Stop Raising The Minimum Wage & Stop Whining

I am mystified that a "minimum wage" law can even be constitutional.

The whole idea of the government telling a private individual or employer how much they can afford to pay an employee is anathema to all the the concepts of free enterprise and liberty upon which the country was founded.

If I go into business, and spend my own TIME, my own MONEY, take all the risks, show all the initiative and vision, and I tell prospective employees I can only pay $3.00/hr . . . . well, I think that decision is mine and mine alone.

If no one wants to work for the wage I offer, what happens? I go OUT of business. I am the one who suffers. And in a free market, truly free society, that is the way it should be. No one should force anyone to take a job he doesn't want. The best vote anyone has is the one in his wallet. If you think someone is selling a crappy product, don't BUY it, and soon that seller/manufacturer will be out of business.

The government has no place telling anyone what they can "afford" to spend on anything . . . including labor. It's your money, and that is the basis of the fourth amendment . . . . you people need to wake up and stop expecting the government to take care of you.

ANY GOVERNMENT BIG ENOUGH TO GIVE YOU EVERYTHING YOU NEED . . . IS BUG ENOUGH TO TAKE IT AWAY.

If a whiner doesn't like the money offered for having NO SKILLS, than he needs to take responsibility for his life and do what it takes to get a marketable ability or skill.

Originally posted by ncuncfan2006
reply to post by coop039

 

You are talking about leeches and people who feed off taxpayers.. A totally different topic imo

Not all these people I'm talking about are leeches. They work minimum wage jobs. And since they make under a certain amount the are eligible for alot of entitlements. But because the get so much free, they really have no desire to improve themselves, even though they work. Its the system, It cost me alot to get insurance for my family, but they get it free. Why move to a job that pays more and lose that? So now they got a raise to stay where they are at.
Minimum wage should not have gone up. Its not helping anyone.

You don't understand. Raising minimum wage is about trying to ease poverty, and whoever said their has to be some kind of slave group for the middle class to exist is ludicrous. People, look at Norway, and all the Scandinavian countries. By the way, they also rent control. The problem is an out control free enterprise, (sorry that word isn't even true, try an illegal monopoly system mascarading as a free enterprise) and a shrinking middle class as the wealthy take all of the pie. The three fundamental changes to take any country back are: real news presses starting up everywhere (they have to be advertisers as you have to get them out on a dime at first and into many peoples hands regularly). Small businesses. And don't buy from the giants anymore. Don't buy from the monopolies. And lastly, if a country truly was a free enterprise and help fund business starts and loans of equipment, you sure wouldn't send the larger tax pool to the freaking crooks you have in, would you? There isn't a little pie, theres a big pie. In Canada I wrote and article with Statistic Canada sources, and it turned out with all the legitimate money in account, in the wealth an population breakdown, the only group that was almost and even split of the wealth was the 60-70% group. We would have all be yuppies, if the wealth was shared. The stats at the time in the states was horrendous. 60%, living on around 2% or less of the nations wealth. Everyone has been misinformed deliberately.

[edit on 25-7-2008 by mystiq]

reply to post by Rockpuck


I live in the midsouth, and for $550 you can rent a 1000 sqft apartment with a pool and tennis courts! If you can't afford to live in the area of the US that you live in, then move! Realistically, I know that I couldn't afford to live in Martha's Vineyard or in Greenwich, Connecticut, so therefore, I'd never move there. I agree with the original poster 100%. Inflation increase, so minimum wage goes up. As employer's wage costs increase, the prices of the goods they produce increase. In the meantime, my yearly wages increase by around 2%.

Another thing, the ONLY reason someone would stay in a minimum wage job for more than a year is because they job hop. I have two friends that both started minimum wage jobs 6-8 years ago. They stuck with their jobs and are now both making well over minimum wage. (Around $12/hour, which is pretty good in the midsouth).

People need to settle down, quit partying, get to work on time and keep their jobs. Don't get mad and quit because the boss yelled at you. Don't quit because you have to work a Saturday or two. Don't get fired because you can't show up to work on time. STICK WITH YOUR JOB!

I absolutely despise lazy worthless people that have nothing better to do than expect handouts.

reply to post by '___'eviant


i think you were talking to me, and sorry for the extremely late response, this thread BLEW the eff up.

but no, i don't think there are many jobs out there worth as much as the CEOs, and it may not be the job that the CEO is doing (which the fact is, they DO have a job... they make all the BIG important choices. and have other people who make the less important ones.) but it certainly was the job that he DID, that got the company into a position to hire people to do work for them... do you see what im saying. without that fat rich lazy CEOs out there, A LOT of us would not have jobs... stop hating on them guys, a lot of those same people you hate, are the ones paying your mortgage, you car note, and your utilities..

reply to post by mystiq


What the government and politicians don't seem to understand is that in a free market economy there ABSOLUTELY HAS to be a class system.

Look at it this way:
Take a group of employees at a company. One just started and is making minimum wage or $6.25/hour. Another has been there a year and make $6.50. Another has been there 3 years and makes $7.25. Another has been there 6 years and makes $8.50. Another has been there 8 years and makes $10.

Ok, so minimum wage increase to $7.25/hour. Is it fair to the employee who's been there for 3 years than newly hired workers are now making the same as him? So, the employer has to increase his wages. He now makes $8.25. Almost as much as the employee who's been there 6 years. So, THAT employee's wages are increased, etc, etc.

As wages increase, cost of living increases. The more money flowing into the economy leads to greater inflation. Therefore, everyone is back to where they started. Increasing minimum wage more than the cost of living only goes to increase inflation. It's a never ending process.

Sure, it sounds unfair, it sounds brutal, but there HAS to be a lower class.

Originally posted by Rockpuck
reply to post by Solarskye

 

........ It should reside around $7-$8 an hour, depending on the cost of living in the city you live. Perhaps Solar, you have never seen with your own eyes the squalor some people live in ... not homeless people... but people with families and children who sleep on the floor of a one room flat because the minimum wage is all they can earn.

This goes back to the original point of the thread... If minimum wage is "all they can earn" they should not have kids!! People need to take responsibility for their actions. If people cannot afford to raise a child comfortably, they should not have them. Plain and simple. I know that is a cold stance, but if you have not figured out how to sustain yourself in our modern environment, how do you expect to teach a child to. It sort of goes back to the basic laws of evolution. Back in the days of cavemen, if you couldn't provide yourself enough food to survive or build a shelter, you died... if you had children, your children died... Survivial of the fittest. That is how our species evovled as a whole from grunting, not bathing, and living in huts with mud floors, to constructing cities.

The statement "the minimum wage is all they can earn." is a farce in and of itself. In most cases it is a matter of all they are willing to earn. An average somewhat healthy individual in Florida (not a state known for its extremely high wages) could get any number of non-skilled to moderatly skilled jobs and earn well above the minimum wage. Heck a "helper" on a construction job can pull in $10 / hr. and if they are a good worker can expect a minimum of 50 - 60 hrs per week with paid overtime. That is between $550 - $700 / week. But that would mean getting up early everyday, being on time, not calling out sick frequently, and maybe sweating a little bit for your daily wage.... Many people just aren't willing to put forth that TREMENDOUS ammount of effort and I really can't feel bad for them.

For someone not able to perform manual labor, Publix grocery stores pay a median salary of $9.64 / hr for cashiers, and they have a great benefits plan. But again this would require a candiate who can pass a drug screening, and will show up for work ontime, something not everyone wants to do.

We have social security, disability, medicare, state and federal assistance programs for those people who cannot perform basic job functions.

As many have said, minimum wage was never meant to be a living wage. It is the absolute lowest amount of pay that an employer can legally pay an employee in the US. If you have no work experience, no marketable skills....what do you expect? A $50 grand a year entry level salary? That's crazy.

When I started working in highschool (16 years ago), I made minimum wage...around $4.15 per hour. My first job, no experience. But, from that job, I gained experience, and at my next job (2 years later), I was hired for more. Stayed there for almost 4 years, during which time, I went to school part-time, got some skills, and found another job (not retail, thankfully) that paid enough for me to go out on my own and live (and that was only 8 bucks an hour). Been in that job for 11 years and now I make over $22 per hour. A lot of making more money and moving up with a company is actually sticking with the same job for a good amount of time.

You can't expect to start out making $10 to $15 bucks an hour. It's unreasonable. UNLESS....you have a marketable skill.

But, if you have little to no experience, no real skills, and no history of sticking with a job for more than a couple of months, then you aren't going to make a "living wage".

The government can't be expected to fix anyone's life. It is not their responsibility. And, even if it was, they'd find some way to screw it up like they screw everything else up. People have to take personal responsibility and try to better themselves through whatever means possible and not expect to have every luxury in the world and/or expect others to provide for them.

I feel for people who have a rough time of it; I really do. But, there are some things you have to work for....and a living wage is one of them.

reply to post by NorthWolfe CND


Bravo! Excellent post. Aren't you sick and tired of seeing people on welfare or minimum wage drive around in a car they can't afford while talking on their $300 cell phone? Aren't you sick and tired of these people owning lcd tv's and spending $2,000 on a "system" for their vehicle, yet they complain because they can't pay their bills?

Television, radio, cds, dvds, air conditioning...these are all luxeries. Pay your bills first, THEN buy these things.

When my wife and I were first married, I was making $10.25/hour and she was going to college on a federal pell grant. We managed to live off of my $10.25/hour for two years! Our mortgage was $270/month on a 3 bedroom brick house in a decent neighborhood. Her cost cost only $1,000 and last her until she graduated! Sure, we didn't have a boat (still don't and never will, not worth the money), we didn't go eat at Red Lobster every weekend, we didn't go spend $50 every week to see a movie, but we made it. Any two adults that have functioning arms and legs and aren't mentally retarded have absolutely NO excuse for not working. If we could survive on $10.25/hour, then two working adults can survive on $12.50/hour ($6.25 minimum wage a piece).

Originally posted by NorthWolfe CNDLet me see, Bill Gates, Paul Allen, the founders of Apple Computers. What did they start out with, and from whom did they steal their millions?

Sorry I just found this humorous and had to single it out... I am pretty sure volumes of text have been written and hours of movies made documenting the unscrupulous way in which Microsoft got its start. While they did not "steal" their millions from anyone, they did nudge quite a few people out of the way on their way up the ladder.

I am currently working 3 jobs. I work at McDonalds in the morning, Wendy's in the afternoon and Burger King at night. I have also applied for a job at Kentucky Fried Chicken for the weekends. People in America have to stop whining! The only way to get ahead in this country is to work hard. Stop whining!

This thread really speaks to me, here is why:

I have a good job. I've worked hard since I've started with my company four years ago to obtain my job. I'd consider myself middle class as I make around 50k annual, so does my fiancee. We own a two family house in a rather seedy area of town. We rent out half the house so we can afford to save money to buy our own single family home in a nice area, when we get enough money.

I can't help but compare myself to the section 8 tentants we have. Four people live in the other side of our house. They have been there since we moved in. Only one has a job. A mom, an 19 year old daughter and their two boyfriends(who aren't on the lease and shouldn't really be living there anyways for insurance purposes).

How do four people without jobs afford to rent a place? Section 8. Section 8 pays us $800 per month on behalf of these people. From talking with them they also earn get around $1500 in food stamps per month, and $1000 in welfare. They abuse the system by saying they aren't all part of the same household. In reality they all live in my house, but as far as the state knows, they all live in unique properties. This allows them all to collect more and more money from the state. When I said they don't have jobs? I really ment they don't have real jobs. The two guys work landscaping under the table and I'm pretty sure the older woman sells prescription pain pills to drug dealers. The 19 year old daughter works at a gas station.

What really pisses me off is how great these people live. The apartment is filthy, but littered with rather expensive gagets as well. 42" flatscreen. Iphones, brand name clothing. They live better then me, yet I goto work every day and do a good job, and I don't rely on the state to support me.

Maybe this situation is extreme, but it goes to show that being poor isn't all that bad. Don't increase the minimum wage ever. I don't need these people getting even more ahead of me.

Originally posted by xmotex
It's entirely possible to work your behind off your whole life and still not end up making much at all, I've seen plenty who do.

correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this thread about precisely these people? I know it's possible, I've seen plenty do it as well. My point is not directed at those who "work their butts off". It's directed at those who feel their entitled to a decent living without putting forth more effort than it takes to place other peoples groceries in a sack for them.

Originally posted by xmotex
And plenty of people, most people frankly, don't have much ingenuity.
When you have an average, by definition you're going to have people who are above average, average, and below average.

Wrong. Period. For the last five years, I've been paying a man $20 each spring to clean my gutters. Last year, I invited him to stay for dinner as I was grilling much more food than my family could eat. I learned that this guy had no higher aspirations than going door to door performing odd jobs for people such as cleaning gutters, pulling weeds, washing cars etc. When I asked why he was so content, he informed me he was earning between 4 and 5 thousand dollars per month doing this. He owns his own home and drives a 2 year old pick up truck. One of the things that people discuss at length here on ATS is the laziness and apathy of American society. If you're willing to perform the labor that most aren't, this very concept can be made advantageous to you. You don't have to be a genius, you just have to be willing to work.

Originally posted by xmotex
The argument of Social Darwinists is basically the idea that those who are "below average" should starve, or die for lack of medical care, etc... or that their children should (and the "let em eat cake" crowd will no doubt exclaim that they shouldn't have kids - but they do anyway.)

See above. You don't have to be of average, or above average intelligence to earn a living. However I do take issue with those who rather work part time at a minimum wage job while having more children simply to increase the dollar amount of the welfare checks supported by my hard work.

Originally posted by xmotex

Work ethic is key. People work dead end jobs because they want to. Or rather, they don't want to put forth the additional effort required to earn more than minimum wage.

People also sometimes have bad luck, and work dead end jobs because they can't find anything else

Luck. Luck is where opportunity and preparedness meet. Nothing more, nothing less. Opportunities are like like cars. If you don't put yourself in front of them, you won't get hit. These people stop looking.

Originally posted by xmotex
Whenever I run into this kind of attitude, I always wonder if the people making the argument have ever actually lived in the real world.

I'm actually a little offended by this statement. I've had plenty of bad luck, and made a considerable amount of my own. I have precisely zero college hours. I fathered my first child at the age of 19. I have no qualms about freely admitting that I am a convicted felon. Not exactly easy to land a good paying job with a felony record and no college education. I'm not going to say how much money I earn, but I'll tell you that I have a wife who doesn't work, but stays at home with my 11 and 9 year old daughters, two dogs and a cat, all of whom live in a 3,000 square foot home which we own, not rent. I have clear titles to two late model vehicles on which nothing is owed, as well as several rather expensive "toys". I have earned this living through hard work. Times have been tough in the past for sure, and we still encounter the rough patches from time to time. When times are tough, I don't expect anyone, and especially not the government, to pave a smooth trail for me. When I need more, I work more.

I'm not implying that nobody is ever victim of circumstance. Bad things happen to good people. It's how those people deal with unfavorable situations that is called into question. Too many people think they're entitled to the things that they want without earning them, and these are the people I have no remorse for.

[edit on 7/25/2008 by Unit541]

nice post now that minimum wage went up people alot of people are going to lose their M.W. jobs

WOW! This thread is really talking to me. I had to read and catch up from yesterday. I'm so glad that there are members here that understand what I was getting at in my opening post. I wish for America to fix everything else before they start hiking up minimum wage. Our tax codes are horrible and needs to be overhauled to bring back businesses that once flourished in th U.S. We need programs to get people off welfare, so that it can be used as a temporary assistants to ones who need it to get back on track. That's what it is supposed to do in the first place. Some American's need to suck it up and go get a minimum wage job, they are out there, I see them in the newspaper and online all the time. The illegals are working most of them because they can and will suck it up. Again, fix the system, adopt a fair tax and give money back to the people and quit raising the minimum wage until then. It's not fair to worker's who are making just over minimum wage who don't get an increase of 70 cents and have worked there for years. Thanks again for all the opinions that I've read on this subject.

Originally posted by Rockpuck
reply to post by Solarskye

 

........ at $5.85 working 40hrs a week, a person can expect to earn $234 a week, or $936 a month, a total of $11,223 a year.

This falls below the US Standard for Poverty.

Average rent in a run down ghetto area in town in the US is around $550 a month.

$386 left over......
Assuming this person owns a car, the car payments and insurance (as the state forces people to buy corporate insurance........) would be about $150 (assuming it's a POS car and they don't owe much on it.. of course, car breaks down they are out of a job...)

$236 left....

Average 80-100 a WEEK on food..

Oh snap. Can't eat.

maybe roman noodles. But i though, in America, we where better then that.

Inflation is around 15% or hirer depending on the source, and the minimum wage has only recently risen since Clinton era?

Disgusting.

It should reside around $7-$8 an hour, depending on the cost of living in the city you live. Perhaps Solar, you have never seen with your own eyes the squalor some people live in ... not homeless people... but people with families and children who sleep on the floor of a one room flat because the minimum wage is all they can earn.

Believe me my friend, I do agree with all that you are saying above. However, as the OP stated, these people should not be having families. Does this change the fact that they do? Nope. However, do we need government to keep stepping in? Well, I agree that they need to do it to some degree but they should not come in with proposals like they one I saw two years ago. It almost made me shut down my small business on the spot.

They wanted $10 an hour minimum. That would have destroyed the business.

How much does small business support this economy? Well, let's just put it this way. If we were to lose 50% of small business, which is easily done if you raise the wage too much, then this economy will slip into a depression of epic proportions.

I know, we didn't have small business during the first depression and it didn't kill the country. Well, it's a different business world now and too many BIG businesses depend on the small business at this point.

Also, at least in Washington State, they Federal Min. Wage is different than the State's min wage. It is closer to $8 an hour in Washington before I left. That was what we had to increase the wages of our employees too before I left even though they were making closer to $12 per hour with tips thrown in. Just that push from the $7 to $8 range hit us pretty big since we were in the early stages of growth.

If we were to be forced up to a much higher rate all at once it would crush thousands of businesses in this country within the first 3 to 6 months.

reply to post by cardinalfanUSA

If you can't afford to live in the area of the US that you live in, then move!

I am embarrassed for your own ignorance.

Every regions is different, hence I used average. Because I pay over 1k a month for my "nice" apartment, to have the swimming pool and tennis courts (that I never once used) and my friends who live in the apartments where you can expect to be raided by a swat team at any hour during the day (happened twice in 4 years of college) was $650.

But that would be different where ever you go.....

However, most minimum wage earners are in large metropolitan areas, where rents are high. Perhaps if you tore your head from your arse, you would know this.

Also "just move" .. I am moving from Ohio to Oregon and so far has cost me over $10k. Real easy for a minimum wage earner, when I complain about it and I have no financial set backs.

reply to post by dariousg

these people should not be having families.

I hate to see ignorant people breeding, however the emotional damage done to many middle class families has led me to the conclusion that money plays no part in how your raise a child, but rather what kind of soul you possess.

So by any means, explain to me your right as a single man to tell another man he is not allowed to have children simply because he was never graced with the privilege of attending school?

I believe you have no right, and your stance is entirely ignorant and devoid of Human compassion and understanding. Perhaps sir, it is you who should not be breeding?

After reading the original post and most of the others, I have to agree with the OP.

I got out of the Military with one skill - Killing people. So I started with no education so to speak of, worked many of the so called minimum wage jobs, sometimes 3 jobs at the time to make ends meet!

I Worked my way through college, all the while raising 3 Sons and a Daughter. My wife and I took turns taking care of them, while both of us worked and shuffled kids around work, baseball, ballet, etc.

6 years this went on till I graduated from College and got into a career field I like. Between us now we make average income for couples in their 40's in the $100k range.

I still work 40-80 hours a week and serve in the National Guard on weekends.

WHY... because I want to be able to provide for my Family everything their heart desires and serve my Country/State.

As for minimum wage, let Companies and the economy deside that, the Government has no right to dictate what the minimum wage should be, the local economy should dictate that!

The Government here in the United States grows FAT while the public starves to death and some live in squaler.

Smaller Goverment and less spending should be the plan, unfortunately the people we've elected in Washington don't see eye to eye with the populace who elected them!

It is time to return this Country to the People. Resurect the Federalist Party and return Amarica back to the Federal Replublic that it was founded on!

Regards,

Originally posted by Rockpuck
reply to post by cardinalfanUSA

 

If you can't afford to live in the area of the US that you live in, then move!

I am embarrassed for your own ignorance.

Every regions is different, hence I used average. Because I pay over 1k a month for my "nice" apartment, to have the swimming pool and tennis courts (that I never once used) and my friends who live in the apartments where you can expect to be raided by a swat team at any hour during the day (happened twice in 4 years of college) was $650.

But that would be different where ever you go.....

However, most minimum wage earners are in large metropolitan areas, where rents are high. Perhaps if you tore your head from your arse, you would know this.

Also "just move" .. I am moving from Ohio to Oregon and so far has cost me over $10k. Real easy for a minimum wage earner, when I complain about it and I have no financial set backs.

$10,000 to move? That's ludicrous. With $500 I could rent a large U-Hauls for a week and move to any city within a 200 mile radius. I didn't insinuate that these people move across country, but there's no reason to be living in a metropolitian area where rent for a decent apartment is $1,000/month if you can't afford to live there. Move 40-50 miles out of the city and watch rent drop more than half.