Stop Raising The Minimum Wage & Stop Whining

Originally posted by ncuncfan2006
reply to post by justamomma

 

Im more worried about the people getting out of highschool who dont have help and are trying to make it. Pay for college, books etc . Not ADULTS

[edit on 24-7-2008 by ncuncfan2006]

OMflippingWord! Listen, let them struggle. It'll be good for them. It will teach them the value of hard work and money. Parents need to quit handing their kids the world and start making their children WORK for what they want.

We spoil our children because we think they are entitled to everything simply because they are our children rather than realizing that our job is to teach them how to be honest, kind, fair, and hard working. The training should start at home. People feel entitled to have things handed to them by the gov't (which is what the gov't wants because it means we "owe" them..... we become "wards" of the gov't and they will collect one day) bc the parents taught them they were entitled by giving beyond basic necessities just because they were their children.

CHILDREN ARE NOT PETS!!! It is our responsibility to teach them not to lean on the gov't by teaching them to not always rely on us for their desires.

I read about a man and a woman somewhere who, when their children asked for anything, they would make them earn it. Their way was AWESOME!!! They would tell them that to earn the money to get their desired product they had to walk to the other side of their property (i think it was about 40 something acres) to a huge rock pile w/ a little bucket; fill that bucket up w/ rocks and walk it to the other side of the property and dump it out where it was needed. For every bucket, they earned *gasp* a quarter. DAMN GOOD PARENTS!!!! teaching them the value of hard work.

I guarantee you their children are not the ones who EVER rely on their government for anything, but realize that if they want something, hard work is the way to get it.

You can easily take care of basic necessities on less than the new minimum wage. It is just ppl think they need all the extras. All anyone needs is basic shelter, a little something in their stomach (not the huge amounts this society has become accustomed to), water (not sodas, blah blah), clothes (not name brand... go to salvation army and by some cheap under $10 outfits), and a few other cheapies like tooth brush and toothpaste. You can do this on less than the minimum wage. All else is not necessity and if you want it, you have to work hard for it. Don't expect that you should be allowed to have a computer w/ internet, t.v., expensive cell phone, etc just because you are in America.

[edit on 25-7-2008 by justamomma]

[edit on 25-7-2008 by justamomma]

Originally posted by Anonymous ATS
The government exists to take care of it's people when they need it and that government is made up of the able bodied. At least a GOOD government is. If a government doesn't take care of those within it's borders taht need the help, then why does it even exist? There would be no use for it what so ever.

uhm...... no! the gov't job was never meant to exist to take care of the ppl. what are you ppl smoking? go back and read the constitution (not the watered down version, but the original). the gov't was merely to be the glue that held the states together and to handle nat'l issues such as DEFENSES (not offense, mind you). It was not meant to take care of the individual. that is a lie fed to you straight from those who seek to control you.

The "Fortune 500" companies are the companies that are run like a pyramid scheme. Imagine two pyramids on top of each other with one of them upside down. The one right-side represents the employees. More lower level workers at the bottom, with one "point" or boss at the top. Then the upside down pyramid represents the cash flow. The thing is, it isn't about the CEO getting so much money while doing nothing, but instead it's about how he pays minimum wage to as many of the workers he has as possible in order to maximize profits.

Look around you brother (sister, whatever the case may be)!! Who do you think owns the government. Who do you think is IN the government??? You are playing right into the very hands of the ppl that you admit will manipulate you! I laugh, but I laugh VERY nervously..

[edit on 25-7-2008 by justamomma]

reply to post by nixie_nox


Thanks for your post. It seems most Americans these days think that empathy is something to be avoided. People seem so judgmental these days, as if they somehow have all the answers.

In an ideal world, sure we wouldn't have more children than we can afford, but then again, in an ideal world people we also wouldn't start wars without provocation on any of the multitudes of harms we commit upon each other daily.

And the world is hardly ideal.

reply to post by justamomma


You live in a fantasy world were hard work always pays off. This is not the case always a lot of people have worked hard and not gotten were they should be because of other factors. Not everyone who works hard makes it, their is some luck to it and it helps if your a brown noser.

It happens everyday i've seen hard workers that i would have promoted if i owned a corporation not go up the ladder. Not because they didn't work hard but because they did'nt go play golf with the top dogs on the weekend they didnt brown nose. Ive seen lazy people get higher up the ladder than some hard workers. Their are more factors in life and its not as cut and dry as you make it seem. Not to mention people in the work force are back stabbers and cutthroats im sorry in your candyland world things never go wrong and hard work always pays off.

Ive seen people group together and get hard workers fired just because they didn't like them and laugh about it afterwards.

Minimum wage in NC last week was 5.75 hour. So after taxes $720 a month. Id like to see you come here and make it off of that. Rent, gas, food, clothes, insurance, etc etc


Furthermore how is wanting to see someone get a fair dollar amount for their work leaning on the fckin government? Please explain this to me?

Once again we are not talking about people drawing welfare checks and food stamps. We are talking about someone giving a honest days work and being payed a fair wage for it. A wage reflecting upon the cost of living at the time.

Im sorry we only get a average of 76 years of life on this earth that is if we are lucky. We are gone in the blink of a eye. If I take my precious time away from my family, kids, and life to help a multi million/billion dollar company succeed i expect you to be at least fair and pay me enough to survive off of.



[edit on 25-7-2008 by ncuncfan2006]

The government is not responsible for taking care of and providing for those who can't make their own way. It is the individual's responsibility to provide for themselves and whomever they bring into their lives (like kids). They have put safeguards in place (like the minimum wage) so that legal employees of American companies have to get paid a certain amount per hour and no less than that. That, in my opinion, is a good thing.

If a person wants to earn more, then get educated or acquire marketable skills or stay in a job long enough to earn the chance of moving up the ladder.

If a person can't "live" on minimum wage (which, like I and others have said, was never meant to be a living wage), then don't start a family that can't be supported and don't try to live beyond the means that can be afforded.

I do feel for people who live in poverty, but I don't think that the government should prop them up and make a better life for them. That is what charity/charities are for. And, charity starts at home. So, for all of those who feel for poor people like I do, what are YOU doing, in a charity sense, to help them out?

The more I read on, the more I see a fundamental issue being skirted and unexplored. I am as entitled to an opinion here, although some might rate it less worthy than others. I make that comment because it is nearly self-evident that some here are inclined to judge the ‘worth’ of their fellow man, something which I am not inclined to do. I find it utterly disheartening to see people reduced to memes and stereotypes because of their economic status or presumed ‘nature’.

I hesitate to post this only on the principle that while the does answer some questions and address some other posters input, it is not a direct contribution to the thread itself, which is about minimum wage. But unavoidably, the issue of minimum wage led to a discussion of the nature of those earning it, as well as wealth, who has it, and how it is a measure of its owner/earner.
First, and to fulfill my commitment to “SRTkid86”, I would like to expand on a comment for which he expressed an interest.
I re-post it below:

In particular I was referring to the 'obscenely' rich. But your point is well-taken. The people some may consider rich - the ones who had a plan and went for it, or made something, developed or invented a thing, these people are RARELY, if ever, obscenely rich.

There are however, those who ARE. And you know what - THEY DID STEAL IT - or their parents or grand parent or great grandparent did. And they will do all sorts of things to ensure that they ALWAYS have that wealth. Most of them involve anything but 'earning' it.

“NorthWolfe CND” also made an interesting, if offensively postured, retort to the statement.

Let me see, Bill Gates, Paul Allen, the founders of Apple Computers. What did they start out with, and from whom did they steal their millions?

I guess that, according to you, when I die I can't leave my money and properties to my kids, I'll probably just set up a fund so that every American can own a car and have a dozen kids before he, or she, can read and write. Wouldn’t want my kids being labeled by you as thieving useless bast*rds

First, a response to the more respectfully expressed inquiry by “SRTkid86”;
When I refer to the ‘obscenely’ rich, I am being quite literal. If one were to amass anything in life, it would ostensibly be to make ‘use’ of it. Unlike food and shelter, wealth is an intermediary symbol, denoting our access to such resources as we desire or need. Lofty detachment from the drive to accumulate excess wealth is generally scorned in our culture, and in the truly extreme case of some who fixate on wealth as ‘worth,’ is representative of the societal value of its holder.

Once wealth had been refined by trade and politics into a symbol, the inevitable controller of that symbol became politically consequential. Those who seek political relevance must align themselves with wealth to effectively proselytize their ideology. These are two important and contributory factors to the generalizations that follow. It appears that some commentators are ‘sophistically’ driven to argue so I respectfully stress the point - these are generalizations and NOT summary judgments on specific persons.

Note that in our history, there is ample evidence to show we culturally developed a reliance on the symbol as wealth model in a nearly universal sense. The drive for expedience in the transfer of goods and services was driven by need as we expanded our spheres of influence and contact in our surroundings. Money (wealth) was the vehicle expressing this drive.

For some reason, we have accepted that money is an ‘end’ or goal, and the means for acquiring it has become of secondary importance. We have allowed those who made wealth their life’s work to ‘guide’ our cultures into the mechanisms we see in place today. From early on, those in the wealth business coalesced into a group, and began a very deliberate scheme to improve their lot, disregarding the impact it had on others.

We have been guided into accepting such contrivances as loaning money you don’t have (Fractional Reserve Banking), and substitution of wealth( actual specie, or hard currency) for debt (promissory or reserve notes), and ultimately, banking secrecy excluding all but the ‘holders’ from knowing what manipulations of currency are effected, and why.

It stands to reason that this group of ‘money masters’ are currently the most obscenely rich people on the planet. Oddly, the members of this group seem not to be represented by the exceptionally talented or gifted, instead they seem limited to particular ‘families’ or ‘blood-lines’ as well as, interestingly enough, certain ‘ideologically’ construed organizations.

Their wealth was amassed by simple trickery and deceit. There ‘business’ practices were conducted specifically towards aggrandizing their own aims and ensuring the wealth flow occurs only as they intend. They have succeeded in maintaining this model to their benefit.

Now we have a culture of materialistic consumership, driven by debt, and fueled by a common perception that wealth is a reflection of one’s worth. Hence, being poor is recognized a characteristic of the person, rather than a reflection of his or her circumstance.

Ultimately, those who worship the life of their ancestors, claiming good birth and heritage as an excuse for their wealth, are in fact ‘in charge’. And the reality is, that a poor person could never be ‘worthy’ of leadership and control because if they were ‘worthy’ they wouldn’t be poor. Only by reducing the person’s humanity to irrelevance can this logic hold true. However, the illogic of that ‘perception’ is glaringly self-evident. Circumstance is not the person, nor is the person the circumstance.

The truth is, MOST of the wealth existing in today’s market was ‘created’ and is ‘owed’ to the holders, despite the fact that the ‘holders’ never had the wealth to begin with. The scam is clever, and it’s insertion into the economies of the world was NOT accomplished by establishing a consensus of the consumers. It was surreptitiously imposed on the public, by the beneficiaries’ proxies, all of whom held the same desire for political relevance. THIS is the theft to which I referred.

If you are a bank, holding ten thousand dollars in cash, why should you be allowed to ‘loan’ me one hundred thousand dollars? You haven’t the funds to do so, yet this is exactly what the banking system encourages. By fraudulence and usury, you extract from me the original amount loaned plus interest above and beyond the profit provided through fractional lending. Money for nothing.

This model is the root of the abuse which has drained the nation of much of its wealth. And our hard currency no longer exists.

And now, a response for the vociferous “NorthWolfe CND”;

Let me see, Bill Gates, Paul Allen, the founders of Apple Computers. What did they start out with, and from whom did they steal their millions?

I guess that, according to you, when I die I can't leave my money and properties to my kids, I'll probably just set up a fund so that every American can own a car and have a dozen kids before he, or she, can read and write. Wouldn’t want my kids being labeled by you as thieving useless bast*rds

Bill Gates?, the guy who ‘bought’ a public domain computer operating system, had some programmers change variable names and other minutiae, copyrighted the ‘new’ product, and sold it to the government? I would say he stole from everyone, but that’s just my opinion. But that’s neither here nor there, because I don’t think he is obscene wealthy. Nor are any of your other examples. They worked with what they had and used the business environment to their advantage. They didn’t make their wealth out of ‘nothing’.

What you do with your own wealth is for you to contend with. I don’t even want the smallest percentage of it. Of course, if you teach your children to ‘use’ your money to ‘make’ money the way the bankers do, yes, some will call them thieving useless bast*rds – and they will be counted among those who produce nothing for their fellow man, and take everything they will extract above and beyond their inheritance (as an ‘entitlement’ of their ‘position’) and ‘sit on it’. But again, we each choose our own path, so only time will tell.

So be it.

This really makes no difference in my opinion.When Obama is elected president he will raise taxes,he will not reduce the empire,he will not reduce entitlement programs.The dollar is being under cut.It will fail just as Rome fell the soviet union fell and so will the usa.The middle class will cease to exhist and we can thank all three branchs of our government who pay no attention to the people until it's time for re-election.They recieve thier main support from corporations and so will cater to those corporations until the dollar fails.

I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties
than standing armies. If the American people ever allow private banks
to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by
deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around [the
banks] will deprive the people of all property until their children
wake-up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered. The issuing
power should be taken from the banks and restored to the people, to
whom it properly belongs.
Thomas Jefferson, Letter to the Secretary of the Treasury Albert
Gallatin (1802)

and that is my two cents

reply to post by ncuncfan2006


in this world you are not entitle to live a comfortable "fair" life... you get paid what the job you do is worth

if scrubbing toilets is only worth 6/hour, then you will only make 6/hour

want to make more money? then you should try to make yourself worth more than 6/hour. we shouldn't be expected to just hand it over, because they say it's too hard.

reply to post by Maxmars


thank you for clearing that up, you make very valid points, and it has to a point made me reevaluate my skewed view towards the working poor.

reply to post by Maxmars


another double post.

[edit on 7/25/08 by SRTkid86]

Originally posted by ncuncfan2006
reply to post by justamomma

 

You live in a fantasy world were hard work always pays off. This is not the case always a lot of people have worked hard and not gotten were they should be because of other factors. Not everyone who works hard makes it, their is some luck to it and it helps if your a brown noser.

No, I do live in a place called reality. Until all things are "finished" and the "Book" is closed, there will always be injustices made upon the ppl. It is up to the ppl to not let that injustice obscure their view of the Truth. The truth will always be that we make our own luck by how we view and deal w/ what we have before us. Because there are injustices in the world does not mean that it is right to start demanding and acting entitled.

I am not saying that I think things are fair. But just bc things are not fair does not mean that I am going to complain and cheat. If I don't like my situation and it can't be changed bc of the "cheaters" in the world, then I will change my view of it.

How does one do that? You ask during the hard times in your life "what can I learn from this? What lesson am I being taught through this trial?" To expect someone, whether gov't or you neighbor to "fix" your troubles, you are denying yourself an important lesson.

STOP MISSING THE POINT!!! This life is not IT!! This life is merely a time of "learning" for each and everyone of us. It is not meant to be easy. The minute my life gets easy, I will have to start questioning what it is I have done wrong. The challenges I meet are important and essential to my growth in this life and I accept and evaluate each one rather than cheat myself of the experience by expecting someone else to fix it.



edited to add in 1st paragraph: "does NOT mean"



[edit on 25-7-2008 by justamomma]

reply to post by Krieger


Technically my income sits on the border between upper middle class and upper class, and I have never stepped foot on a college campus. It's about motivation, drive, innovation, and hard work. Not what college you went to.

I GOT IT!!

A lot of people in this thread remind me of Ebenezer Scrooge they have his same outlook on life before he was transformed.

I can't afford to make idle people merry. I have been forced to support the establishments I mentioned through taxation, and God knows they cost more than they're worth. Those who are badly off must go there.

Forum Scrooge: You have no education you are a idiot, a low life and scum. You may come to work everyday and do a good job but that matters not. Ill pay you what i think your worth even though it does not cover the cost of living. You may lose 30 lbs and not be able to keep a decent meal in your belly but its all your fault you dont deserve to make a fair wage cause you are uneducated trash. If you die let you, decreasing the surplus population.

[edit on 25-7-2008 by forthepeople]

reply to post by ncuncfan2006


Again, then go start your own corporation and promote all of the hard working, non brown nosing people you want. Just remember, the only way you stay in business is to make whats called a profit.

Given your previous statements here, its doubtful you could run a profitable lemonade stand, as you would want the 10 year old kid working it to be making $85,000 per year, with a nice healthcare program, stock options, and profit sharing.


You whine and whine about people not being able to make it on minimum wage, well this may come as a shock to you, but minimum wage isn't meant to be a living wage. How many times must you be told that? It is ENTRY LEVEL, as in for people with no marketable job skills.

Whats to stop said minimum wage earner from posting a few ads on Craigslist offering to do odd jobs for people on the weekends to make some extra cash? Know what thats called? Initiative.

No one forces anyone else to work for minimum wage. The days of indentured servants are long past. They are stuck in those jobs because they lack the necessary skills to make better money. Thats it, nothing more, nothing less.

reply to post by forthepeople



I don't think most of us who agree with the OP are being "Scrooge"-like. I just honestly don't feel like the government should step in and make everyone's life better. This life isn't perfect and it isn't an even playing field. People aren't entitled to anything, and I don't think they ever were.

I don't think that those of us who "will" should pay for those who "won't". I don't think those of us who try should pay for those who won't. I don't think that those of us who "do" should pay for those who "don't". I don't think those of us who started at the bottom and worked our way up should pay for those who aren't willing to do what it takes to better themselves in order to work their way up. (And, by "pay for", I mean having my tax dollars go towards government funded entitlements).

Now, I do have a different mindset when it comes to those who "can't"; then, I feel that those who "can" should help out.....but through private charity, not the screwed up government.


[edit on 25-7-2008 by skeptic1]

All this whining about minimum wage is ridiculous. I have never worked for minimum wage. Not as a teenager and not as an adult. The vast majority of minimum wage earners are teenagers. If you are in your 20's or older and making minimum wage you are doing something wrong. Very wrong. You work hard, you get raises, you get promoted, you make more. You all act as though this "evil" country forces us to slave away for a mere pittance. Rubbish, complete crap. Minimum wage isn't supposed to be a living wage, it gives you the motivation to find a better job or work harder.

reply to post by cardinalfanUSA

$10,000 to move? That's ludicrous. With $500 I could rent a large U-Hauls for a week and move to any city within a 200 mile radius. I didn't insinuate that these people move across country, but there's no reason to be living in a metropolitian area where rent for a decent apartment is $1,000/month if you can't afford to live there. Move 40-50 miles out of the city and watch rent drop more than half.

Once again your ignorance leaps from your tongue without self restraint..

Do you honestly think you can rent a U-Haul to move 2.5k miles? lol .. it's almost 2 grand alone for the gas. The truck it's self was almost 3k. Not to mention having to fly out there 3 times to stay a total of 14 days finding a suitable "rent"able house to stay in while we find an actual house.

Ya, it's a bit expensive. Perhaps you expect those who make "minimum" wage or low wage to simply throw their life possessions in the trash, pack up a so called "500 dollar u-haul" and move somewhere they have no connection to.

The idiocracy is asinine to a point you make my head hurt.

as for moving 40-50 miles out of the city .. do you realize the cost of gas? .. to drive 50 miles to your minimum wage job would essentially = working to go to work. I hope your next response you think before you type..

reply to post by slackerwire


You say you pay your people well over minimum wage so how do you do it? According to you it cant be done the business would go under.

As a business grows in wealth and profits it should pass some of the love to its backbone the employee..


good day mr scrooge

[edit on 25-7-2008 by forthepeople]

Originally posted by slackerwire
reply to post by Krieger

 

Technically my income sits on the border between upper middle class and upper class, and I have never stepped foot on a college campus. It's about motivation, drive, innovation, and hard work. Not what college you went to.

So do I my friend, however I never forget where I come from and how I got here. I realize not everyone has the drive or the ability to accomplish what many others find "easy". You grow your wealth in numbers and in possessions but you should never loose your humanitarian outlook on the way.

You know, I was wondering. If we hold to the bill of rights (and that's a stretch in and of itself) or other such lofty documents which attempt to convey in words the basic human rights which we are to accept as inalienable; doesn't it make sense that the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness has a direct bearing on this argument?

I mean, shouldn't the minimum wage job meet the requirement of providing me with the wherewithal to achieve that which is 'rightfully' mine as a citizen? Certainly I should, on a minimum wage job, be able to afford to survive (eat, have a place to live, etc.). I mean how can I live on a minimum wage that will not cover the expense of living.

Some here are clearly not inclined to accept that the minimum should exist at all, I suppose that opinion is based on their perception of the worth of a person's activities in terms of furthering commercial interests.

It is ironic that we strive to equate human rights with equality among all people, and yet we would hamstring their ability to survive in our world by refusing to assign a value to a job that would allow them to achieve the common goals we all have a right to.'

It is amazing to me that here we have proud exemplars of those who have determined in their own minds that the world needs poor people' to do sh*t jobs for them. In other words, we who value wealth, degrade the person who has none as if it was their failing, and leave no recourse for them because of our prejudice as to the 'worth' we assigned.

Of course, the ultimate denigration comes from those who blithely accept the philosophy that hard work and effort will get you ahead in the world. I think that is an incorrect position. I believe that hard work and effort MAY get you ahead in the world. Without the sponsorship of a benefactor or agency to affect the ascension out of lower class - there you will stay.

Perhaps some day a new religion will spout up, one stating that "poverty is the training ground for the faithful" to paraphrase a famous author. If and when such a thing were to occur, there will be much lamenting in the halls of the 'successful' people.

BY THE WAY - IN WHAT PLACE HAS IT BECOME 'GOSPEL' THAT MINIMUM WAGE ISN'T SUPPOSED TO BE A 'LIVING WAGE'? (SORRY CAPS)

[edit on 25-7-2008 by Maxmars]