Stop Raising The Minimum Wage & Stop Whining

reply to post by forthepeople


My people do more than entry level type jobs. They make my business successful, and my life easier, therefore they are valuable to me and I pay them what it takes to keep them.

Burger flippers are a dime a dozen, theres no need to pay someone 12 bucks an hour to flip burgers when I can find someone to do it for 6 bucks an hour.

reply to post by Maxmars


Remember, it guarantees the PURSUIT of happiness, as in making sure you have the opportunity to TRY to be happy. It doesnt guarantee you any form of happiness whatsoever.

Originally posted by slackerwire
reply to post by forthepeople

 

My people do more than entry level type jobs. They make my business successful, and my life easier, therefore they are valuable to me and I pay them what it takes to keep them.

Burger flippers are a dime a dozen, theres no need to pay someone 12 bucks an hour to flip burgers when I can find someone to do it for 6 bucks an hour.

So you pay 'as little as you can get away with'? You accept only the cheapest labor? Do you actually 'know' your employees? Or does that matter in today's business world. People are just 'expenses' right? If you could get a machine to do it, would you fire your $6/hour employee? In a heartbeat I would suppose.

Without profit you have no reason to engage in commerce right? No point in doing all that work (or whatever) if you're not making profit yes?

reply to post by slackerwire


Whats wrong with paying them 7/hr instead of 6 or 12? Oh yeah that would send Micky Ds and Burger right under. Bankrupt city baby!!!!!!

What kind of business do you run a porn site?

Originally posted by Rockpuck
reply to post by cardinalfanUSA

 

$10,000 to move? That's ludicrous. With $500 I could rent a large U-Hauls for a week and move to any city within a 200 mile radius. I didn't insinuate that these people move across country, but there's no reason to be living in a metropolitian area where rent for a decent apartment is $1,000/month if you can't afford to live there. Move 40-50 miles out of the city and watch rent drop more than half.

Once again your ignorance leaps from your tongue without self restraint..

Do you honestly think you can rent a U-Haul to move 2.5k miles? lol .. it's almost 2 grand alone for the gas. The truck it's self was almost 3k. Not to mention having to fly out there 3 times to stay a total of 14 days finding a suitable "rent"able house to stay in while we find an actual house.

Ya, it's a bit expensive. Perhaps you expect those who make "minimum" wage or low wage to simply throw their life possessions in the trash, pack up a so called "500 dollar u-haul" and move somewhere they have no connection to.

The idiocracy is asinine to a point you make my head hurt.

as for moving 40-50 miles out of the city .. do you realize the cost of gas? .. to drive 50 miles to your minimum wage job would essentially = working to go to work. I hope your next response you think before you type..

First of all, noone told you to move 2.5k miles. It was your choice, and I'm assuming you could afford to do so or you wouldn't have moved in the first place.

"Ya, it's a bit expensive. Perhaps you expect those who make "minimum" wage or low wage to simply throw their life possessions in the trash, pack up a so called "500 dollar u-haul" and move somewhere they have no connection to."

Like another poster said, if you're over the age of 20 and you're still making minimum wage, then something is obviously wrong. And yes, if you're living in a large metropolitan area (Dallas, Chicago, New York, etc) where rent is $1,000 per month, and you can't afford to do so, then *&#$ing move.

It's funny that when someone has little to no support for their arguement they begin to belittle those around them. There's no need to label someone's valid opinion as "ignorant".

Originally posted by slackerwire
reply to post by Maxmars

 

Remember, it guarantees the PURSUIT of happiness, as in making sure you have the opportunity to TRY to be happy. It doesnt guarantee you any form of happiness whatsoever.

I was more concerned with the 'life' aspect of the rights. To hungry or sick people with no money, the pursuit of happiness is entirely within their own minds, and not a function of their job. Unless they are given to accept that they should be 'grateful' for the chance to earn minimum wage.

reply to post by Rockpuck


"as for moving 40-50 miles out of the city .. do you realize the cost of gas? .. to drive 50 miles to your minimum wage job would essentially = working to go to work. I hope your next response you think before you type.. "

So, are you saying that there are no jobs outside of large metropolitan areas? If you don't like paying $1000/month for rent, then move 20 or 30 miles down the road to a smaller town where rent will be substantially less. Any town with more than a few thousand people is likely to have employment opportunies, whether they be factories, convenience stores, retail, or fast food.

Would it be better to live in Dallas and make minimum wage or to live 50 miles outside of Dallas and make minimum wage? And to borrow a line from you..."I hope your next response you think before you type.."

Originally posted by forthepeople
reply to post by slackerwire

 

You say you pay your people well over minimum wage so how do you do it? According to you it cant be done the business would go under.

As a business grows in wealth and profits it should pass some of the love to its backbone the employee..


good day mr scrooge

[edit on 25-7-2008 by forthepeople]

It doesn't sound to me like he would be the type not to pay his employees WHAT THEY ARE WORTH (meaning if they aren't worth much based on their skills and/or effort, they really don't deserve to make what someone who does have more skills and puts in more effort is worth). But to say he should when this is HIS company that HE built is wrong. If he underpaid someone there would be NATURAL consequences bc he would lose employees. Come on ppl! Are we really this far gone that we lack even common sense??

[edit on 25-7-2008 by justamomma]

Originally posted by cardinalfanUSA
reply to post by Rockpuck

 

"as for moving 40-50 miles out of the city .. do you realize the cost of gas? .. to drive 50 miles to your minimum wage job would essentially = working to go to work. I hope your next response you think before you type.. "

Then don't work minimum wage. If ppl who have not had "higher" education are able to make something of their life, it is leaving the rest of you w/out excuse for you "lot" in life. In this country, PARTICULARLY W/ A GOV'T THAT PLAYS DADDY, everyone is left w/ no excuse..... plain and simple.

reply to post by justamomma


Wow i didnt know daddys took money from their kids. We get taxed to death what a mean father. Maybe if daddy wasnt so stingy taxing so much for multibillion dollar wars minimum wage wouldnt be so bad.

[edit on 25-7-2008 by forthepeople]

Originally posted by forthepeople
reply to post by justamomma

 

Wow i didnt know daddys took money from their kids. We get taxed to death what a mean father. Maybe if daddy wasnt so stingy taxing so much for multibillion dollar wars minimum wage wouldnt be so bad.

[edit on 25-7-2008 by forthepeople]

I think you have a point in part of what you are saying. That is kind of my whole point. We are paying the price for asking them to set a standard. Let's get them out of our lives completely and start calling the shots for ourself, then they would have no leg to stand on in taxing us to death. But so far the solution of the majority is to give them more leg to stand on. It is becoming counterproductive to ask them to set the standards for us.

If minimum wage had stayed even with gains in productivity from 1968 to today, it would be $15 to $20.

IN states that raise the minimum wage, surprisingly, the number of jobs increase. There is no proof of the doomsday scenarios that we are told about raising minimum wage. I expect if the market collapses in the coming months -- it certainly won't be because the fry chef makes a bit more.

Wages for the most part have been stagnant since the 1980's. While worker productivity has gone up. The bulk of that money has gone to executive compensation.

McDonalds doesn't have more workers than it needs. It certainly won't reduce workers, it will either reduce profits or raise prices (if the market allows it). Companies don't hire more help than they need. Labor is a cost of business -- of course they want to reduce it. But if another business has to pay the same thing, the marketplace will decide if it is sustainable. I can guarantee you, that if nobody is around to buy burgers -- it doesn't matter how low the minimum wage is. We seem to be more concerned with millionaires affording the second yacht, than with the average worker affording rent.

Why shouldn't someone who works for a living 40 hours a week expect to be able to raise a family -- that USED to be the case?

The total thinking in this country has gone to the "risk" of capital, and incentives for people at the top. Look, nothing gets done if people aren't working. Demand and people willing to pay for something creates markets.

I don't think I can get through the usual Libertarian thinking about "supply and demand" and the invisible market. But we've been doing that for over 30 years and our economy is about to crash. Banks and mortgage lenders speculate and raise fees and invest in high risk and high return instruments -- and the taxpayer bails them out. That's privatized profit and socialized risk for the top bracket.

Greenspan and others were open in the past by keeping a certain amount of job insecurity. Every time workers were pushing for higher wages they might raise interest rates -- increasing unemployment. To keep the economy humming, they just made credit easier to get. Most Americans have over $6000 in credit card debt and a negative savings rate. That can't last forever.

The middle class is almost non-existent these days. I'd say you need about $120,000 or more per family to live like a middle-class person of 1975. That's only about 3 or 5%. It's likely you think you are middle class -- but you probably aren't. You have to worry about college, cars, homes and healthcare like the rest of us and couldn't afford two months unemployed. Inexpensive VCRs and affordable video games are not what I consider a measure of the "good life."

I wouldn't mind trading in my car for a bicycle, if we had a traffic lane open for bikes. I wouldn't mind spending more time with the family. I'd love to have Universal Healthcare and Education to College for everyone -- because those things pay for themselves. WE already pay about 4 times more on our For-Profit healthcare system than most other nations.

Anyway, I've either made a point or not. Minimum wage is WAY BELOW a sustainable lifestyle in this country. The "free market" is a grande notion, but does not exist in this form -- nor do I want a "free market" for people. A board of Directors gets to decide what to pay and then pay each other more. I think we can afford a basic living for everyone in this country -- and then people can have their yachts and limos after we take care of the Common Good -- not before.

In the 1950's we had gotten rid of Child Labor which actually increased the number of jobs. We had strong Unions. We had the pre-eminent economy in the world. We peaked in 1990 economically, but by then wages were well below the curve. Instead of tariffs -- we have "free trade" which somehow means thousands of pages that guarantee one company or another profit. While we the people have no guarantees whatsoever.

reply to post by justamomma


Ok I will agree with you there.

Originally posted by VitriolAndAngst
We seem to be more concerned with millionaires affording the second yacht, than with the average worker affording rent.

Why shouldn't someone who works for a living 40 hours a week expect to be able to raise a family -- that USED to be the case?

AMEN BRO!!!!

There is a big difference between the "minimum wage" and a "living wage":

A minimum wage is the lowest hourly, daily, or monthly wage that employers may legally pay to employees or workers.

Living wage is a term used to describe the minimum hourly wage necessary for a person to achieve some specific standard of living.

This differs from the minimum wage in that the MW is set by law and may fail to meet the requirements of a LW. It differs somewhat from basic needs in that the basic needs model usually measures a minimum level of consumption, without regard for the source of the income.

Some places, like Maryland and a few cities in California and New Mexico, have passed living wage laws. The LW laws there seem to cover only businesses that receive state assistance or have contracts with the government. It seems to be working in those areas, but from the lack of widespread living wage laws, it doesn't seem to be a great idea for everywhere. There's nothing that proves that even a living wage will get you to a "good life", but it could, I guess, if the law defines the specific standard of living that the LW would provide.

Both a MW and a LW have their pros and cons. But, if you are dissatisfied with the MW that the government has set, then petition in your area, your city, your state for them to pass a LW law. Or, get more education, get more skills, and better yourself in any way possible to escape the MW.





[edit on 25-7-2008 by skeptic1]

Originally posted by forthepeople
reply to post by justamomma

 

Ok I will agree with you there.

for real? sorry, I am just shocked. I often feel that I am one of the few on either side of the issues that is really here to learn other perspectives. I only take a hard core stance on this issue now bc some on here DID have valid points that made me question my view and I had to go and learn how the system worked and in this case, I realized this view was right. I have, since joining this site though, had to change some of my views to be consistent w/ the over all picture. glad to know there are some on here also willing to listen to the other side, even if they don't always agree.

In this case, I personally think there DOES need to be a solution. But I DON'T feel we need to pass the solving of this problem onto our gov't, bc like I said, the more we pass on the power to the government, the more rights they have over us (through taxing, etc). Either we are own property or we are their property. I personally would rather struggle (which I have) but maintain my right to call the shots in my life and keep what little I may earn.

Originally posted by buddhasystem

Not to split hair here, but for a long time I managed on under $7 a day and wasn't starving. Sure enough I didn't buy much ice cream or highly processed food or McD, but food was adequate.

based on your budget, that leaves about $50 per week on discretionary spending.

Discretionary under whose criteria? If you're a 20 year old kid living in a 300 dollar a month room paying no utilities(covered in rent), living right above a coffeeshop where you get free stuff anyway, and having to walk only 1.5 minutes to get to work then 50 bucks may be discretionary, actually for that wage is more than livable, I know because between 17 and 20 that was me, and that was not that long ago people.

But some people didn't have it as good as I did. Some of these people were well educated individuals with career goals and a hell of alot of drive. Some of these people are legal immigrants, from say, Cuba, where the trade embargo fails to recognize education standards of Cuba. Thus leaving them at the age of 50 or 60 to learn how to integrate into American society, make enough money to save and go back to school at what, 90? Are you serious?

Not everyone has failed to work to their potential, or decided that they don't want anything better and that they'd rather leech the system. I say raise it to something more livable for someone who'd like to die with dignity. It's not work that people mind doing, it's having everything taken away from them and then making it damned near impossible by purposefully causing economic damage engineered to benefit only a few. How in the hell is that fair? I often notice the right saying that trying to help out is a waste, and these are the same people that advocate huge wastes of money and resources like wars, and mismanaging disasters because they rather have loyalty than competence. And then the left complains about the government not doing enough, and they take it overboard by instituting systems with no way out.

No emphasis at all has been put into education. Education is the cornerstone of ANY prosperous society we proved it in the cold war, hell even Cuba has a 98% literacy rate, what the hell is wrong with us? We don't bother to make it attractive nor affordable and we expect people to achieve within such flawed standards such as No Child Left Behind, which has done absolutely NOTHING but further regress the education system in this country to the point where colleges and universities are dropping their criteria because they need the bodies filling space in classrooms to make money to pay off huge amounts of debt they incurred through fraud, corruption, mismanagement, and predatory corporate influence-A practice which has seeped through every crack in our economic system, and blame is still on the poor? On those who depend on minimum wage to survive?

They turned us into a nation of consumers and you people are wondering why there isn't enough money to properly fund anyones agenda? Have any of you stopped to think about the fact that EVERYONE is complaining? No matter who it is? Consumer economies are destined to fall if there is nothing solid to back up an economy, like the tech jobs we once had, or manufacturing. Textiles was one of the first to go, R&D is pretty much down the drain at this point. We have nothing to say we can back up our economy except that we are all here to buy more stuff? And people thought this would bring prosperity?

And what's really funny, is that they have everyone here arguing about whose is less corrupt, and blaming people far worse off than they are for their problems. Looks to me like everyone is getting played like a fine violin.

Broken system right? It all ties in, it's never just one thing or another.

[edit on 25-7-2008 by projectvxn]

I see some of the postings and say how people should get up and get better jobs an such lets say a person 18 with no family should they go work or go to college and try to make a better living in the future.

If they work they wont have much education.

If they go to college how will the survive, how will they buy the basic needs which college grants wont pay for.

If a person goes to college and works something will slip either the work or education no one can keep it the too like the would if they only had to do one. They make take more time to finish college and in that case will have more bills that are generated because of it.

and then it depends on the area, if you live in the middle of the country there arent many choices; and if you live in the city there are choices with either of those other things come into affect.

transportation how do you get to work some cities and counties dont have or have poor public transportation are you supposed to walk to work when it could be miles away.

housing if you in the middle of no where housing is cheaper but you need a car plain and simple. if your in a city housing it more but they may have public transportation, that affects your situation in a big way how do you get to work from where you live.

Lets say you are doing great but something unexpected comes up, death of family member, you get hurt, you get a very serious heath problem stuff like that needs to be considered before all the ranting bs that is being said in this thread.

Somethings may come up a persons life that they cant get out of and what are they supposed to do; just roll over and die.

You all are acting as if everything is because of something the person did when that is not always the case. Somethings you dont have no control over. Lets say a huge natural disaster or human made disaster occurs and may kill or injure someone that works or works in earns money for his or her family what happens then, what happens depends on what country and what state or province that persons lives in.

I've heard a lot of comments about "taxed to death."

What does that mean, when the marginal tax rate used to be about 50%?

Well, we have a lot of basics that we now pay for in the "free market." My natural gas bill, which comes over the same pipe as it used to, was a nuisance fee about 6 years ago -- about $35 a month. Now, however -- even before this [weak dollar/high speculation/scam] of an energy crisis we are undergoing took hold, I could pay $150 on an average month -- but I had 5 different companies to choose from for my "market choice." One has $.95 per therm and a $20 base fee, while another has a $1.10 per therm and a $15 base fee. Some have "transport fee" and various taxes. Why don't have they all have the same tax -- I suspect it is a "bogus fee we added and called a tax" charge.

The local school has kids go out and raise money for supplies. Bake sales for jerseys. Is begging a future job skill? I'm already seeing donation drives for our troops? Shouldn't we be providing these people who sacrificed so much with what they deserve -- rather than have them beg for it? Maybe someone who lost a leg with get a bigger tip, because he elicits more sympathy.

We pay more now for all sorts of basic services -- which is a LOT more than I saved on my taxes. We also have a weaker dollar -- that is the result of the Republican Low Tax Santa Claus telling you they would lower taxes and then they printed money. When the government "makes money" and gives it to all the for-profit banks, the money in your pocket is worth less. We should all become banks and make lots of money -- only without anyone actually producing something useful, we would probably starve if we didn't learn to eat cash.

Taxes aren't killing you. It's that you spend all your money getting by, because costs are all shifted to the average worker and away from the Owners. Mega-corporations get tax incentives to produce Ethanol -- which is not nearly as efficient as a dozen other technologies, but hey, Monsanto gets what Monsanto wants.

Money is a relative thing. It matters that the government shifts money from education to military. Making bombs cheaper doesn't help the average American. What you pay in taxes -- doesn't really matter, as long as their is a progressive tax system that is sustainable.

If I make $5 and pay $1 in tax -- that is worse than if I make $20 and pay $10 in tax... as long as there is a progressive tax system that keeps the marketplace from being distorted. We used to protect jobs in this country. Now we let Boeing export factories to China. How soon until China is just exporting the planes to the US and not bothering with our executives? Without education for everyone, people in the US must compete with everybody else who is just a little more desperate, needs a little less health care or safety or clean air. This is only a matter of time.

When Bill Gates walks into a bar, the average person is a millionaire. Why would that business even bother with serving ANYONE else at the bar in this "micro" economy we are looking at? Bill Gates could buy a Million-dollar Diamond-laced drink once a day with no problem. The business would have to sell for a few months to make that money with 100 customers spending $10 a drink. That is the distortion we are going to be looking at. The iPhone is a great product, but if the economy collapses, there will only be that 1 million at the top able to keep one, and the 299 million of the rest of us won't even be using phones.

I'm sure this is heresy to most people. But America did great with before the Reagan tax cuts. Nobody should pay tax below $50,000. And have the rate go up to 72% after $3.2 Million. All the basics covered and we have a trade policy again to promote high-tech and green industries.

I see some of the postings and say how people should get up and get better jobs an such lets say a person 18 with no family should they go work or go to college and try to make a better living in the future.

If they work they wont have much education.

If they go to college how will the survive, how will they buy the basic needs which college grants wont pay for.

If a person goes to college and works something will slip either the work or education no one can keep it the too like the would if they only had to do one. They make take more time to finish college and in that case will have more bills that are generated because of it.

and then it depends on the area, if you live in the middle of the country there arent many choices; and if you live in the city there are choices with either of those other things come into affect.

transportation how do you get to work some cities and counties dont have or have poor public transportation are you supposed to walk to work when it could be miles away.

housing if you in the middle of no where housing is cheaper but you need a car plain and simple. if your in a city housing it more but they may have public transportation, that affects your situation in a big way how do you get to work from where you live.

Lets say you are doing great but something unexpected comes up, death of family member, you get hurt, you get a very serious heath problem stuff like that needs to be considered before all the ranting bs that is being said in this thread.

Somethings may come up a persons life that they cant get out of and what are they supposed to do; just roll over and die.

You all are acting as if everything is because of something the person did when that is not always the case.

Something you dont have no control over. Lets say a huge natural disaster or human made disaster occurs and may kill or injure someone that works or works in earns money for his or her family what happens then, what happens depends on what country and what state or province that persons lives in.