More Americans Fear Losing Their Health Insurance Than Being in a Terrorist Attack

Originally posted by WhatTheory
What don't you understand?
How do you think the government will pay for this? By raising your taxes even further and it will have to be by a large amount.

Not if we cut the "defense" budget it wouldn't. Universal healthcare, combined with protectionism of American industry and workers, and a "pulling back" of our military forces around the world--ending the occupations of Iraq and Afghanistan, stopping our interventionist policy in foreign affairs, moving away from Cold War-era ideas like "force projection" and concentrating on actual self-defense, would go a long way toward saving our economy. Universal health care is GOD FOR BUSINESS because American companies can compete on even footing with companies based in nations that also have universal health care. What part of that do you not get?

And again, I'd gladly pay more in taxes than I do now for universal coverage I don't have to worry about or negotiate for or spend hours on the phone making a claim and filling out twelve tons of paperwork only to learn I'm not covered for X procedure. And in the end, what I or you or anyone else would pay in taxes would be far LESS than what you pay now for privatized, for-profit health care, because the cost is spread throughout society.

Why on Earth would you want the government to run healthcare anyway? What government program do you know of that is run efficiently and properly?

Most government programs USED to run just fine, thank you. It's Conservatives such as yourself, in their hatred of government and their rush to appease their corporate supporters, who purposely dismantled government services from within and filled agency leadership with under-qualified cronies. They hate government so much they broke it ON PURPOSE to "prove" that it doesn't work. And people like you fell for it. Congratulations.

Things would just get worse once the government gets involved.

Yeah, that's why we need to privatize everything, right? Police? Fire? Roads? Do you have ANY idea how much privatization of American infrastructure will cost us in the long run?

The Constitution DOES specifically state we have a right to be secure in our persons

So what?

So, the Government does things that are un-Constitutional all the damn time. Your own Prez says it's just a "damn piece of paper".

That does not mean to provide you with healthcare. Do you also want the government to purchase you a car and a house.

Nope. But again, think how much more money Americans would have to put back into the economy, and BUY cars, and houses, and consumer goods, if they didn't have to pay a vast amount of money for health care? An extra $1000/yr in taxes vs. $13,000+ out-of-pocket? For better coverage? Guaranteed? I think MOST Americans would see that as a pretty good bargain. And frankly, it's time health care was seen as what it's supposed to be:

A HUMAN RIGHT.

You're paying for your own as well.

Yeah, and I don't want to pay for yours. I work hard for my money and I want to keep it thank you.

And I work hard for MY money and yet I can't afford health care. There are more than 47 Million Americans just like me. What's YOUR solution to this problem?

Originally posted by budski
As far as WhatTheory goes, I'm just going to ignore him.
I don't wanna feed the troll - in every thread he takes up a contrary position and just posts to get a rise out of people, and I'm not buying into it.

Yeah, this is how you normally operate. You call anyone who does not agree with you a troll instead of debating the merits of the post.

Originally posted by WhatTheory

Originally posted by The Nighthawk
Is that not an American principle? Equal rights under the law? Why should health care not be added to this? Why be so selfish?

Umm....healthcare is not a right.

Yet.

What is selfish is wanting someone else's hard earned money and have it given to you.

Then selfishness is at the heart of Capitalism, because it's wholly based on that very idea.

reply to post by The Nighthawk


Let's not forget that with health insurance provided by private companies, you are not just paying for potential treatment, but also the wages of everyone who works there, premiums to the shareholders, and bonus's to the CEO's when they turn a big enough profit, not forgetting corporate lobbying so that the law always works in favour of the insurers and there's no reform.

Now take all that money, and put it into a social healthcare system - it would be the best in the world if people payed only ONE QUARTER of what they currently do.

Originally posted by WhatTheory

Originally posted by budski
As far as WhatTheory goes, I'm just going to ignore him.
I don't wanna feed the troll - in every thread he takes up a contrary position and just posts to get a rise out of people, and I'm not buying into it.

Yeah, this is how you normally operate. You call anyone who does not agree with you a troll instead of debating the merits of the post.

People debate the merits all the time. I have been all along. But, you don't care, you just keep on saying the same thing over and over again. You're not here to debate merits, just to fight and liberal-bash. Iggy for you.

reply to post by WhatTheory


Hmm - a member of only 2 months who "knows how I operate"

I smell a sock puppet.

Originally posted by WhatTheory

What is selfish is wanting someone else's hard earned money and have it given to you.

You know why I pay $750 a month in health insurance and huge deductibles? Because of people who dont have insurance and illegals who dont as well I have to pay their bill because the republicans refuse to curb the illegal immigration problem. So as far as Im concerned if the government doesnt want to solve the reason for high health care (paying for immigrants free healthcare and big bills) then they need to cover us all.

[edit on 21-5-2008 by mybigunit]

Originally posted by budski
reply to post by The Nighthawk

 

Let's not forget that with health insurance provided by private companies, you are not just paying for potential treatment, but also the wages of everyone who works there, premiums to the shareholders, and bonus's to the CEO's when they turn a big enough profit, not forgetting corporate lobbying so that the law always works in favour of the insurers and there's no reform.

Now take all that money, and put it into a social healthcare system - it would be the best in the world if people payed only ONE QUARTER of what they currently do.

Oh don't I know it!! Dennis Kucinich had a plan--expand Medicare to everyone on a voluntary basis, and let it openly compete with private insurers. With Medicare's much lower overhead it would be able to under-cut the big boys handily, and put them out of business. But, that's why his Presidential campaign went nowhere--his ideas were too good for Corporate Fatcat America to deal with, and Party leaders ham-strung his campaign in favor of their major donors.

Originally posted by The Nighthawk
Not if we cut the "defense" budget it wouldn't.

Sorry, but that still would not do it.
Besides, cutting the defense budget is crazy.

And again, I'd gladly pay more in taxes than I do now for universal coverage

Perhaps you would, but most would not.
Wanting to pay more taxes is just ludicrous. Nationalizing healthcare is a form of socialism and should not be tolerated in the U.S.

Most government programs USED to run just fine, thank you.

Really??
Please name some of them.

So, the Government does things that are un-Constitutional all the damn time.

Really, like what?
Is that a reason to continue doing unconstitutional things?

Your own Prez says it's just a "damn piece of paper".

Link??

Nope.

Then why would you want the government to give you healthcare if you don't believe the government should give you a car and a house?

And I work hard for MY money and yet I can't afford health care. There are more than 47 Million Americans just like me. What's YOUR solution to this problem?

For starter, that figure you mention is not accurate.
Secondly, if you went to the hospital for an emergency, you would get care. You would then have to set up a payment plan and pay the hospital.
Lastly, It should give you incentive to either further your education to get a better job or just find a better job.

Again, its selfish to want other people's hard earned money and have them give it to you just because you don't have something.

More Americans Fear Losing Their Health Insurance Than Being in a Terrorist Attack

Well that certainly makes sense, although you wouldn't know it based on the voting records of Americans! They seem more fixated on terrorists, abortion, gay marriage, and "family values." Funny. I guess healthcare has nothing to do with family values.

Originally posted by The Nighthawk
Then selfishness is at the heart of Capitalism, because it's wholly based on that very idea.

No, that is your twisted definition of it.
Capitalism give you the opportunity to make a better life for yourself and to become wealthy.

Originally posted by mybigunit
Because of people who dont have insurance and illegals who dont as well I have to pay their bill because the republicans refuse to curb the illegal immigration problem.

I agree that its a problem but you cannot blame it soley on republicans. Its both parties since this problem has been around for numerous Presidents and Congresses.

Originally posted by budski
Hmm - a member of only 2 months who "knows how I operate"

I smell a sock puppet.

Boy, you are so smart.
Lets see.......
How many posts have you made in the last 2 months? Enough to see how you operate since you call people trolls almost in every thread.
I lurked for a long time before registering. Oh, guess you did not think about that, did you smarty.
Lastly, way to prove my point by not debating.

Originally posted by WhatTheory
Sorry, but that still would not do it.
Besides, cutting the defense budget is crazy.

As crazy as creating new foreign enemies by mucking about in their sovereign affairs? Who, praytell, is our Great Enemy so powerful we need to spend more than half of the rest of the world COMBINED on defense?

And again, I'd gladly pay more in taxes than I do now for universal coverage

Perhaps you would, but most would not.
Wanting to pay more taxes is just ludicrous. Nationalizing healthcare is a form of socialism and should not be tolerated in the U.S.

Thank you, Mr. McCarthy. Now please go back to Hell and leave Whatheory's body, he can make a pompous fool of himself without your help.

Most government programs USED to run just fine, thank you.

Really??
Please name some of them.

Social Security, for one. It's only having problems because it's being dipped into to pay for things it was never meant to.

The INS. They used to be pretty savvy about enforcing immigration laws, both in catching illegals and punishing employers who hire them. Gutted. Why do you think there's been such a huge influx of illegals? Corporate America WANTS them here to depress wages.

FEMA. What was supposed to be the premiere agency for dealing with huge disasters was being run by a guy who failed at directing horse shows. FEMA should have been on-scene in NOLA whether or not they were requested by the local and state governments. They still haven't gotten their act together. Again, set up to fail on purpose.

So, the Government does things that are un-Constitutional all the damn time.

Really, like what?

Ye Gods!! Can you be so blind?!?!? Reading your mail and email, tracking your bank transactions, tapping your phones and tracking your position via your cellphone's signal, suspension of Habeus Corpus, suspension of the right to legal counsel, and an increasing number of incidents where searches take place without warrants, Oh, and of course the US Supreme Court's intervention in the 2000 elections... How much more do you need? Or do you just not believe any of it?

Is that a reason to continue doing unconstitutional things?

So you accept unconstitutional things that hurt those you percieve as "enemies" but those that would help EVERYONE you're against.

Your own Prez says it's just a "damn piece of paper".

Link??

Here

Here

And Here

Then why would you want the government to give you healthcare if you don't believe the government should give you a car and a house?

Because healthcare is different. It should be a right enjoyed by all citizens. By providing healthcare paid for via my taxes I have more money in my pocket to invest and pay for products and services. Why do you always take it to the extreme?

And I work hard for MY money and yet I can't afford health care. There are more than 47 Million Americans just like me. What's YOUR solution to this problem?

For starter, that figure you mention is not accurate.

Where's YOUR figures? And sources? Links please.

Secondly, if you went to the hospital for an emergency, you would get care. You would then have to set up a payment plan and pay the hospital.

But I shouldn't HAVE to. Don't you get the "Human Rights" part?

Lastly, It should give you incentive to either further your education to get a better job or just find a better job.

I don't have tens of thousands to spend on college for a degree in a field that may not exist when I'm done, and I'm not going to gamble by taking out student loans. As far as "getting a better job" they don't exist. If they did nobody would need one. In case you haven't noticed our economy is in the toilet, inflation is out of control and real wages are down. Where exactly are these "better jobs"? And will there be enough of them to hire all 47 Million of us?

Again, its selfish to want other people's hard earned money and have them give it to you just because you don't have something.

And again, that's the very basis of Capitalism.

I'm done with you. You don't want to debate, just liberal-bash. This is a pointless exercise.

[edit on 5/21/2008 by The Nighthawk]

reply to post by The Nighthawk


It's been showm many times that capitalism doesn't work, and is merely another way of controlling the populace, whilst ensuring that the few at the top remain rich and in fact get richer - at our expense.

Unfortunately some still cling to the idea that they can live "the american dream" by suddenly becoming wealthy - when in fact, it's usually a sop thrown out to the fortunate few in order to maintain the illusion and keep everyone working for "the man"

The only winners are the corrupt politicians and the corporate cronies - as usual, the people who do the real work are the ones who suffer most.

BTW - in the UK we have (mostly) free education. And whilst it may be true that some have to pay a small amount, OR borrow small amounts in student loans to cover living expenses, the difference in cost compared to the states is massive.


[edit on 21/5/2008 by budski]

Originally posted by budski

More Americans Fear Losing Their Health Insurance Than Being in a Terrorist Attack

I haven't had health insurance for 15 years now due to the job I have now and how expensive it is.

I worry I will never have health insurance more than I worry about the governments fear mongering about terrorist attacks!

I might have missed it, but, when was the last terrorist attack in the world. Outside Israel and Iraq.

[edit on 5/21/2008 by Keyhole]

Originally posted by groingrinder
That makes sense. Both situations are brought on by Republicans.

Check this site out and you will see that the health care industry does not exclusively own republicans.

opensecrets

This is a shell game that is lucrative to the highest degree.

Originally posted by The Nighthawk
Thank you, Mr. McCarthy. Now please go back to Hell and leave Whatheory's body, he can make a pompous fool of himself without your help.

Hey, sorry if the truth hurts.

Social Security, for one. It's only having problems because it's being dipped into to pay for things it was never meant to.

SS is bankrupt and very troubled. Even yourself says it is not working. Do you realize SS was only supposed to be temporary? What happened? It ballooned like most government projects and has become corrupt. I wish I could opt out and invest my own money. Sorry, but that is not a good example as an effiecently run government project as yourself has stated.

The INS. They used to be pretty savvy about enforcing immigration laws

Again, as you stated, "used to be". Government just cannot implement and maintain an efficient program.

FEMA. What was supposed to be the premiere agency for dealing with huge disasters

Again, you said, "supposed to be". Do I have to bring up Katrina?
So basically we have another failed program.

So you accept unconstitutional things that hurt those you percieve as "enemies" but those that would help EVERYONE you're against.

Of course not but you are the one who said you don't care if it's unconstitutional. You said you want universal healthcare even though its unconstitutional.

Your own Prez says it's just a "damn piece of paper".

Sorry, but all your links reference the same dubious story from a political hack. I'm not buying it. Why should I take this one hack's word for it?

Because healthcare is different. It should be a right enjoyed by all citizens.

But its not a right as defined by our constitution.

By providing healthcare paid for via my taxes I have more money in my pocket to invest and pay for products and services.

Do you hear what you are saying. It makes no sense.
How are you going to have more money when the government will take your money to pay for healthcare. It's just not logical.

But I shouldn't HAVE to. Don't you get the "Human Rights" part?

Yes, you should have to. It's not a human right for you to take other people money in order to pay for your healthcare. Its not a human right for the government to tax people to pay for healthcare. Boy, I wonder how the U.S. became such a great and powerful nation up to this point without universal healthcare.

I don't have tens of thousands to spend on college for a degree in a field that may not exist when I'm done, and I'm not going to gamble by taking out student loans.

Well then, that is your problem. That is what most people do to better themselves instead of relying on other people money. Hell, that's what I did and am still paying off the loan. So because YOU don't want to take a risk, I am supposed to support you? Sorry, life don't work that way.

As far as "getting a better job" they don't exist.

Of course they do. The U.S. has one of the lowest unemployment rates in its history even with all the illegals taking up valuable jobs.

And again, that's the very basis of Capitalism.

No, that is socialism and marxism.

I'm done with you. You don't want to debate, just liberal-bash. This is a pointless exercise.

What? It sounds more like you are sore because deep down you know I am correct. We have been having a good debate and there have been no bashing going on.

Originally posted by budski
It's been showm many times that capitalism doesn't work

Care to give some examples?

Unfortunately some still cling to the idea that they can live "the american dream" by suddenly becoming wealthy

Because it's true. Hell, someone became wealthy by inventing a pet rock for goodness sakes. It can only happen here because of capitalism.

BTW - in the UK we have (mostly) free education.

Its not free. The government takes it out of your earnings. The same with healthcare.
BTW, the same is true here in the U.S. with public schools. I wonder why private schools produce more educated kids and do it with a lot less money. Because nothing good comes from government getting involved with social issues.

reply to post by Keyhole


Hey - it's not myheadline.

I just posted it!