Raising Kids Without Religion... A cop-out?

Originally posted by justamomma

Originally posted by NOTurTypicalYou have faith in gravity, and radio waves, you can't see these things, you place your faith that they exist because you see the effects and you believe because some textbook told you they exist. Same thing with God/Jesus. I can definately see in the world that it was designed and not just some "accident".

No, it is not the same thing as god/jesus. The proof of things such as radio waves etc is from active effects...... not based on a feeling/hunch that it is true.

If God took you to heaven right now, talked to you, you met Jesus, and flew back to Earth you could either see it as proof, or believe you were dreaming it all. "Proof" is relative.

well, if jesus is what you are claiming, it couldn't hurt for him to at least try, now could it? I mean, he supposedly proved it to Thomas when he asked. Is this god a selective god?

Understand that I believe in a Creator whole heartedly, but I can't put him in a box of human limitations. I don't see myself as being the authority to tell others this is how you should believe in him and this is who/what he is. Organized religion is just that.. designed to organize how you believe and what you believe.

Proof can be relative, but it also should have some objective qualities to it as well or what is the point of us having intelligence? If I am to follow something based on my feelings about it or because I am told to, then I am going against my design (and ultimately my designer).

I see active effects DAILY, my life is wonderful, I feel his presence, of course I have effects, that is PRECISELY why I brought those 2 things up. Jesus promises if we seek him with all our heart he will: change us and he will "manifest Himself" to us. Not physically, but by answering our prayers. I cannot count how many prayers He has answered.

Secondly, he showed Thomas because he hadn't left yet for heaven. He did leave us with the Holy Spirit when he left, that is always with us. We worship God in Spirit. And I for one can definitely tell you that I know I'm filled with the Spirit.

he also says we can "test" him with our tithe. That if we do so faithfully he will bless us many more times over.

Try it for a year, God promises you can test him on it. If you are worse off financially after that year then you can rest assured that it's all bogus. Guaranteed.

Originally posted by NOTurTypicalYou only need the Holy Bible.

There are many who have lived and died since jesus supposedly walked the earth who had no access to a bible. So, according to the above statement, they would be screwed for not having the man written book that tells them all they need to know.

To say that a person can't have access to their Creator without the bible or without jesus as the mediator is a pretty bold statement.

This is in light of the word "need" you placed in there. YOu are trying to dictate the terms of having a personal relationship with the Creator.... in other words, you are trying to control.

[edit on 8-8-2008 by justamomma]

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
You have faith in gravity, and radio waves, you can't see these things, you place your faith that they exist because you see the effects and you believe because some textbook told you they exist.

You're standing (or sitting), aren't you? Do you have to have "faith" for the gravity to work? Gravity has always been here.
You watch TV or listen to radios, right? Do you need faith for them to work?
What textbook? Physics? People still stood long before those textbooks appear. Long before people even pondered about the nature of gravity.

Same thing with God/Jesus.

Uh no. There are many gods to choose from. Show me that any one of the gods had effect on us and nature, then we'll talk.

I can definately see in the world that it was designed and not just some "accident".

Now, that is a whole different subject altogether. I do believe that the universe has intelligence.
Now, show me that Jesus = intelligent designer.
I can try to convince you that Buddha is the intelligent designer.

See, what you are doing is putting God in a box and label it.

If God took you to heaven right now, talked to you, you met Jesus, and flew back to Earth you could either see it as proof, or believe you were dreaming it all. "Proof" is relative.

If he did, then he has a lot of explaining to do. A LOT.

Originally posted by asmeone2

Originally posted by sobek52
Religion is not needed in order to be raised with good moral values.

No, it isn't. It irks me that many religions assume that they have a corner on good values. Most of them are essentially the same.

Religion not studied and understood is shallow and will breed confusion and guilt. Jewish people, Islamic people and Catholic people who study their religion...really learn it, know it is not at all about Morality. Morality is a possible byproduct. Religion is about eternal life. So we prepare for grade school, we plan for college, we save for retirement, but do we prepare for life eternal?

reply to post by kidflash2008


Religion is only good as a guidline to teach the fundamentals of how we as a society wish everyone to interact with each other, to keep a peaceful co-existance. Religion is good only in that aspect.

The line is drawn there though for me. I don't believe in Supernatural issues...

Originally posted by justamomma

Originally posted by NOTurTypicalYou only need the Holy Bible.

There are many who have lived and died since jesus supposedly walked the earth who had no access to a bible. So, according to the above statement, they would be screwed for not having the man written book that tells them all they need to know.

To say that a person can't have access to their Creator without the bible or without jesus as the mediator is a pretty bold statement.

This is in light of the word "need" you placed in there. YOu are trying to dictate the terms of having a personal relationship with the Creator.... in other words, you are trying to control.

[edit on 8-8-2008 by justamomma]

This isn't absolute, but a good answer to your Q: And after reading it I remember a story a missionary told the congregation when he returned from a jungle trip. When the missionaries showed the villagers a picture of Jesus they went nuts and cried, they claimed they had seen that face in the clouds and were scared. God's ways are perfect, and he can definitely reach even those lost in the jungles.

www.allaboutgod.com...

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

I see active effects DAILY, my life is wonderful, I feel his presence, of course I have effects, that is PRECISELY why I brought those 2 things up. Jesus promises if we seek him with all our heart he will: change us and he will "manifest Himself" to us. Not physically, but by answering our prayers. I cannot count how many prayers He has answered.

What do you say to those who feel the presence of their different gods and angels? Maybe even aliens?

he also says we can "test" him with our tithe. That if we do so faithfully he will bless us many more times over.

Have you ever heard of the law of attraction?

Try it for a year, God promises you can test him on it. If you are worse off financially after that year then you can rest assured that it's all bogus. Guaranteed.

Try what others have promised and we'll talk.

Originally posted by NOTurTypicalhe also says we can "test" him with our tithe. That if we do so faithfully he will bless us many more times over.

Try it for a year, God promises you can test him on it. If you are worse off financially after that year then you can rest assured that it's all bogus. Guaranteed.

Alright..... then I can rest assured that it is all bogus. Remember, as I have stated before I was a practicing christian for many years. I tithed faithfully and struggled financially.

I find that since I quit believing in fairy tales, I don't struggle quite as much bc I quit giving away my money to the church and started taking more personal responsibility.

reply to post by Deaf Alien

You're standing (or sitting), aren't you? Do you have to have "faith" for the gravity to work? Gravity has always been here.

Yeah, I know. I said "you see the effects".

Uh no. There are many gods to choose from. Show me that any one of the gods had effect on us and nature, then we'll talk.

Pagans say there are "many". Common sense says that there can be only one omnipotent, omnipresent God.

Now, that is a whole different subject altogether. I do believe that the universe has intelligence.
Now, show me that Jesus = intelligent designer.
I can try to convince you that Buddha is the intelligent designer.

See, what you are doing is putting God in a box and label it.

Buddah? There is God and Satan. Do you ever wonder why all the other religions other than Christianity all have the same symbol or "mark" to them? Does that strike you as odd?

reply to post by asmeone2


No Offense taken. The Son was a physical manifestation to prove Gods love . ATS'ers should lovethat, physical proof and all that jazz. It is part of the Jewish tradition that a Jewish King would come and save the Jews for all time. Jesus was a fulfillment of the prophesy.

Semantic point here: Jesus is not an intermediary...He is one with God, He existed with and in God before time, with and in the Holy Spirit. This is the Trinity. So GOD did do it. Maybe you think the Trinity is a faulty idea. I would have to brush up on my St. Augustine books to discuss that further ( and you probable do not want that anyway).

I have personal mediaries who I talk to: My Mom, St. Padre Pio, Mary the Mother of Jesus and St. Nicholas. I pray to God directly, but when I meditate I talk to these people who I believe have eternal life. I know they can hear me. So when I am busy during the day and making terrible mistakes, hurting peoples feelings, cutting someone off in traffic, i have asked these people (souls) who I know love me to pray for me when I have these problems. My daughters prayed to a litany of saints and had a miraculous healing. I know that sounds pretty thick and very bible thumpy...but we are talking about what we teach our kids.

Originally posted by asmeone2
Some background. When I had my kids I talked to my mom, who is a very devout, and very evangelical, Christain, and explained that I did not want her to attempt to witness to the children. I was very careful to explain that I was not trying to exclude them from her own religious beleifs but to prevent them from learnign to follow a beleif system dogmatically. If they were to follow any religion, I want it to be because they have a conviction to do so, not because some family member follows it or someone has pressured or scared them into it.

Her opinion is that this is a cop-out because I do not intend to teach them moral values in accordance with any religious values (specifically, hers.) I beleive it is more of a cop-out to attempt to force children to beleive as you do, instead of allowing them the opportunity to live a bit and form a sincere dedication to their faith. I would think that God would want true converts, not drones.

Thoughts?

I do not believe children should be taught religion. I had the worst experience with it. Heck I thought demons were coming to get me everynight. It wasnt until I learned religion is man made and denounced it all that I had no problems sleeping in the dark. Im sorry but if I cant even goto sleep at night then I dont function the way I was meant to. Which that in itself proves religion is false, atleast for me.

I hated my parents for brain washing me, so badly. I still think they have mental issues because of it. If I would have been lead to choose for myself we would have a better relationship and I wouldnt have had psychological scarring from BS religion to deal with for years of my life.

Only the strong can over come religion. Its a cycle and you spread it, infact it tells you you have to continue the disease / virus by forcing it on your kids.

Originally posted by justamomma

Originally posted by NOTurTypicalhe also says we can "test" him with our tithe. That if we do so faithfully he will bless us many more times over.

Try it for a year, God promises you can test him on it. If you are worse off financially after that year then you can rest assured that it's all bogus. Guaranteed.

Alright..... then I can rest assured that it is all bogus. Remember, as I have stated before I was a practicing christian for many years. I tithed faithfully and struggled financially.

I find that since I quit believing in fairy tales, I don't struggle quite as much bc I quit giving away my money to the church and started taking more personal responsibility.

Were you following Christ with all your heart in everything you did? Were you living below your means? were you in debt at the time? Just because you tithe that doesn't mean you can spend up all your availible capital and expect God to give it back, part of following Christ is also living up to all his other wise teachings.

Can a gambler tithe and expect to be blessed with richness? It's not simply tithing only, it's following everything you can possibly follow and tithing as well. See what I mean? Many tims we are also punished financially.

Just wanted to add that I too choose to not raise my children exposed to religion and have never regretted it.

They know they have a choice in this matter and also choose (so far) to have no formal religious faith.

Rhain

Originally posted by NOTurTypicalWere you following Christ with all your heart in everything you did? Were you living below your means? were you in debt at the time? Just because you tithe that doesn't mean you can spend up all your availible capital and expect God to give it back, part of following Christ is also living up to all his other wise teachings.

Can a gambler tithe and expect to be blessed with richness? It's not simply tithing only, it's following everything you can possibly follow and tithing as well. See what I mean? Many tims we are also punished financially.

Funny how god can promise something like give tithe and he will bless me, but the minute he doesn't bless me, suddenly it is bc there are all these stipulations that were on it I wasn't informed of when the promise was "put out there."

OR... just maybe bc it wasn't god that made that promise, but man who claimed to be speaking on behalf of god.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Yeah, I know. I said "you see the effects".

Of course you do. Do you need belief for that?

Pagans say there are "many". Common sense says that there can be only one omnipotent, omnipresent God.

My point is, there are many different beliefs all over the world. Which one is correct?

There may be only one God. However, people have attempted to put it in a box and label it. What you are doing is essentially this:

"Hey! Take a look at this box! This is God and Jesus. This has such a profound effect on my life! Remember, if you don't believe in this, you will suffer eternal damnation in fire!"

Buddah? There is God and Satan. Do you ever wonder why all the other religions other than Christianity all have the same symbol or "mark" to them? Does that strike you as odd?

Symbol? Mark to them? Please explain.

[edit on 8-8-2008 by Deaf Alien]

Jesus Christ. (pardon the pun)

"You can't see gravity"- well, no but we have scientific data to confirm it exists. If Christianity is all about "eternal life", then you're all more power-hungry than I thought.

You know, I was depressed once, but I (not god) decided to look on the bright side and became happy. I'm not so weak as to give credit to a god that never answered any of my prayers. Now, I could easily tell people it was god that helped me get better, but I'M NOT INSANE.

For being such a wonderful god, he sure screwed up making us.

Stop trying to claim a fictional book as true.

Anything Christians can't relate to in the bible they say things like "Well, I don't think that's what he meant." Stop picking out sections that support your claims and leaving out the contradictions. Your religion is just a copy of a copy of a copy. Lost in translation are these children of god.

When you people grow strong enough to take responsibility for your own actions, I guess then I could have a reasonable conversation.

Bottom line, OP, you are a fantastic mother. I seriously hope none of this nonsense is getting to you, and I'm deeply sorry for taking part in it. You have all my respect and then some.

Ah, our mothers are terrible people hey? Trying to indoctrinate us in their religion

My mother asks me on a regular basis when am I coming back to church. She's a devout Anglican Christian and she's in the choir and other church organisations. Strangely enough none of her 5 kids turned out to be devout Christians. My 2 brothers are not involved in any religion (same as our dad actually). When I explained to my sisters what a pantheist is (when they found out I was one) the older one of them said she thinks she is one as well. My baby sister says she might also be leaning that way but hasn't made up her mind yet. She's 27 btw. Her boyfriend who lives with her is a "loose Catholic" as I think he calls it. Not a regular church goer either. None of us discusses religion with our mom for obvious reasons

As for my son, his mom was always an open-minded Christian which is a rare thing indeed. She has now become a devout Christian as her fiancé is. Since his mom is a Christian my son is being raised as one and I don't have much say in that matter. He's only 6 so I don't want to embroil him in a religious battle so I've decided to let things be.

As for child-rearing I believe preteen children can't really make this decision yet so they have to be guided one way or another. If you don't somebody else will....

I will tell you one thing... I wish my parents have never forced religion on me. I still have problems even to this day.

My father was a baptist pastor. My mom was a teacher at a christian school.

There are many times when I refused to go to church and I got punished for it. I was dragged to the church.

Please, please do not force religion on kids. This is child abuse.

I think that if you plan to teach religion, you need to really know it inside and out. Study it. know the history of the calendar of your faith, the reasons we celebrate what we do, the reasons we genuflect or kneel or face east or ight candles. It is all about the "why". And the answer is the same for all religions, for eternal life.

If we fail to focus on the hereafter, the day to day problems can wear us down. Without the reminder of humility in the presence of a loving supreme being we can become overly sensitive to our own needs and forget he big picture. Love Love Love.


I think most of peoples bad experiences come from parents or teachers who did not know how to teach the faith well. One hour a week or month ain't gonna cut it. It is so complex and beautiful...you need time to teach it. Look at devout Jewish families and how they use so many beautiful rituals to remind them throughout the day that God Loves them.

Spirituality without direction can easily become moral relativism and that can lead to lack of interest in the state of your soul. many people who have had near death experiences, say there is a moment after or while they review their life, of judgement. These people say they are required to judge their actions in life themselves. They say it is very painful. Religion helps us judge our actions daily, helping us to improve and make ammends along the way. Godspeed...thanks for the interesting discussion.

reply to post by Deaf Alien
Prime example: Answered prayers.

Some time ago I was really struggling to know if I was saved, If I was going to heaven or If I had done enough good to be saved. So, I faithfully prayed in Jesus's name to God to show me a sign. I told God that I needed an answer right then, I told God that I would do a Google search for "Bible Verse of the Day", and would select the very first one. I do remember a verse that said God controls all games of chance and I knew that if God was omnipotent he could call up any verse he wanted to to answer my prayer. So I searched and this came up first:

John 15:16 "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you."

How's that for a perfectly answered prayer??

That's one of hundreds of instances where my prayers or concerns were answered personally.