Raising Kids Without Religion... A cop-out?

Originally posted by ATruGod
I went to church by choice as a kid...and stopped when the paddle was threatened (as I could just get that at home).

Now I have kids I also agree it should be thier choice not something forced upon them. Grandma has tried to push them into her religion, it hasnt worked they just dont believe.

Its thier choice!

Actually it isn't their choice.

You have to teach them values.. whatever they are, you will teach them. Like it or not.

It is a cop-out to say you will not teach a child values.

However, and here is the big thing. WHAT VALUES is completely up to the parent. But if you are saying "let them decide" then you are just being lazy. They will learn though.. they will learn whatever your values are.

You know you have values, instil them in your children now, whatever they are, or you won't even get along when they are grown.

[edit on 7-8-2008 by Quazga]

'Kids' are not old enough or wise enough to make the life decision you ar talking about...
it is best (imho) to expose the 'kids' to a wide variety of choices.

my kids, years ago, elected to go to church, mass, and bible study, as they were influenced by their peers at school etc.
I am pagan & shamanic & bapitzed catholic in a younger life...
but i was all for their exploring and experiencing other mindframes like the religious morality of the Baptist & Catholic lifestyles in their developing years.

nothing wrong with first hand experience

Originally posted by quaple_pouge
Food for thought:

My mother in law raised my husband and his sister without any belief system. They are two of the most "lost" people I have ever met (and I don't mean in the Christian sense of the word saved vs lost).

They have floundered their entire lives.

Children need to be raised with some sort of belief system. I'm not sure how your parents were, but bringing your children to church is not "forcing" religion down their throats, it is simply giving them a base or foundation that they desperately need.

I've known a few 'lost' people in my life, as well.

A lot of them were from broken homes and were essentially hopeless.

A lot of them were also from highly religious households, and did what they did just because they felt an urge to rebel against their upbringing.

That anyone decides something "for themselves" is a meaningless statement. We can only believe what we have been exposed to or influenced by. If you do not wish to expose your children to any sort of religion that is up to you, but don't pretend that that will immunize them against indoctrination. Indeed the notion that religion is somehow bad or precludes rational thought is itself a doctrine that has been used to demean certain people.

There is no dogma stronger than that of popular culture and advertising. Literally billions of dollars are spent to get you and your children to believe and value certain things that benefit corporations and politicians. And yet we accept it as "normal" and religious people as "freaks" even though religious people don't benefit at all from whatever you believe in. The goal is similar, only the tactics differ. Without some kind of underpinning, we are easily prey to ubiquitous attempts to manipulate us. It is wise to acknowledge in ourselves the human capacity for self-delusion and rationalization.

Of course you realize the opposite is true:

Just because you cannot write a book inspired by God doesn't mean that the Bible wasn't.

Logic sucks huh?

Just because it could be written by God, doesn't mean that it is.

I could elaborate, but I don't want to go off topic.

Originally posted by Quazga

Originally posted by ATruGod
I went to church by choice as a kid...and stopped when the paddle was threatened (as I could just get that at home).

Now I have kids I also agree it should be thier choice not something forced upon them. Grandma has tried to push them into her religion, it hasnt worked they just dont believe.

Its thier choice!

Actually it isn't their choice.

You have to teach them values.. whatever they are, you will teach them. Like it or not.

It is a cop-out to say you will not teach a child values.

However, and here is the big thing. WHAT VALUES is completely up to the parent. But if you are saying "let them decide" then you are just being lazy. They will learn though.. they will learn whatever your values are.

You know you have values, instil them in your children now, whatever they are, or you won't even get along when they are grown.

[edit on 7-8-2008 by Quazga]

Nobody is saying we shouldn't teach the child values.

We are in fact saying that the children should be taught values, but should not be taught to do them only because of dogma.

I think she's saying that she lets her kids choose which church they want to do to, if any, NOT what values they are going to learn.

"We don't have a word for not believing in Zeus, which is to say we are all atheists in respect to Zeus. And we don't have a word for not being an astrologer."

"I'll be very happy when we retire the term "atheist," and I think it is a word destined for disuse because if atheists win and we all just achieve a level of intellectual honesty where we are no longer going to pretend to be certain about things we are not certain about, then we'll just be open-minded, rational, scientifically inclined people who will talk about spiritual experiences honestly, talk about ethics honestly, talk about the shape of the universe honestly, and it won't be a word." -Sam Harris

Source:
Interview: Sam Harris. PBS.org

Teaching your children spirituality is not a good idea. Teaching them about religion might be a better idea. Teaching your kids to be reasonable is important above all else. To know what it means to be reasonable, means that your children not only have a perspective in life as to how to solve day to day problems, but to do it in a way that leads them to make descisions that are above all else, the right thing to do. Philosophy deals with questions like, "is there a god", and "why are we here?" It does not discourage chidren from having morals, or spirituality. In fact, it reinforces morality. It simply suggests that if you believe in something too strongly it will effect the descisions that you make, and could lead you to make less favorable descisions in life. There is your way, and there is THE way. In order to discover the right way you have to set your personal feelings aside, which may be influenced by religious beliefs. Doing things based on your feelings is called emotivism, and doing things based on your religious beliefs is called spiritualism. Try to take the perspective of the philosopher, and make descisions that are objective. Descisions that are better for everyone, and ultimately the right thing to do.

Originally posted by justamomma

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by justamomma
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

Obviously I knew that christians believe "god inspired man" because I called out your rebuttal before you even wrote it.

[edit on 7-8-2008 by justamomma]

Are you a wizard because you are aware of one of the fundamentals of Christianity?

Wow, I guess.

Nope, just a former slave to the ideologies set forth by men who wrote a book claiming it was inspired by god. Whether it was or wasn't, I can't say for sure.... But honestly, neither can you

Well, why did you rush back to beat your chest as if you were blessed with clairvoyance? Of course I'm going to say that, it's a fundamental belief of Christianity. No news there. Interesting you felt like a "slave". I feel free, I'm free from condemnation by God. that's an AMAZING feeling, it's fantastic to know that I don't have a single worry about eternity. Speak for yourself, you sure don't speak for Christians.

If you could, then it wouldn't be a faith based religion. Placing your faith in something other than what is already inside you puts you in a dangerous position, IMO.

"Dangerous " how exactly? I feel protected by God's perfect wisdom. I feel protected by his hands. I feel protected by his guardian angels. I have such joy when I need something, pray for it, and receive it. My walk with God is a personal one, and it is great. I'd NEVER go back to trying to figure out life myself, that was when things were difficult. Never felt more free actually.

I only wish I had been raised with more religion. I came to Christ through the school of hard knocks and by preponderance of the evidence. Our society is becoming increasing secular and the results are apparent to anyone with eyes.

When I was growing up there had never been a school shooting. Now most schools have metal detectors and Policemen in the hallways because the shooting have been so numerous. Violence, Drugs, Stds, teen pregancies all have increased. Our culture is winding down.

If you have faith you would be remiss to not share it with your children. If you don't... well you have bigger problems than your children.

reply to post by asmeone2



it will only be your childrens loss because they have not been taught the words of our lord.

but in terms of morals and morals.

that is up to you to teach them right from wrong.

Originally posted by MrGrieves
Okay. Clearksky, that was a pretty silly thing to say. I don't usually get into this argument because it's pointless... but prove it. The only evidence you have is a book. Let's hope that every other religion, including some that were around LONG before yours are wrong, for your child's sake.
Tell me- if there were two tubs, one filled with water, the other acid, and you had no evidence which was which, would you blindly push your child into one based on faith? Actually, that's too fair of a chance. If there were thousands of tubs and only one filled with water, would you push your child into the one you thought was right, based only on faith?
You don't know that Christianity is reality, NO ONE does. So don't make such foolish statements.
If you respond to this with "I DO know it's real" then you, my friend, are lying. And you know what the bible says about lying...

I would test them.

Coincidently, God says you can test him too. You have a moot point sir.

"…Test me in this," says the Lord Almighty, "and see if I will not throw open the floodgates of heaven and pour out so much blessing that you will not have room enough for it." Malachi 3:10

Originally posted by Lokey13
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

Geez do you believe in Magic too?

Of course, it's called "sorcery" and the Bible strictly says not to do it. Ask witches and those who practice Black Magic if it is true or not. They will tell you the same.

Originally posted by asmeone2

Of course you realize the opposite is true:

Just because you cannot write a book inspired by God doesn't mean that the Bible wasn't.

Logic sucks huh?

Just because it could be written by God, doesn't mean that it is.

I could elaborate, but I don't want to go off topic.

The inerrancy of it can be plainly seen. Have you ever looked at the probability studies about the prophecies Jesus fulfilled by his birth?

The probability that he could have fulfilled them by chance is so astronomically huge that it is considered "impossible" by science standards.

To me that screams that the author is supernatural and omnipotent.

Originally posted by gate13
reply to post by asmeone2

 

it will only be your childrens loss because they have not been taught the words of our lord.

but in terms of morals and morals.

that is up to you to teach them right from wrong.

There's nothing to prevent them from learnign about the scriptures themselves.

I find it interesting that you think I can teach them right and wrong, while I'm not teaching them the words of the Lord... most religious folks I know think they are one in the same.

reply to post by asmeone2




-ChriS

[edit on 7-8-2008 by BlasteR]

reply to post by NOTurTypical


It screams to me revisionist editing.

I will repeat, though, I do not want to derail the thread by debating the Bible's historical legitimacy.

In this context it doesn't matter if it's actually true or not, because we still have a tangible and substantial amount of influence from those who think it is.

The unitarian universalist church is a good start if you want your children to learn about all religions. I don't distingust one from the other but take the best of all that is offered and teach that. That is my idea of a good religion.

Originally posted by Bigwhammy
I only wish I had been raised with more religion. I came to Christ through the school of hard knocks and by preponderance of the evidence. Our society is becoming increasing secular and the results are apparent to anyone with eyes.

When I was growing up there had never been a school shooting. Now most schools have metal detectors and Policemen in the hallways because the shooting have been so numerous. Violence, Drugs, Stds, teen pregancies all have increased. Our culture is winding down.

If you have faith you would be remiss to not share it with your children. If you don't... well you have bigger problems than your children.

Let's just take a peek shall we???

in 1963 God was removed from the public school system.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical"Dangerous " how exactly? I feel protected by God's perfect wisdom. I feel protected by his hands. I feel protected by his guardian angels. I have such joy when I need something, pray for it, and receive it. My walk with God is a personal one, and it is great. I'd NEVER go back to trying to figure out life myself, that was when things were difficult. Never felt more free actually.

I am not saying that it would apply to you necessarily, but when you place the controls of your life into someone/things else's hand, you are still responsible for what happens.

To expect someone that you don't know really exists (other than your "feelings" of course) to "save" you, typically you are doing little to save yourself.

Now, don't get me wrong. The philosophies that were taught by this man in the bible are beautiful and certainly something that I do my best to fashion my life after, but I don't believe that putting my faith into him as god and saviour is wise.

I know the feelings to which you speak of...... I experience them even to this day and have revelations of certain things, but I don't credit it to a man that may or may not have existed thousands of years ago.

I credit them to the one who Created me....... the one who I am a part of.

I just "worry" that a lot of ppl could be very disappointed when/if they realize they have put their hope in an illusion (deception) that will/could evaporate in an instant leaving them feeling abandoned and hopeless.

People base their belief in someone, a man, and it can set them up for a world of disappointment. I believe in the spirit of jesus just as I believe in the spirit of ghandi. It is there to point the way, but they, as men, were NOT The Way.

The feelings that you experience could be nothing more than power of suggestion or feelings that come bc what is being taught through this man was Truth. It doesn't mean you are having some magical, mystical experience.

If it gives you hope, then by all means. It is your life and you have the choice to place your hope outside of what you have been given by the Creator. These are just my thoughts on it.

[edit on 7-8-2008 by justamomma]