Louisiana About to Pass Law to Teach Creationism!!

reply to post by gate13


I am an atheist. There is no religion in my life.
I believe in myself and I am raising my son to believe in himself too.
See, I don;t know about you, but god, aliens, or some fabricated "creator" doesn't pay the bills around here. I do.
I am not raising him to believe things that are impossible for anyone to prove, that still somehow are accepted by vulnerable simple minds in small rural towns where aliens abduct cattle and tornadoes make trailers fly.

While the explanations behind science are plausible and in most cases proven, creationism is nothing more than an idea. An idea of religious signifigance. Again, something no one can prove.

I have many reasons why i think US schools are crap, but it would take a lot longer post than I am willing to get into.

You say, I am raising my child on my belief system, and that is partially true, but it is also based on logic. I prefer my belief system over the belief system of this idiotic agenda driven government. I am sorry if I refuse to allow him to die for fascists or be a slave to propaganda and speculation.

He has access to whatever information he wants on his own internet connection and he reads it. he is not coerced by me, except to research things. my intervention comes when it is clear he is being fed crap.

In school, he only has access to what he is told. Things like "we have never lost a war" are complete crap, that only serve to bolster the "credibility" of recruiters that show up there to coerce kids into the belief systems of the psychos running this country. Not his own beliefs.

My responsibility as a parent (correct me if I am wrong) is to guide him toward truth and keep him from believing the agenda based crap that ultimately shapes him into what is currently dying in the gulf, on drugs or living with me until he is 35 like the typical adults we see nowadays. Oh BTW, have we ever lost a war? uh huh.

In 200 years, is the iraq war going to be changed into another thanksgiving that is family television safe because the "department of political re-education" says so? Time has allowed many to alter and sterilize history to look like one big john wayne movie as it is. I am inclined to say there will be a lot more of the same, but not in my house. And not on my watch.

I guess if I didn't take responsibility for the junk he is taught in school, I think his answers would be that we never lost a war regardless of the evidence we see in the current one right before our eyes. And then he would be misinformed. Hell, he might think that since there are "terrurists" everywhere that he should go to war and "defend" the bastardized constitution that they don't even know has been bastardized. right?

Now regarding my beliefs...

It is my belief that a child should not grow up one of the dumb, pierced tattoed mush mouthed sarcastic unproductive idiots with their pants around their ankles and the bag of pot in their sock most of the parents in this country are raising in the typical hands-off "let the school and babysitter take care of it", "not my kid" manner.

I believe a child should have access to facts and openly question anything they don't believe or agree with, to defend themselves and have a parent who will be there to back them up right or wrong with an iron fist if necessary.

Of course with my child only getting a single C (gym class when he is an amateur boxer on his own time) and the rest of his grades being A and B while scoring high on his aptitude tests, as well as making the honor roll I must be doing something right. I guess he also knows how to play the game. because that is all school is really. A game. and not a very challenging one either.

It is also my belief that he should not be limited to just that, but that he should be allowed to excel and not be dragged down by a school system that lowers standards so the rest of the herd can pass and not humiliate our global standing even more than it already is. You know, being the greatest country on earth....like he's taught in school.

This is why I would rather make sure I know what he is being told EVERY DAY, and take responsibility if schools want to fill his head with bullsh*t, to make sure he is properly informed. To know that while he is selling cookies for uniforms that the school is already sitting on 9 million bucks that parents already payed them out of pocket. DOH!

In the end my son will make informed decisions, defend himself and his rights, and not be fooled if another maniac makes it into office in his time.

It would also work for me if he knew that I made him and not some "god" from a freako storybook, or a "supreme being" that there is ABSOLUTELY no proof of.

Of course the other parents can continue to do what they want and let their kids learn the great school curriculum. After all, there is plenty of evidence to suggest they are doing just fine, isn't there?

This is definitely an issue that many people are passionate about and rightly so. No one wants their children being taught something that they consider wrong.

I saw this question asked earlier and it is in my opinion the wisest question asked in this thread.

"Why are we teaching any of this?" (paraphrased)

None of these theories, ideas, or beliefs can be proven beyond all doubt. What is so wrong with admitting we don't know for sure and not teaching anything concerning mankind's orgin. As a father of 6, I am more worried about my kids learning how to ask intelligent questions than memorizing someone's theory or beliefs.

reply to post by JustAnotherPoster


Thank you sir. I agree with you.
I would rather leave this earth knowing that my child will be successful, tactful, streetsmart, and a success, than a dependent of the taxpayer or a member of the prison system.

double post. please delete.

[edit on 20-6-2008 by Critical_Mass]

reply to post by JustAnotherPoster


That is the right thing to teach...we don't know, it could be this, or it could be that. I think it is neither. I am from Louisiana and I can tell you,it sure doesn't suprise me.

glad to see some sense arriving to this discussion. As Ive been trying to (unsuccessfully) interject into this thread, neither should be taught. But, conversely, if atheists can have their origins belief system taught in the forum of public education, theists/creationist/ID believers should have theirs taught, as well. Otherwise, we have nothing more than an atheistic "state religion." Something that many of our forefathers came here to escape.

reply to post by saturnine_sweet


Are you suggesting that being an atheist makes it impossible to instill a good set of core values because it is not endorsed by the vatican, mecca, or jerusalem?

Last time I checked these people are killing each other over stuff written in books that no one can vouch for.

And as far as the state goes, I only know of "evangelicals", and "jews" running the state over here.

Their core values speak for themselves.



[edit on 20-6-2008 by Critical_Mass]

nice definition by Wikipedia:

"a theory is a testable model of the manner of interaction of a set of natural phenomena, capable of predicting future occurrences or observations of the same kind, and capable of being tested through experiment or otherwise verified through empirical observation."

There is a fascinating book available online that takes an open minded view on this subject.

Description:

How did life evolve on Earth? The answer to this question can help us understand our past and prepare for our future. Although evolution provides credible and reliable answers, polls show that many people turn away from science, seeking other explanations with which they are more comfortable.
In the book Science, Evolution, and Creationism, a group of experts assembled by the National Academy of Sciences and the Institute of Medicine explain the fundamental methods of science, document the overwhelming evidence in support of biological evolution, and evaluate the alternative perspectives offered by advocates of various kinds of creationism, including "intelligent design." The book explores the many fascinating inquiries being pursued that put the science of evolution to work in preventing and treating human disease, developing new agricultural products, and fostering industrial innovations. The book also presents the scientific and legal reasons for not teaching creationist ideas in public school science classes.
Mindful of school board battles and recent court decisions, Science, Evolution, and Creationism shows that science and religion should be viewed as different ways of understanding the world rather than as frameworks that are in conflict with each other and that the evidence for evolution can be fully compatible with religious faith. For educators, students, teachers, community leaders, legislators, policy makers, and parents who seek to understand the basis of evolutionary science, this publication will be an essential resource.

Science, Evolution and Creationism

reply to post by Critical_Mass


um...where did I mention morals at all? I said origin beliefs. The atheist/naturalistic origins belief is taught in schools as a state-sanctioned religion, basically. It is no more provable than any religious book. The scientific facts presented for those beliefs can be interpreted myriad ways. That the prophets of naturalism have given (and often changed) their interpretation and thus their followers are not open to other interpretations does not make it any less assailable than the words of biblical prophets. Its still based on faith in things that cannot be proven.

reply to post by schrodingers dog


And that book differs from all the evangelical books about the "truth of Jesus" how? It doesn't. Don't get me wrong; I'm not on the side of Christians, either, nor am I a christian. I'm on the side of truth. Evolution is nothing more than a theory for a possible explanation of origins that does not require anything supernatural. It's "truth" has been changed radically a number of times in the last century. That alone should make it obvious that its nothing more than a faith. Truth is a constant. Faiths and religions, however, are very adaptive. I just want people to have an honest assessment of truth; I have no problem with someone believing something that I don't; I do have a problem when they say that their faith is the only faith, and that is what naturalism does. It's an even greater issue when, as in the context of this thread, it becomes a state-sanctioned faith to the exclusion of all others, which are then branded as being incorrect and inferior.

Originally posted by saturnine_sweet
glad to see some sense arriving to this discussion. As Ive been trying to (unsuccessfully) interject into this thread, neither should be taught.

I was looking for a way to support the teaching of creationism in school, not because I believe in literal creation as told in the Bible (some speculate that the Bible is, in fact METAPHOR), but because I think children need all the options laid out on the table so their brains will actually develop some beliefs on their own.

However, after reading your post, saturnine, I agree with you. No educational system should be teaching children about their origins, as this question is truly one of self ponderance and meditation.

Sadly, that means parents are left with the responsibility to set their kids on the right path, and we all know how that's been going so far. On average, of course.

reply to post by whitl103


Exactly. Of course, that is often what it comes down to. Parents should be the driving force behind their child's education, whatever they believe. But too many people want to have children, but then pawn most of the responsibility off onto others. I at least hope that perhaps this bill in LA might spark some conversation about what really needs to be taught in a pre-university setting. Because, honestly, you can teach all relevant science through a high school level without ever a NEED to address origins. Which, of course, only puts my back up more about it. Its not taught because it's necessary; it's taught to indoctrinate. That should be a horrible thing to a person of any belief, if they value freedom.

[edit on 6/20/2008 by saturnine_sweet]

reply to post by saturnine_sweet


I think you have misunderstood my position. If you read my earlier post:

"The theory of intelligent design states that an omnipotent being created the universe and everything in it for reasons we cannot, and are not meant to, comprehend. There is no quantifiable evidence to support this theory, there are no hypotheses that can be proven or disproven using this theory, and it offers no predictive ability for any past, present or future events. OK, now let's move on to the theory of evolution."

and

I tell you what, you can teach creationism in school by law when scientists can teach evolution in church, BY LAW!
You have the rest of the day to indoctrinate your own children, keep away from mine!
End of story.

I totally agree with you. I was just citing a book that takes a less polemic view on the subject.
Or maybe I misunderstood what you are saying.

reply to post by schrodingers dog


I guess I'm not getting your point. Mine was that evolution, as an origins belief, is no different than ID. It does not predict things, in relation to how it explains origins. It predicts things in relation to how it explain gene expression; i.e. dog breeding, for example. But that has nothing to do with the origins portion of evolutionary belief. That evolution is built on science is true, so is ID. ID states that what science shows us cannot be explain by natural forces. Which, as of yet, continues to be true. So, it is based in science, too. The difference is that it can't draw huge funding like evolutionary biology.

So...I'm not sure what your point was, precisely. What I meant about that book is that the portion you quoted smacks of the type of books that tell people that Jesus is a part of your life, no matter who you are. Because it sort of says evolution is the truth, but you can have your "delusions" to feel better, too.

reply to post by saturnine_sweet


Except that evolution is not a belief, or at the very least it not driven by a belief.
I started another thread on this pointing out some of the last research on the subject if you are interested. www.abovetopsecret.com...
There is a big difference when research is done for the sake of science and research that is undertaken only to prove an outside agenda. The latter cherry picks its results.

This is a BLATANT violation of the First Amendment! Religion is learned in Sunday schools or private schools, Not Gov't funded public schools. This should be stopped immediatly!
Science is chipping away bit by bit at ID beliefs. Some say that God planted fossils and such, but why would he want to debunk his own existence? But religion, boiled down, is merely a simple way of explaining the world from a long time ago, gone out of control (why is *your question here*? Because God made it that way)




-Notitia est potestas; denego ignarus.

[edit on 20-6-2008 by sobek52]

Originally posted by Tomis_Nexis

Originally posted by gate13

well i guess if you had a time machine you would go back and give them a video camera to record everything.

remember one thing , in those times they recordered everything on stone and word of mouth, they didnt have the technology of today they used what they had of those times, so creationism's ecidence cant be totaly false.

it could be possible in 2000 years from now they might find a better way of recording events or data and people like me and you say they recorded data this way it can be true?

in the end of the day we dont know so we cant be 100% right if it happen or not

So it's okay to believe something of word of mouth 2000 years ago, but half the things your read on the internet aren't true...but this 2000 year old story must be, which is based on people who did mushrooms and psychedelics.

And don't be sarcastic with the video camera comment, you people here demand proof. And I know they didn't have the technology of today AND THAT'S MY POINT...in these times word of mouth is almost useless without proof, people were gullible back then, as most still are now.

[edit on 20-6-2008 by Tomis_Nexis]

word of mouth is not the only proof.

there is hundred of scripture recording what happen 2000 years ago.

not just from a religion scence but what historians of that time had to say too is very fascinaiting.

im not going to sit here and post links of scripture and evidence to support religion but if you are really that keen to see what i say u2u me.

like anything keep an open mind and expect the an expected