Creationists Will Destroy ATS

Originally posted by Conspiriology
No madness what your disgruntled know it all never wrong mind

see what i was saying about poisoning things?

this is called name calling, or, to put it in much fancier language, an ad hominem fallacy.

can't handle is that the tables have turned and you got yours handed back to you on a platter and our religious belief got nothing to do with it.

i never got anything handed to me on a platter except for a bunch of headaches from the staunch ignorance that you've served up.

I can't even remember the last time I saw any "creationist" talking scripture in a Science thread unless asked they might but seeing how you all have been asking just to have us answer then hit the alert for being off topic, we usually don't.

it's actually not that, that would be quite benign and a bit pitiful, what i see is far more virulent and dangerous, it's the warping of the ideas of science to fit a political agenda.

As much as you complain about bigotry madness I would think you would be a little more thoughtful.

i call em like i see em

Then again it isn't just a coincedence it is the vocal Atheist, making these allegations. This is the same fear based discrimination creationists have seen them using in our Schools where they claim we are poisoning Science and now we are poisoning ATS.

you are attempting to poison science by doing nothing more than put creationism in a science classroom when it belongs in a philosophy room if anywhere in the school at all. maybe bible studies or world religions if the school offers such classes
it's
not
science

it's not discrimination unless you're going to say that that lack of astrology in the science room is discrimination
both creationism and astrology are equally scientific
until you get something scientific in there, don't call it discrimination when your religious belief isn't taught in the schools

You have debated me on the first amendment rights of convicted NAMBLA members in jail for child molestation but when it comes to Creationists, we see your true colors are not really about protecting ones first amendment rights.

oh, now that's a huge false comparison

you have every right to say whatever the hell you want
but allowing taxpayer money to finance teaching it in school is a completely different story
in fact, allowing tax payer money to go to teaching your religious belief in public schools would be a direct violation of the first amendment.

i have no problem with people voicing opinions in favor of intelligent design or creationism, but they aren't legitimate science and do not belong in the science classroom unless they become legitimate science (which is highly doubtful, but you never know)

Makes me wonder what the real reason for defending the Nambla member was really over now that I think about it.

wow, now you're indirectly accusing me of sympathizing with a pedophile, classy.

honestly, i don't care what the message is, you have a right to say it.

however, the line is different when you're asking it to be taught in school, especially when it's a religious belief.

Creationist aren't afraid of working in the same Science arena as Darwinian Atheist Evolutionist

why are you equivocating darwinism and atheism? i, and others, have called you out on this before, darwinism doesn't imply atheism.

and welcome the side by side comparison for each theory allowing students a choice but that is what bothers the atheists.

actually, it's more a waste of time for students to have something that is most obviously not science taught in the science classroom

even dawkins said that it would be clear that any students properly educated in both would realize that one is a well founded science and the other is nothing more than an unsupported religious belief (which is perfectly fine for a person to hold, so long as they don't try to push it into the schools or indoctrinate others into)

Your camp has suggested we should wait till our children are older to teach them alternative worldviews

what?
...what?

seriously, what?

when?
i've always advocated teaching children about all viewpoints.

i think you're saying that we should wait before we let them take religion seriously, making sure they have knowledge of many religions before they make the choice.

but it seems that was just to have them grow up, go to school and learn the only one allowed,, YOURS.

no.
evolution is not a worldview, it's a factual scientific theory that is supported by mountains of evidence

it's a theory that has yet to be disproven.

Ben Stein's movie No Intelligence Allowed describes this behavior and it is the same as we are seeing here in this thread.

ben stein's movie is a piece of garbage that has been eviscerated by many and doesn't deserve mention as anything more than the punchline of an offhand joke.

If I may borrow a quote from you that you once said to me.

ugh...

You just can't handle your worlview being challenged by critical thinking creationists

no such thing...well, they tend to be perfectly capable of critical thinking until they apply it to that one thing...

who have matched your so called superior grasp of Science and have surpassed it making you earn every point of view you want to make.

um...no

You people have to get over the fact that not everyone is like you and just because we can engage in Scientific discourse and debate while being interested in the philosophy of religion doesn't get in the way of our acceptance of Atheists as much as Atheists prejudice and bigotry gets in the way of the equal and fair treatment we not only have every right to but demand and deserve.

see, the problem with you stating this is that it's pretty much full of lies.
mainly the whole "atheist prejudice and bigotry"

Either lead by example, follow,

get out of our way because

WE are here to stay

Capeche.

or you could stop spreading lies and ignorance, calling me names, and attempting to assassinate my character whilst never providing anything in the realm of science.

reply to post by AshleyD


um...i stopped reading when you compared people saying that creationism isn't science to people saying black people shouldn't buy property in a particular area

because that's just stupid.

i'm sorry to be so frank, but you're (typically) better than that, ash.

you should easily be able to see the difference between the scientific community labeling something that isn't science as not science and racism

or you could stop spreading lies and ignorance, calling me names, and attempting to assassinate my character whilst never providing anything in the realm of science.

Same old, MIMS.

And it is getting old, no?

reply to post by madnessinmysoul


*nudge, nudge* shh, don't say anything to the others but i think ash was referring to the concept of asty saying: if christians are in the (ats) neighborhood, they might ruin it/ which ash compared to the same type of prejudice you see when it is asssumed if blacks are in the neighborhood, they might ruin it.



[edit on 4-6-2008 by undo]

reply to post by madnessinmysoul


This thread is not about creationism and its impact or place in public education or science. This thread is a polemic against ATS creationist members 'destroying the neighborhood' by being vocal and active in this forum.

My analogy stands.

I'm not letting it get to me anymore although I admitted previously this thread bummed me out. I lost my head earlier and went after some members in this thread but am now at peace with it now and Astyanax and his supporters can feel any which way they want.

Good to see you again, MIMS. You've been quiet lately.

(i think it might be pertinent to mention here that there are alot of people who are black, and alot of messianic jews whose ancestors are from israel (during christ's time) that are christians. so the typical "european/caucasian male christian" concept isn't quite accurate. there are also alot of females who are christian. that's a heckuvalot of people to blame for the decisions of a very few.

But I think astyanax is speaking to a particular strand of christian/creationist forumite that have taken residence under the ATS bridge. Christians and creationists have been here since whenever, some of them I consider friends; but, lets take a cue from elsewhere, the 'new' creationists' are a different breed. They are not conducive to honest or reasonable discussion.

TBH, I couldn't care less. Maybe this change is for the good in other ways.

Well it isn't very intellectually honest to throw away 5300 years of ancient history, from every ancient culture on the planet, because you don't like what it says.

[edit on 4-6-2008 by undo]

Originally posted by undo
Well it isn't very intellectually honest to throw away 5300 years of ancient history, from every ancient culture on the planet, because you don't like what it says.

Who's throwing it away?

Makes for excellent to mediocre storytelling, and also some great material for cultural studies.

Heh, my son has always loved greek and norse mythology. A god with a big hammer beats the prissy-girl the judean's created.

I think such cultural destruction is more indicative of theistic 'imperialism'.

[edit on 4-6-2008 by melatonin]

reply to post by AshleyD


i don't think asy or any of us crazy scientific evolutionists would have a problem with the creationist posts if they had scientific content and didn't rely on a complete misunderstanding of science and a general distortion of facts, so the analogy doesn't stand

the analogy would be better if it was a group of people who like throwing fecal matter at their neighbor's windows instead of a black family
sure, it's not really hurting anyone and you can clean it off, but it's quite the mess and just isn't polite.

there have been creationists on here that i have had no problem with...sadly, they're gone for the most part. one or two posters on here seem to carry the candle of science, but they aren't anywhere near as vocal as those entirely ignorant of etiquette, logical consistency, and science.

Makes for excellent to mediocre storytelling

Let me provide you with a brief snippet of why it was thrown away to begin with:

It was determined that life was incapable of being born anyway except by the birth canal. therefore "God", Ra, etc, could not have created humans.

It was determined that people, objects, men, angels, whatever, can't possibly fly in the sky, therefore the accounts of such things were fabrications.

It was determined that we can't travel through space or use the power of our minds to do anything, therefore the references to ships using the power of the mind to traverse the stars, were fabrications.

Whole cities cannot be destroyed with a single weapon. Therefore, such references were fabrications.

Etc. Etc.

It was also determined that the ancient Greeks couldn't write, so all the histories and dramatic prose was tossed out.

This resolved into claiming Troy never existed.
It grew. Soon, none of the ancient texts prior to Babylon, were telling the truth.
Gilgamesh didn't exist (they found his city recently, and they think one of his memorials as well).
Sumer (biblical Shinar) never existed. Till it was dug up from under 8ft of flood silt.

This goes on and on and on. As the evidence heaps up, the rhetoric to rid the planet of believers rises with it. Pretty convenient, I'd say, but not what could be called intellectual honesty

An interesting (not) debate.
I believe in God, but not creationism. Nor do I truly believe in straight evolution. It seems to me that all the creationists so far (that I have read) state that you're either a creationist and believe in God, or you are an evolutionist and don't. I suppose in your humble opinion that I am simply misled by "da debil", but I truly believe in God's existence, just not the bible.
We are all aware that the bible is a collection of stories told over and over again from previous civilizations, i.e., The Epic of Gilgamesh, etc. and that life began here on earth millions upon millions of years ago.
Evolution is not the answer either, not wholly, but you can protest that to your own legislator. Scientific facts state that SOME evolution exists, but has not proved to be the complete answer...
Now, if you want to force OUR children to learn YOUR particular brand of beliefs and RELIGION alongside scientific fact , then why not teach them also about all the other religions that disagree with the neo-christian norm?
There are many religions which refute your religion, not just science, so which ones are we going to fill our children's heads with?
Who is right? Who is wrong? Who's to say? Who cares?

This is where the difference is. You (creationists) want to put your BELIEFS down as FACT. The truth is, they cannot be proven to be anymore accurate than any other religion.
But on top of that, you want to then force feed it to everyone as TRUTH. No other religion I know of tries such a tactic.
You have churches for you to teach YOUR children YOUR beliefs. When you want to make it a law to teach MY children YOUR beliefs in public school, we got a problem.

I will respect your right to believe whatever you want and to teach that to your children if you wish, and I hope you will afford me the same courtesy.
If not, I'm going to be an imposition on your Inquisition.

Originally posted by undo
Let me provide you with a brief snippet of why it was thrown away to begin with:

So, in sum. You have issues with people questioning the real-world veracity of ancient scripts.

I think that's generally the idea - don't take stuff at face value. Question. Study. Question. Study. And then question some more. Some myths will be inspired by real-world events in some way, others won't.

If you can't hack that, oh well. Take myths as 100% truth then, but the more inquisitive of us will test the validity of various claims.

[edit on 4-6-2008 by melatonin]

reply to post by madnessinmysoul


I think you are failing to see it works both ways. There are both evolutionists and creationists in this forum that contribute excellent scientific arguments and there are those who have more scandalous reputations. There are nutties on ATS in every forum but to group together and attempt to silence one segment is what frustrated me.

But, again, it doesn't matter to me anymore. Not like I'm going anywhere. I'm pretty burned out on the personal drama threads like this and would rather get back to the threads discussing the topics and not the people.

Take care.

reply to post by cmongo4


Actually, all the ancient texts are attempting to tell about the same events, from slightly different cultural standpoints.

quote]Originally posted by madnessinmysoul

see what i was saying about poisoning things?

this is called name calling, or, to put it in much fancier language, an ad hominem fallacy.

Name calling my BUTT madness, what part of that description of you isn't true. You said you call it like you see it, Well so do I only in this case, I think most would agree.

You want to talk about ad-hominems? In case you haven't figured this out yet Madddnessss,, this entire thread is one big AD HOMINEM.

How you guys can find an inch of room to even talk about intellectual dishonesty when threads like this setup to single out some group in some unfair un-scientific thread to set em up then bait and alert or single them out and make sweeping statements to disparage them personally as a group while none of you have the guts to mention them by name.

i never got anything handed to me on a platter except for a bunch of headaches from the staunch ignorance that you've served up.

Oh that's right, how thoughtless of me, I am in the presence of the legend himself. Ladies and Gentleman, the only person who can boast ,,(let me say that again) BOAST, never ever having been beaten in an argument on these boards,, I give you Madddneeesssss!


"I have never been beaten on these boards - Madnessinmysoul"



Oh and spare us all the over used cookie cutter conditioned response about quote mining and cherry picked posts, unless you want to leave the link so that all of them can see no matter how you slice it, the context of that statment is, you think you are all that, moreover, such statements make you the last person to take seriously any opinions, assertions you may have regarding whether you think creationism is Science or not. I would love to debate the issue with you but you ruined any opportunity for that the moment you told me how you see yourself.

I will submit to you however that what you think you know about Science, most creationists here would consider you know just enough to make you think you know something about while at the same time, just enough to embarrass you if you knew half as much as they do.

The fact that you can even say something so arrogant, so intellectually dishonest, suggests you are either a legend in your own mind or, you are going to finally come back to answer my last post about the nazi belt buckles that you abandoned after being boxed in a corner or the last post about "kinds" in genesis where you suddenly lost all comprehension capabilities for the defintion of a simple single word.

I have seen you make many statements to suggest your self perceived superiority and delusional status as the undefeated undisputed master debater of ATS enough to understand that it is impossible for you to see things as they really are and with all due respect madd,, you lose most of your arguments but that goes un acknowledged because as soon as you realize it, you just don't show up and that way you don't have to say those words you can't seem to utter, the Atheist's in your clique at atheist chat not withstanding, they are words like:

I'm sorry,

I was wrong,

Good Post, etc,.

it's actually not that, that would be quite benign and a bit pitiful, what i see is far more virulent and dangerous, it's the warping of the ideas of science to fit a political agenda.

No maddness, Again I will remind you that is the signature style of ethics commonly practiced by Darwinists and proven they are guilty of.

That isn't merely my opinion madnessss,,,,, but the findings of a U.S. Senate investigation where they found the lack of professionalism the deplorable unethical, unlawful, acts by this areas of Science elite absolutley repugnant. They were shocked amazed and disgusted to discover the lengths these thugs will go, to censor, gag, black list or ruin the careers and lives of innocent Scientists whose only real crime was illustrating worthy Scientific research that didn't comply with Darwinism.

Why anyone would trust these people again is beyond the bounds of reason. Yet here you all are displaying the same exact insecure, jealous behavior. Astyanax having the same inability to feel any shame or guilt, any shred of remorse or accountability owes all creationists an apology, then he needs to take a good hard look in the mirror so he may be introduced to the face of bigotry.

When those guilty of this type of discrimination and prejudice were busted by the house and senate, where was your righteous indignation when that happened, where is your sense of justice for those who have every right to the same Jus Legitmum predicated on the same premise Evolutionists argued as reason they have a right to a place at the Science Table at a time when such a theory was considered preposterous.

Now, many years later, we see Darwinist like yourself, demand apologies but never offer them, ridicule others suggesting theirs is not science when you are not even a scientist much less an authority to judge.

We see them engaged in using taxpayers money to spy on others in the Science community, castigating anyone for even suggesting another postulate another idea another mechanism yet this is the same Science elitist that expects us to give them a place at the table and as soon as they sit down they wrap their arms around the bounty before them and says "mine mine mine alll mine " "get your own, this is mine"

i call em like i see em

BANG! there it is ,, the old teflon double standard, made patent by the slippery circular semantics of the language of legion, the authors of confusion. Of course it is Madd, when WE join a thread we are preaching shoving our religion down peoples throats but when you do it, its called increasing peoples "awareness". When I say you are a disgruntled Atheist, complicit as a co-conspirator to discriminate against creationists by fabricating one of the most tortureously construed acts of bigotry in the guise of a conspiracy you alleged WE are involved in I have ever seen, you call it ad-hominem

But when YOU do it,,

it's calling it like you see it.

I think anyone with a modicum of civility and a measure of honesty can see it too but I don't think many will call it like you see it.

If they are honest with themselves and us,

they would call it shameful

and disturbing

- Con












[edit on 5-6-2008 by Conspiriology]

Originally posted by Conspiriology


You want to talk about ad-hominems? In case you haven't figured this out yet Madddnessss,, this entire thread is one big AD HOMINEM

How you guys can find an inch of room to even talk about intellectual dishonesty when threads like this setup to single out some group in some unfair un-scientific thread to set em up then bait and alert or single them out and make sweeping statements to disparage them personally as a group while none of you have the guts to mention them by name.

Gotta say I'm with you here Con. At first I wasn't reading too deep into this thread. I just identified it as a reaction to increasing friction between creationists and whoever's nerves they got on. Now I'm suprised this thread hasn't gotten a visit from a mod or been outright closed.If you were to ask the question" Will creationists destroy ATS, I think that would have been acceptable, since you're asking a question, not making an assertion. By making an assertion, you draw the line in the sand and now everybody has to choose a side. Whereas asking the question may lead to frank discussion on all sides, allowing to non-creationists to vent their frustrations, and creationists to reassure them that they have no desire to destroy ATS. I'm pretty sure both sides have something in common, that's why we're all here on ATS in the first place. I don't recall the address to this site being www.argueaboutcreationism.com

Both sides need to simmer down. I'm pretty sure alot of the problem here is somebody disagrees with somebody else and from there it's just an ever-escalating verbal joust. Somewhere along the line both sides need to take a step back, refocus on the real objective, and move on from there. If we don't, we'll all destroy ATS.


[edit on 4-6-2008 by Gigatronix]

Originally posted by Gigatronix
Both sides need to simmer down. I'm pretty sure alot of the problem here is somebody disagrees with somebody else and from there it's just an ever-escalating verbal joust. Somewhere along the line both sides need to take a step back, refocus on the real objective, and move on from there. If we don't, we'll all destroy ATS.

Well said.. we need to start putting content into arguments again rather than just attacking the 'others sides' charactors. The ATS motto is to deny ignorance.. the constant bickering detracts from that.

reply to post by madnessinmysoul

i don't think asy or any of us crazy scientific evolutionists would have a problem with the creationist posts if they had scientific content and didn't rely on a complete misunderstanding of science and a general distortion of facts

And could, furthermore, keep a civil tongue in their heads.

the analogy would be better if it was a group of people who like throwing fecal matter at their neighbor's windows instead of a black family

What an absolutely spot-on (if you'll pardon the expression) analogy.

reply to post by undo



"" You have a spirit body encased in that crude matter we call flesh. ""


I like to think of it as our spacesuit, to survive on this planet...

I recently heard that during the 1st earth age, man had no body...


I'm still learning.

Love your comments...