" of the difference when Adam ate the forbidden fruit.

Christianity began some 4,000 years after that.

reply to post by NOTurTypical


Yes you did:

Everything you call a "moral" today is found in one of the commandments.

And that thing about the toilet was just a joke....

Originally posted by justamomma

Originally posted by NOTurTypicalNothing will convince you if you want to believe it isn't true. Absolutely nothing.

Do you realize you are using "faith" to believe it isn't true? And in fact, it takes more faith to believe it false that to believe it true?

Heck, in a court of law if I had 6 eye witness testimonies from people who claimed I said that I would kill a certain man I'd be found guilty by a jury.

Huh? NOTHING?? I don't agree with this. You speak about his disciples who apparently got to see it, so if this is true, then wouldn't it stand to reason that if I WANT to believe, I should be able to see as well??

Your faith is nothing more than a belief in what some men said that you have never met. That to me sounds foolish and unwise, if for no other reason than the implications it could mean for you and other "believers" when/if the truth is that this was a big pile of lies to bring you into submission and rob you of experiencing life as you were meant to experience it.

Well, duuuh, that is what a belief is. That is what faith is. Also remember, "proof" is relative.

You have faith in gravity, and radio waves, you can't see these things, you place your faith that they exist because you see the effects and you believe because some textbook told you they exist. Same thing with God/Jesus. I can definately see in the world that it was designed and not just some "accident".

If God took you to heaven right now, talked to you, you met Jesus, and flew back to Earth you could either see it as proof, or believe you were dreaming it all. "Proof" is relative.

hi - a pretty good way of adjusting a childs ` moral compass ` , without resorting to " because the sky daddy says so " is to simply ask them :

how would you feel if somebody did < insert behaviour > to you ?

and if [ as hoped ] they confirm that they would not like it ask

well why are you doing it to something or someone else ?

not garunteed to work 100% ofthe time - but it will cover a heck of a lot of the critical issues

reply to post by NOTurTypical


I get what you mean, but being that I don't quite know that I believe in the bible anymore I don't know that I believe the world started with adam and eve. Thus putting the whole idea of learning the difference of good and evil up in the air. And of course if that is up in the air then so is the idea of where morality came from.

I can honestly say I just don't know. I have taken my boys to church, but after one too many bad experiences I have sworn off religion. My kids are not being raised in a religious home. Maybe that is wrong, maybe I am wrong. But I certainly can understand the original posters concerns. I would not want my mother being all preachy to my boys, not that she would.

Originally posted by asmeone2
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

Yes you did:

Everything you call a "moral" today is found in one of the commandments.

And that thing about the toilet was just a joke....

The Commandments were given to Moses. "Christianity" started after Jesus died.

I never claimed there were no morals or commandments before Christianity. That's a lie and a straw man argument.

reply to post by NOTurTypical


So, what, is that part of the bible invalid somehow?

Originally posted by asmeone2
reply to post by shauny

 

It took me so long to get past the 'go to Hell' fear, but it was in the end one of the most liberating things.

I don't want to raise my children by telling them they aren't ever going to be good enough.

I want them to grow up knwing that they will be exactly as good as they choose to be.

My religion teaches the opposite, each and every one of us fails to meet the standard for salvation, so God sent His Son to redeem us. We all make mistakes, and I think universally all people try to do the right thing. But we do make mistakes, none the less. In my faith we call these mistakes sin. In suffering there is much learning, and it hurts to admit we were wrong, or we sinned.

The religion I study teaches me ways to pray for and receive God's Grace. With Grace I can try to avoid sin. But if I do sin,(which I do constantly) forgiveness is ALWAYS there if you just ask. Hell is the separation from God, everyone's personal choice.

I want my children growing up knowing they are loved SO much, they do not have to strive to be perfect to get to heaven...they have to strive to be honest with themselves and God. Admitting what we have done and what we have failed to do. Honesty and Communication are so much more important than self esteem. You can not esteem yourself well(be as good as you want to be) if your are honest about your failings. But you can love well and be loved by being honest. Love trumps self esteem. God is love, self esteem is fleeting.

Originally posted by MaMaa
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

I get what you mean, but being that I don't quite know that I believe in the bible anymore I don't know that I believe the world started with adam and eve. Thus putting the whole idea of learning the difference of good and evil up in the air. And of course if that is up in the air then so is the idea of where morality came from.

I can honestly say I just don't know. I have taken my boys to church, but after one too many bad experiences I have sworn off religion. My kids are not being raised in a religious home. Maybe that is wrong, maybe I am wrong. But I certainly can understand the original posters concerns. I would not want my mother being all preachy to my boys, not that she would.

Don't turn your back on God because some man sinned and did you wrong. Just learn from that experience. I bet that if you looked in the scriptures you could pinpoint where that person or persons were saying/doing opposite from what Christ told them to. Therefore it isn't the fault of Jesus Christ, but the devil.

Remember too, Jesus hardly taught in a church, or did he approve of the Pharisees and their ridiculous adhearance to the law, law, law.

Jesus met with friends and taught in the open, in the wilderness. Assuming he was God, (which I do), what that signifies is that it is vital for our relationship to be between him and us. Man and his rules can and will get in the way of the message Christ gave to us. If you find that a person did/said soemthing contrary to Christ then it isn't his fault, it's that man's fault so don't blame God himself.

reply to post by Missing Blue Sky


To specifically targate Christianity here, I don't beleive that we need an intermediary, Jesus or otherwise, to get to God. I thinkthat if God can't come directly to us, he isn't much of a god.

But, I respect that you do beleive that. Don't take it as a personal slight to you.

Originally posted by asmeone2
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

So, what, is that part of the bible invalid somehow?

Explain a little more pls.

reply to post by NOTurTypical


YOu implied that the 10 comandments were the basis of Christian morality.

Then you turn around and say that isn't a part of Christianity.

reply to post by NOTurTypical


Me and god are good, it is religion that I have issues with. I was taught growing up that the bible was the literal god breathed word of god. I just can't imagine the god I know would be what the bible says. It feels like there is something missing, but that is off topic. How can someone teach their children that Christianity is the one and only way to god when your not so certain of it yourself, kwim?

On the other hand I would never in a gagillion years tell my mother any of this. She is hoping she doesn't actually die, but rather we are all just taken in the rapture. I would not want to tell my mom to back off either, that might hurt her and it isn't something I would ever want to do. Aside from my hubby, my mother is my best friend. So I can see how it would be hard for the OP to handle this. Juggling your own beliefs with trying to know what is the right thing to do with your own children while still being respectful to your mother and the way you were raised. It is a lot to take in especially if you are not 100% sure of your own beliefs.

Originally posted by NOTurTypicalYou have faith in gravity, and radio waves, you can't see these things, you place your faith that they exist because you see the effects and you believe because some textbook told you they exist. Same thing with God/Jesus. I can definately see in the world that it was designed and not just some "accident".

No, it is not the same thing as god/jesus. The proof of things such as radio waves etc is from active effects...... not based on a feeling/hunch that it is true.

If God took you to heaven right now, talked to you, you met Jesus, and flew back to Earth you could either see it as proof, or believe you were dreaming it all. "Proof" is relative.

well, if jesus is what you are claiming, it couldn't hurt for him to at least try, now could it? I mean, he supposedly proved it to Thomas when he asked. Is this god a selective god?

Understand that I believe in a Creator whole heartedly, but I can't put him in a box of human limitations. I don't see myself as being the authority to tell others this is how you should believe in him and this is who/what he is. Organized religion is just that.. designed to organize how you believe and what you believe.

Proof can be relative, but it also should have some objective qualities to it as well or what is the point of us having intelligence? If I am to follow something based on my feelings about it or because I am told to, then I am going against my design (and ultimately my designer).

Originally posted by asmeone2
reply to post by Missing Blue Sky

 

To specifically targate Christianity here, I don't beleive that we need an intermediary, Jesus or otherwise, to get to God. I thinkthat if God can't come directly to us, he isn't much of a god.

But, I respect that you do beleive that. Don't take it as a personal slight to you.

That is the fundamental position of Christianity though and the difference between us and those who follow Judaism.

God did come to man in the flesh. His name was Jesus. The Jews all were looking for the messiah to fulfill his second coming prophecies, when he would rule, the King of Kings. And that MAJOR oversight was the fault of the Pharisees, they all preached that the messiah would come to RULE. You have to remember that the average hebrew was illiterate, they had to rely on the Pharasees to tell them what the scriptures said and the Pharisees abused that power over them for their own greedy and prideful purposes.

That's why Jesus was so set against them, they robbed the Jews of their messiah.

Originally posted by asmeone2
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

YOu implied that the 10 comandments were the basis of Christian morality.

Then you turn around and say that isn't a part of Christianity.

That is precisely what I meant, a straw man. You took what I actually said and turned it around. Then you shot down those claims that you made up.

I STATED that every moral we have to day is based on God's commandments.

Christianity is following Jesus Christ. Period.

Originally posted by MaMaa
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

Me and god are good, it is religion that I have issues with. I was taught growing up that the bible was the literal god breathed word of god. I just can't imagine the god I know would be what the bible says. It feels like there is something missing, but that is off topic. How can someone teach their children that Christianity is the one and only way to god when your not so certain of it yourself, kwim?

On the other hand I would never in a gagillion years tell my mother any of this. She is hoping she doesn't actually die, but rather we are all just taken in the rapture. I would not want to tell my mom to back off either, that might hurt her and it isn't something I would ever want to do. Aside from my hubby, my mother is my best friend. So I can see how it would be hard for the OP to handle this. Juggling your own beliefs with trying to know what is the right thing to do with your own children while still being respectful to your mother and the way you were raised. It is a lot to take in especially if you are not 100% sure of your own beliefs.

Then remember that Jesus had a big problem with religion too. You're no different. The reformers had a major problem with it too, they left Catholicism because it turned into the Christian version of the Pharisees. Instead of Catholics being illiterate, they were ordered not to read the Bible, they also added books to the Bible that weren't supposed to be included.

If you cannot find a church that makes you feel the love of Jesus, or doesn't teach what he taught then it's a good idea to leave. But Jesus's message is in plain sight, you don't need a church to have a personal relationship with him. You only need the Holy Bible. A church is only good for fellowship with other believers.