God is fake!

reply to post by whitesatan


Are you seriously gonna tell me that you don't contradict yourself? I told you that you would twist my words around and here we go...

I said:

and the earth was without form... this is because of the cosmic battle that Satan and God had with each other. Satan destroyed the earth and all life on it, explaining the extinction of dinosaurs, then God renewed the earth with new life on it along with the creation of man.

You said:

Dinosaurs died because the world froze over. The Earth was never blown up. You are pretty stuupid if You say the world was blown up because I just looked outside and the world was there.

Now lets analyze this twisting of words. I said that Satan destroyed the earth, not blow it up. Destroying the earth does not necessarily mean that the entire globe had to be decimated into oblivion... it simply means that the earth's life and eco-system were destroyed. Also you might want to check your facts about the dinosaurs because science already mentions the fact that a comet destroyed them. Ice killed off the mammals that preceeded the dinos like the mammoth and sabertooth tiger. A comet... which sounds like it came from the cosmos of the universe. A comet can destroy life on earth, but not blow it up.

so you twisted what I said... I said "destroyed" not "Blown up". So you did indeed twist my words. Wait, I have more.

You decided to quote me to make me look bad only you didn't finish the quote I said.
You reposted my partial quote here:

"I don't know what I'm talking about"

Yet my full quote read:

"I'm sure you'll twist your own words around to make it seem like I don't know what I'm talking about"

So in all fairness, I'll do the exact same thing to you and let you choke on it. Whitesatan said:

"The Big Bang doesn't disprove God's existence"



I'm sorry but I'm not the one on the floor crying. This is one of many times that me or another person on this thread caught you lieing or contradicting yourself. You did twist my words around and/or left parts of my quote out to make it look worse than it did. That is a childish trick on here and only proves further that you're a troll trying to keep a thread going for the sake of entertainment of argument and ats/bts points. I'll play along though because I will find nothing but contradictions in your posts due to your mild comprehension of the bible and history. I saw you define "inferred" and it looks like you googled it at webster.com and copied and pasted it. Anyone at a computer could do that and the language and grammar of the definition did not match up with your horrible grammar and spelling in your posts. Your trickery only works on the feeble-minded audience and believe me, you're a lone wolf in this thread. Why haven't your athiest buddies come to your aid? Because they know the way you're arguing is stupid and makes no sense.

.....and now it's time to hear some more contradictions from whitesatan....

On a side note, someone mentioned the name "Lucifer" was not evil. Indeed you are right because Lucifer was Satan's name while he was still an angel. Fallen angels are demons and Lucifer's demon name is Satan. Either way, we are talking about the same evil spirit.

Again the Earth was not destroyed. The world froze over explaining the real extinction of dinosaurs.

com·et
–noun Astronomy.
a celestial body moving about the sun, usually in a highly eccentric orbit, consisting of a central mass surrounded by an envelope of dust and gas that may form a tail that streams away from the sun.

Doesn't say God and Satan fighting.

If Satan really did destroy the world then why hasn't he done it again. He has the power.
Wow i twisted my words because I said blow up not destroyed. Well they have same basic meanings. If you throw a grenade what does it do. It blows up killing anything near it. So blow up refers to an object that killed everything. Man you are as dumb as a box of rocks.

It is still a direct quote and it says you don't know what you are talking about here. You are now twisting your words up to make it look like you are innocent which you are not.


"The Big Bang doesn't disprove God's existence"

"I'm sorry but I'm not the one on the floor crying. This is one of many times that me or another person on this thread caught you lieing or contradicting yourself."

lieing huh... I don't believe the quot about the big bang is a lie. If you think so then you obviously agree with me. You would then be saying that it does disprove Gods existence. Wow thanks for clerifying my point once again.

I am not a God Damn troll. I could care a less about the points. I am just proving my point that you are to stubborn to realize. Get that through you very tiny brain. If you would seriously look at the facts then you would see my argument but you are to stubborn to.

My atheist buddies haven't come to my aid because I have already proven my point. Why waste time and energy proving something that is already proven.

"I saw you define "inferred" and it looks like you googled it at webster.com and copied and pasted it."

Yes I did look it up because none of you knew what it meant. Just trying to save you the trouble of looking a word up that you don't know the meaning to.

".....and now it's time to hear some more contradictions from whitesatan....

On a side note, someone mentioned the name "Lucifer" was not evil. Indeed you are right because Lucifer was Satan's name while he was still an angel. Fallen angels are demons and Lucifer's demon name is Satan. Either way, we are talking about the same evil spirit."

Really when did I say this. Show me I would really like to know. You my friend are have no sense of the truth. Well why should you I can see that you don't deserve it at this point because you are to stubborn to learn the real truth.

Take it like a man and admit defeat. It would save you a lot of your wasted time and energy.

Let us take a look at the real proof from he website. I wouldn't take Alcoves word for it since he has no idea what so ever of what these proofs mean.


Proof #1 - Try praying

What would happen if we get down on our knees and pray to God in this way:

Dear God, almighty, all-powerful, all-loving creator of the universe, we pray to you to cure every case of cancer on this planet tonight. We pray in faith, knowing you will bless us as you describe in Matthew 7:7, Matthew 17:20, Matthew 21:21, Mark 11:24, John 14:12-14, Matthew 18:19 and James 5:15-16. In Jesus' name we pray, Amen.

We pray sincerely, knowing that when God answers this completely heartfelt, unselfish, non-materialistic prayer, it will glorify God and help millions of people in remarkable ways.

Will anything happen? No. Of course not.

This is very odd. Jesus makes specific promises in the Bible about how prayer is supposed to work. Jesus says in many different places that he and God will answer your prayers. And Christians believe Jesus -- according to this recent article, "54% of American adults believe the Bible is literally true." In some areas of the country the number goes as high as 75%.

If the Bible is literally true, then something is seriously amiss. Simply look at the facts. In Matthew 7:7 Jesus says:

Ask, and it will be given you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For every one who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. Or what man of you, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a serpent? If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him!

If "every one who asks receives", then if we ask for cancer to be cured, it should be cured. Right? If "our Father who is in heaven gives good things to those who ask him", then if we ask him to cure cancer, he should cure it. Right? And yet nothing happens.

In Matthew 17:20 Jesus says:

For truly, I say to you, if you have faith as a grain of mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move; and nothing will be impossible to you.

If "nothing will be impossible to you", then if we ask to cure cancer tonight, cancer should disappear. Right? Yet nothing happens. Note that if we take the Bible less-than-literally here, the statement "nothing will be impossible to you" becomes "lots of things will be impossible to you," and that would mean that Jesus is lying.

In Matthew 21:21:

I tell you the truth, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and it will be done. If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer.

If "you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer", then if we ask to cure cancer tonight, cancer should dissappear. Right? Yet nothing happens. Note again that there is not a non-literal way to interpret "you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer", unless you replace "whatever" with "nothing" or "little."

The message is reiterated Mark 11:24:

Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours.

If God says, "believe that you have received it, and it will be yours," and if we believe in God and his power, then what should happen if we pray to cure cancer tonight? It should be cured. Either that, or God is lying.

In John chapter 14, verses 12 through 14, Jesus tells all of us just how easy prayer can be:

"I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father. You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it." [ref]

Look at how direct this statement is: "You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it." This is the "Son of God" speaking. Have we taken him "too literally?" No. This is a simple, unambiguous statement. Have we taken his statement "out of context?" No - Jesus uses the word anyone. Yet Jesus' statement is obviously false. Because when we ask God to cure cancer tonight, nothing happens.

We see the same thing over and over again...

In Matthew 18:19 Jesus says:

Again I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

In James 5:15-16 the Bible says:

And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise him up. If he has sinned, he will be forgiven. Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective.

In Mark 9:23:

All things are possible to him who believes.

In Luke 1:37:

For with God nothing will be impossible.

Nothing could be simpler or clearer than Jesus' promises about prayer in the Bible. Yet, when we pray to eliminate cancer, nothing happens.

And keep in mind that this is Jesus talking here. These are not the words of human beings. These are not the words of "inspired" human beings. These are supposedly the words of God himself, incarnated in a human body. Jesus is supposed to be a perfect, sinless being. And yet, it is obvious that Jesus is lying. What Jesus says is clearly incorrect.

Proof #2 - Statistically analyze prayer

The fact is, God never answers any prayers. The entire idea that "God answers prayers" is an illusion created by human imagination.

How do we know that "answered prayers" are illusions? We simply perform scientific experiments. We ask a group of believers to pray for something and then we watch what happens. What we find, whenever we test the efficacy of prayer scientifically, is that prayer has zero effect:

* It does not matter who prays.
* It does not matter if we pray to God, Allah, Vishnu, Zeus, Ra or any other human god.
* It does not matter what we pray about.

If we perform scientific, double-blind tests on prayer, and if the prayers involve something concrete and measurable (for example, healing people with cancer), we know that there is zero effect from prayer. Every single "answered prayer" is nothing more than a coincidence. Both scientific experiments and your everyday observations of the world show this to be the case every single time.

For example, this article says:

One of the most scientifically rigorous studies yet, published earlier this month, found that the prayers of a distant congregation did not reduce the major complications or death rate in patients hospitalized for heart treatments.

And:

A review of 17 past studies of ''distant healing," published in 2003 by a British researcher, found no significant effect for prayer or other healing methods.

This article from March, 2006 discusses the fact that the same conclusion was reached in another study:

In the largest study of its kind, researchers found that having people pray for heart bypass surgery patients had no effect on their recovery. In fact, patients who knew they were being prayed for had a slightly higher rate of complications.

In this article we find an amazing quote where theologians and religious leaders declare that prayer has no actual effect:

Religious leaders will breathe a sigh of relief at the news that so-called intercessory prayer is medically ineffective. In a large and much touted scientific study, one group of patients was told that strangers would pray for them, a second group was told strangers might or might not pray for them, and a third group was not prayed for at all. The $2.4 million study found that the strangers' prayers did not help patients' recovery.

This is a remarkable example of "positive spin" -- religious leaders are "breathing a sigh of relief" because prayer has been shown to be meaningless. The fact that prayer is a total waste of time does not matter to them. It does not matter that all of Jesus' promises about prayer in the Bible have been proven completely false.

A peer-reviewed scientific study published in 2001 did indicate that prayer works. According to this article:

"On October 2, 2001, the New York Times reported that researchers at prestigious Columbia University Medical Center in New York had discovered something quite extraordinary. Using virtually foolproof scientific methods the researchers had demonstrated that infertile women who were prayed for by Christian prayer groups became pregnant twice as often as those who did not have people praying for them. The study was published in the Journal of Reproductive Medicine. Even the researchers were shocked. The study's results could only be described as miraculous."

This study was later proven to be completely fraudulent. However, everyone who cut out the original article in the NYTimes and posted it on their refrigerators still has that article as "proof" that prayer works.

This article entitled A prayer before dying uncovers another case where a "scientific study" of prayer is unmasked as fraudulent.

It's not just prayer that is ineffective. Not even a hopeful attitude helps. According to this article:

A positive attitude does not improve the chances of surviving cancer and doctors who encourage patients to keep up hope may be burdening them, according to the results of research released Monday.

The dictionary defines the word "superstition" in this way:

An irrational belief that an object, action, or circumstance not logically related to a course of events influences its outcome. [ref]

The belief in prayer is a superstition. It has been proven scientifically over and over again. When a prayer appears to be answered, it is a coincidence. Quite simply, prayer has absolutely no effect on the outcome of any event. The "power of prayer" is actually "the power of coincidence."

Prayer does not work because God is completely imaginary.

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Understanding the Rationalizations

You can find many believers who will say, "The reason why scientific experiments fail to detect God is because God must remain hidden. He does not answer prayers if he knows that he will be detected."

In order to see the truth, you need to accept that this explanation is silly. If God must remain hidden, then he cannot answer any prayers. Any "answered prayer" would expose God.

The whole notion that "God" must remain "hidden" is a total cross-threading of religious doctrine. On the one hand, believers will say that "God wrote the Bible, God incarnated himself and died on the cross for us, and God answers millions of prayers on earth every day." Then in the next breath they will say, "God must remain hidden." God obviously cannot "remain hidden" and "incarnate himself." These two items are mutually exclusive. Therefore, the explanation that "God must remain hidden" is impossible. As soon as you accept how impossible it is, you can begin to see see that God is imaginary.

In order to see the truth, you need to accept the fact that the scientific evidence is accurate and irrefutable. We have scientifically proven that God does not answer any prayers on earth. Every single "answered prayer" is nothing more than a coincidence.

We can see reality by looking at a simple example. Imagine that the rate of remission for some particularly nasty type of cancer is 5%. That means that if 20 people get this type of cancer, it is almost always fatal. Only one in twenty of the people who get the disease will survive. Knowing this, you can see what happens if we actually analyze prayer:

* 20 believers contract the disease
* All of them have read James 5:15, so all of them pray.
* 19 of them die

The rest of two

* The one who lives proclaims, "I prayed to the Lord and the Lord answered my prayers! My disease is cured! It is a miracle! I KNEW God would answer my prayers!"
* You never hear about the 19 who died. No one ever writes about them in a magazine. "Person prays, then dies" is not a great headline. And since they are dead, you will never hear from any of these people.
* Therefore, if you don't look at all the facts around the "answered prayer," and you only hear about the one out of twenty prayers that succeed, it appears that prayer is successful.

The fact is, believers who pray die from this disease at exactly the same rate as people who do not.

We can see the reality of this situation simply by opening our eyes and looking at the data. But we do have to open our eyes -- We have to look at both the successes AND the failures of prayer to see the reality of our world. When we take a scientific approach and we do look at both sides, we see what is really happening. God does not answer any prayers because God is imaginary.

Proof #7 - Understanding religious delusion

Let's imagine that I tell you the following story:

* There is a man who lives at the North Pole.
* He lives there with his wife and a bunch of elves.
* During the year, he and the elves build toys.
* Then, on Christmas Eve, he loads up a sack with all the toys.
* He puts the sack in his sleigh.
* He hitches up eight (or possibly nine) flying reindeer.
* He then flies from house to house, landing on the rooftops of each one.
* He gets out with his sack and climbs down the chimney.
* He leaves toys for the children of the household.
* He climbs back up the chimney, gets back in his sleigh, and flies to the next house.
* He does this all around the world in one night.
* Then he flies back to the North Pole to repeat the cycle next year.

This, of course, is the story of Santa Claus.

But let's say that I am an adult, and I am your friend, and I reveal to you that I believe that this story is true. I believe it with all my heart. And I try to talk about it with you and convert you to believe it as I do.

What would you think of me? You would think that I am delusional, and rightly so.

Why do you think that I am delusional? It is because you know that Santa is imaginary. The story is a total fairy tale. No matter how much I talk to you about Santa, you are not going to believe that Santa is real. Flying reindeer, for example, are make-believe. The dictionary defines delusion as, "A false belief strongly held in spite of invalidating evidence." That definition fits perfectly.

Since you are my friend, you might try to help me realize that my belief in Santa is a delusion. The way that you would try to do that is by asking me some questions. For example, you might say to me:

* "But how can the sleigh carry enough toys for everyone in the world?" I say to you that the sleigh is magical. It has the ability to do this intrinsically.

* "How does Santa get into houses and apartments that don't have chimneys?" I say that Santa can make chimneys appear, as shown to all of us in the movie The Santa Clause.

* "How does Santa get down the chimney if there's a fire in the fireplace?" I say that Santa has a special flame-resistant suit, and it cleans itself too.

* "Why doesn't the security system detect Santa?" Santa is invisible to security systems.

* "How can Santa travel fast enough to visit every child in one night?" Santa is timeless.

* "How can Santa know whether every child has been bad or good?" Santa is omniscient.

* "Why are the toys distributed so unevenly? Why does Santa deliver more toys to rich kids, even if they are bad, than he ever gives to poor kids?" There is no way for us to understand the mysteries of Santa because we are mere mortals, but Santa has his reasons. For example, perhaps poor children would be unable to handle a flood of expensive electronic toys. How would they afford the batteries? So Santa spares them this burden.

These are all quite logical questions that you have asked. I have answered all of them for you. I am wondering why you can't see what I see, and you are wondering how I can be so insane.

Why didn't my answers satisfy you? Why do you still know that I am delusional? It is because my answers have done nothing but confirm your assessment. My answers are ridiculous. In order to answer your questions, I invented, completely out of thin air, a magical sleigh, a magical self-cleaning suit, magical chimneys, "timelessness" and magical invisibility. You don't believe my answers because you know that I am making this stuff up. The invalidating evidence is voluminous.

Now let me show you another example...

Another Example

Imagine that I tell you the following story:

* I was in my room one night.
* Suddenly, my room became exceedingly bright.
* Next thing I know there is an angel in my room.
* He tells me an amazing story.
* He says that there is a set of ancient golden plates buried in the side of a hill in New York.
* On them are the books of a lost race of Jewish people who inhabited North America.
* These plates bear inscriptions in the foreign language of these people.
* Eventually the angel leads me to the plates and lets me take them home.
* Even though the plates are in a foreign language, the angel helps me to decipher and translate them.
* Then the plates are taken up into heaven, never to be seen again.
* I have the book that I translated from the plates. It tells of amazing things -- an entire civilization of Jewish people living here in the United States 2,000 years ago.
* And the resurrected Jesus came and visited these people!
* I also showed the golden plates to a number of real people who are my eye witnesses, and I have their signed attestations that they did, in fact, see and touch the plates before the plates were taken up into heaven.

Now, what would you say to me about this story? Even though I do have a book, in English, that tells the story of this lost Jewish civilization, and even though I do have the signed attestations, what do you think? This story sounds nutty, doesn't it?

You would ask some obvious questions. For example, at the very simplest level, you might ask, "Where are the ruins and artifacts from this Jewish civilization in America?" The book transcribed from the plates talks about millions of Jewish people doing all kinds of things in America. They have horses and oxen and chariots and armor and large cities. What happened to all of this? I answer simply: it is all out there, but we have not found it yet. "Not one city? Not one chariot wheel? Not one helmet?" you ask. No, we haven't found a single bit of evidence, but it is out there somewhere. You ask me dozens of questions like this, and I have answers for them all.

Most people would assume that I am delusional if I told them this story. They would assume that there were no plates and no angel, and that I had written the book myself. Most people would ignore the attestations -- having people attest to it means nothing, really. I could have paid the attesters off, or I could have fabricated them. Most people would reject my story without question.

Here is more of 7.

What's interesting is that there are millions of people who actually do believe this story of the angel and the plates and the book and the Jewish people living in North America 2,000 years ago. Those millions of people are members of the Mormon Church, headquartered in Salt Lake City, Utah. The person who told this incredible story was a man named Joseph Smith, and he lived in the United States in the early 1800s. He told his story, and recorded what he "translated from the plates", in the Book of Mormon.

If you meet a Mormon and ask them about this story, they can spend hours talking to you about it. They can answer every question you have. Yet the 5.99 billion of us who are not Mormons can see with total clarity that the Mormons are delusional. It is as simple as that. You and I both know with 100% certainty that the Mormon story is no different from the story of Santa. And we are correct in our assessment. The invalidating evidence is voluminous.

Another example

Imagine that I tell you this story:

* A man was sitting in a cave minding his own business.
* A very bright flash of light appeared.
* A voice spoke out one word: "Read!" The man felt like he was being squeezed to death. This happened several times.
* Then the man asked, "What should I read?"
* The voice said, "Read in the name of your Lord who created humans from a clinging [zygote]. Read for your Lord is the most generous. He taught people by the pen what they didn't know before."
* The man ran home to his wife.
* While running home, he saw the huge face of an angel in the sky. The angel told the man that he was to be the messenger of God. The angel also identified himself as Gabriel.
* At home that night, the angel appeared to the man in his dreams.
* Gabriel appeared to the man over and over again. Sometimes it was in dreams, sometimes during the day as "revelations in his heart," sometimes preceded by a painful ringing in his ears (and then the verses would flow from Gabriel right out of the man), and sometimes Gabriel would appear in the flesh and speak. Scribes wrote down everything the man said.
* Then, one night about 11 years after the first encounter with Gabriel, Gabriel appeared to the man with a magical horse. The man got on the horse, and the horse took him to Jerusalem. Then the winged horse took the man up to the seven layers of heaven. The man was able to actually see heaven and meet and talk with people there. Then Gabriel brought the man back to earth.
* The man proved that he had actually been to Jerusalem on the winged horse by accurately answering questions about buildings and landmarks there.
* The man continued receiving the revelations from Gabriel for 23 years, and then they stopped. All of the revelations were recorded by the scribes in a book which we still have today.
[Source: "Understanding Islam" by Yahiya Emerick, Alpha press, 2002]

What do you make of this story? If you have never heard the story before, you may find it to be nonsensical in the same way that you feel about the stories of the golden plates and Santa. You would especially feel that way once you read the book that was supposedly transcribed from Gabriel, because much of it is opaque. The dreams, the horse, the angel, the ascension, and the appearances of the angel in the flesh -- you would dismiss them all because it is all imaginary.

But you need to be careful. This story is the foundation of the Muslim religion, practiced by more than a billion people around the world. The man is named Mohammed, and the book is the Koran (also spelled Qur'an or Qur'aan). This is the sacred story of the Koran's creation and the revelation of Allah to mankind.

Despite the fact that a billion Muslims profess some level of belief in this story, people outside the Muslim faith consider the story to be imaginary. No one believes this story because this story is a fairy tale. They consider the Koran to be a book written by a man and nothing more. A winged horse that flew to heaven? That is imaginary -- as imaginary as flying reindeer.

If you are a Christian, please take a moment right now to look back at the Mormon and Muslim stories. Why is it so easy for you to look at these stories and see that they are imaginary fairy tales? How do you know, with complete certainty, that Mormons and Muslims are delusional? You know these things for the same reason you know that Santa is imaginary. There is no evidence for any of it. The stories involve magical things like angels and winged horses, hallucinations, dreams. Horses cannot fly -- we all know that. And even if they could, where would the horse fly to? The vacuum of space? Or is the horse somehow "dematerialized" and then "rematerialized" in heaven? If so, those processes are made up too. Every bit of it is imaginary. We all know that.

An unbiased observer can see how imaginary these three stories are. In addition, Muslims can see that Mormons are delusional, Mormons can see that Muslims are delusional, and Christians can see that both Mormons and Muslims are delusional.

One final example

Now let me tell you one final story:

* God inseminated a virgin named Mary, in order to bring his son incarnate into our world.
* Mary and her fiancé, Joseph, had to travel to Bethlehem to register for the census. There Mary gave birth to the Son of God.
* God put a star in the sky to guide people to the baby.
* In a dream God told Joseph to take his family to Egypt. Then God stood by and watched as Herod killed thousands and thousands of babies in Israel in an attempt to kill Jesus.
* As a man, God's son claimed that he was God incarnate: "I am the way, the truth and the life," he said.
* This man performed many miracles. He healed lots of sick people. He turned water into wine. These miracles prove that he is God.
* But he was eventually given the death sentence and killed by crucifixion.
* His body was placed in a tomb.
* But three days later, the tomb was empty.
* And the man, alive once again but still with his wounds (so anyone who doubted could see them and touch them), appeared to many people in many places.
* Then he ascended into heaven and now sits at the right hand of God the father almighty, never to be seen again.

Here is more of 7.

* Today you can have a personal relationship with the Lord Jesus. You can pray to this man and he will answer your prayers. He will cure your diseases, rescue you from emergencies, help you make important business and family decisions, comfort you in times of worry and grief, etc.
* This man will also give you eternal life, and if you are good he has a place for you in heaven after you die.
* The reason we know all this is because, after the man died, four people named Matthew, Mark, Luke and John wrote accounts of the man's life. Their written attestations are proof of the veracity of this story.

This, of course, is the story of Jesus. Do you believe this story? If you are a Christian, you probably do. I could ask you questions for hours and you will have answers for every one of them, in just the same way that I had answers for all of the Santa questions that my friend asked me in Example 1. You cannot understand how anyone could question any of it, because it is so obvious to you.

Here is the thing that I would like to help you understand: The four billion people who are not Christians look at the Christian story in exactly the same way that you look at the Santa story, the Mormon story and the Muslim story. In other words, there are four billion people who stand outside of the Christian bubble, and they can see reality clearly. The fact is, the Christian story is completely imaginary.

How do the four billion non-Christians know, with complete certainty, that the Christian story is imaginary? Because the Christian story is just like the Santa story, the Mormon story and the Muslim story. There is the magical insemination, the magical star, the magical dreams, the magical miracles, the magical resurrection, the magical ascension and so on. People outside the Christian faith look at the Christian story and note these facts:

* The miracles are supposed to "prove" that Jesus is God, but, predictably, these miracles left behind no tangible evidence for us to examine and scientifically verify today. They all involved faith healings and magic tricks - see this proof.

* Jesus is resurrected, but, predictably, he does not appear to anyone today - see this proof.

* Jesus ascended into heaven and answers our prayers, but, predictably, when we pray to him nothing happens. We can statistically analyse prayer and find that prayers are never answered - see this proof.

* The book where Matthew, Mark, Luke and John make their attestations does exist, but, predictably, it is chock full of problems and contradictions - see this proof.

* And so on.

In other words, the Christian story is a fairly tale, just like the other three examples we have examined.

Now, look at what is happening inside your mind at this moment. I am using solid, verifiable evidence to show you that the Christian story is imaginary. Your rational mind can see the evidence. Four billion non-Christians would be happy to confirm for you that the Christian story is imaginary. However, if you are a practicing Christian, you can probably feel your "religious mind" overriding both your rational mind and your common sense as we speak. Why? Why were you able to use your common sense to so easily reject the Santa story, the Mormon story and the Muslim story, but when it comes to the Christian story, which is just as imaginary, you are not?

Try, just for a moment, to look at Christianity with the same amount of healthy skepticism that you used when approaching the stories of Santa, Joseph Smith and Mohammed. Use your common sense to ask some very simple questions of yourself:

* Is there any physical evidence that Jesus existed? - No. He left no trace. His body "ascended into heaven." He wrote nothing down. None of his "miracles" left any permanent evidence. There is, literally, nothing.

* Is there any reason to believe that Jesus actually performed these miracles, or that he rose from the dead, or that he ascended into heaven? - There is no more of a reason to believe this than there is to believe that Joseph Smith found the golden plates hidden in New York, or that Mohammed rode on a magical winged horse to heaven. Probably less of a reason, given that the record of Jesus' life is 2,000 years old, while that of Joseph Smith is less than 200 years old.

* You mean to tell me that I am supposed to believe this story of Jesus, and there is no proof or evidence to go by beyond a few attestations in the New Testament of a Bible that is provably meaningless? - Yes, you are supposed to believe it. You are supposed to take it on "faith."

No one (besides little kids) believes in Santa Claus. No one outside the Mormon church believes Joseph Smith's story. No one outside the Muslim faith believes the story of Mohammed and Gabriel and the winged horse. No one outside the Christian faith believes in Jesus' divinity, miracles, resurrection, etc.

Therefore, the question I would ask you to consider right now is simple: Why is it that human beings can detect fairy tales with complete certainty when those fairy tales come from other faiths, but they cannot detect the fairy tales that underpin their own faith? Why do they believe their chosen fairy tale with unrelenting passion and reject the others as nonsense? For example:

* Christians know that when the Egyptians built gigantic pyramids and mummified the bodies of their pharaohs, that it was a total waste of time -- otherwise Christians would build pyramids.

* Christians know that when the Aztecs carved the heart out of a virgin and ate it, that it accomplished nothing -- otherwise Christians would kill virgins.

* Christians know that when Muslims face Mecca to pray, that it is pointless -- otherwise Christians would face Mecca when they pray.

* Christians know that when Jews keep meat and dairy products separate, that they are wasting their time -- otherwise the cheeseburger would not be an American obsession.

Yet, when Christians look at their own religion, they are for some reason blind. Why? And no, it has nothing to do with the fact that the Christian story is true. Your rational mind knows that with certainty, and so do four billion others. This book, if you will let it, can tell you why.

The rest of 7. Enjoy

A simple experiment

If you are a Christian who believes in the power of prayer, here is a very simple experiment that will show you something very interesting about your faith.

Take a coin out of your pocket. Now pray sincerely to Ra:

Dear Ra, almighty sun god, I am going to flip this ordinary coin 50 times, and I am asking you to cause it to land heads-side-up all 50 times. In Ra's name I pray, Amen.

Now flip the coin. Chances are that you won't get past the fifth or sixth flip and the coin will land tails.

What does this mean? Most people would look at this data and conclude that Ra is imaginary. We prayed to Ra, and Ra did nothing. We can prove that Ra is imaginary (at least in the sense of prayer-answering ability) by using statistical analysis. If we flip the coin thousands of times, praying to Ra each time, we will find that the coin lands heads or tails in exact correlation with the normal laws of probability. Ra has absolutely no effect on the coin no matter how much we pray. Even if we find a thousand of Ra's most faithful believers and ask them to do the praying/flipping, the results will be the same. Therefore, as rational people, we conclude that Ra is imaginary. We look at Ra in the same way that we look at Leprechauns, Mermaids, Santa and so on. We know that people who believe in Ra are delusional.

Now I want you to try the experiment again, but this time I want you to pray to Jesus Christ instead of Ra. Pray sincerely to Jesus like this:

Dear Jesus, I know that you exist and I know that you hear and answer prayers as you promise in the Bible. I am going to flip this ordinary coin 50 times, and I am asking you to cause it to land heads-side-up all 50 times. In Jesus' name I pray, Amen.

Now flip the coin. Once again, after the fifth or sixth flip, the coin will land tails.

If we flip the coin thousands of times, praying to Jesus each time, we will find that the coin lands heads or tails in exact correlation with the normal laws of probability. It is not like there are two laws of probability -- one for Christians who pray and the other for non-Christians. There is only one law of probability because prayers have zero effect. Jesus has no effect on our planet no matter how much we pray. We can prove that conclusively using statitical analysis.

If you believe in God, watch what is happening inside your mind right now. The data is absolutely identical in both experiments. With Ra you looked at the data rationally and concluded that Ra is imaginary. But with Jesus... something else will happen. In your mind, you are already coming up with a thousand rationalizations to explain why Jesus did not answer your prayers:

* It is not his will
* He doesn't have time
* I didn't pray the right way
* I am not worthy
* I do not have enough faith
* I cannot test the Lord like this
* It is not part of Jesus' plan for me
* And on and on and on...

One rationalization that you may find yourself developing is particularly interesting. You may say to yourself: “Well, of course Jesus doesn’t answer me when I pray about a coin toss, because it is too trivial." Where did this rationalization come from? If you read what Jesus says about prayer in the Bible (see this proof), Jesus does not ever say, "don't pray to me about coin tosses." Jesus clearly says he will answer your prayers, and he puts no boundaries on what you may pray for. You invented this rationalization out of thin air.

You are an expert at creating rationalizations for Jesus. The reason you are an expert is because Jesus does not answer any of your prayers (see this proof). The reason why Jesus does not answer any of your prayers is because Jesus and God are imaginary.

I was raised Catholic so I have a pretty good idea of who your so called God is. God is imaginary and the universe is not imaginary. You know how I know. I'm not dead that is how I know.
I think the anawim is a great example of how God can not be real. If he was real then he wouldn't allow suffering in the world.

reply to post by Alcove

Disclaimer: I'm a theist but not of the Abrahamic faiths. I have minor biblical scholar and scriptural skills. Also I'm not a scientific,legal or medical expert in any field. Beware my Contagious Memes! All of this is my personal conjecture and should not be considered the absolute or most definitive state
of things as they really are. Use this information at your own risk! I accept no liability if your ideology comes crashing down around you with accompanying consequences!

Explanation: N/A

Personal disclosure: Well done Alcove as you went to the site and are placing arguments (which I don't readily agree with but lets not quibble) to the points raised.I'm doing this myself but far slower (I admire your speed). You earned a star from me!

Originally posted by whitesatan
I was raised Catholic so I have a pretty good idea of who your so called God is. God is imaginary and the universe is not imaginary. You know how I know. I'm not dead that is how I know.
I think the anawim is a great example of how God can not be real. If he was real then he wouldn't allow suffering in the world.

was this a response to me?

If you are not lazy and do not have a lack of reverence then why don't you go to church. Its one hour of your week. Apparently you would have to have a lack of respect if you can't go to church one hour out of every week.

Well when it came time to vote I had to watch this video on voting against stem cell research because my archbishop said the bishop wanted us to watch it. The fact is the church tells you how you should vote. They may not make you but they tell you this is how you should vote.

It was a sign for me to see if you actually believe in God. If you can't do it then I see that you don't believe in God. It is a simple task.

Again the church tells you what to believe. You don't have to listen because you have free will.The church tries to influence your decision making.

It was a response to jmdewey60

reply to post by jimmyjackblack

Disclaimer: I'm a theist but not of the Abrahamic faiths. I have minor biblical scholar and scriptural skills. Also I'm not a scientific,legal or medical expert in any field. Beware my Contagious Memes! All of this is my personal conjecture and should not be considered the absolute or most definitive state of things as they really are. Use this information at your own risk! I accept no liability if your ideology comes crashing down around you with accompanying consequences!

Explanation: jimmyjackblack you say about me and I quote "Originally posted by OmegaLogos

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things." (Isaiah 45:7, KJV)]

Too bad you didn't post the rest of this so we can see it in context (but that's not what you want is it?).So since you won't I will, plus I'll explain the meaning since it seems the close minded and the heart hardened might
understand, even though they won't for they choose not to.:"
-------------------------------------------------
1stly You have no idea what I want and I take this as a personal attack. Please refrain and attack my arguments and not me. Also you state I won't do something as opposed to having not done something and this is misleading and defames me and I ask that you kindly retract that statement.

2ndly thanks for the explanation for it raises some points I would love to debate. For example A) GODS The Editor in Chief of his Book and is responsible for its upkeep. He also owns copyright and this should ensure the veracity of its truth. so why would he let the word "rah/ra" be translated as "evil" (clearly a moral concept) instead of "natural disaster" and B) it isn't obvious at all in my opinion and could mean either or both. Next is C) if you look it talks about opposites (light and dark) and I suggest war is the opposite of peace and this again goes to his morality! And finally D) if it does refer to natural disasters do you think he is so moral after the most recent cyclone disaster in Burma/Myanmar or the earthquake in China with so many lives (especially children) lost! Also I don't believe you can divorce morality from nature! Care to refute.

Personal Disclosure: Again you jump the gun when you say and I quote you fully "Send me some more I'll explain them, you can either except what I am telling you or deny it, most likely you will deny it seeing how you have made up your mind and will not listen to the truth I tell you"...... Sure I will send you some more but I will let you respond to my comments 1st. And just because I don't readily accept your arguments and as yet I don't believe I am denying anything unreasonably, please don't tell me you are psycic and know for sure that I won't eventually accept what you have to say for I'm not so arrogant as to say I know it all and can't learn or change but I feel you need more watertight arguments before I do so. Also it would be nice if you answered the questions I asked in my 1st reply to you about the falsifiability of you theory of GOD! Care to even refute the CBM/WMAP evidence I provided?

Deny Ignorance 1st!
Become totally disillusioned and finally see everything for real. Think Globally, Act Locally and Feel Internally.

reply to post by whitesatan

Disclaimer: I'm a theist but not of the Abrahamic faiths. I have minor biblical scholar and scriptural skills. Also I'm not a scientific,legal or medical expert in any field. Beware my Contagious Memes! All of this is my personal conjecture and should not be considered the absolute or most definitive state of things as they really are. Use this information at your own risk! I accept no liability if your ideology comes crashing down around you with accompanying consequences!

Explanation: 1stly lets not quibble about the word tetra . I only mentioned it as it is the first part or the word Tetragrammaton which in etymology means "Four letters".(see here )

2ndly The website link you provided is about a Abrahamic GOD and let me qualify that I fully agree with you that this GOD does not exist for me either except as a bizarre fictional (for me only in this context) concept I know as the Demi-Urge referred to in Gnosticism which I suggest you suss out a bit. Anyway I will Go ahead and still try and Prove that a GOD "MAY" exist and also will try prove YHVH exists if and when I can.

Now to my arguments against the 1st "Proof"....the website says and I quote " Proof #1 try praying: What would happen if we get down on our knees and pray to God in this way:

Dear God, almighty, all-powerful, all-loving creator of the universe, we pray to you to cure every case of cancer on

this planet tonight. We pray in faith, knowing you will bless us as you describe in Matthew 7:7, Matthew 17:20, Matthew 21:21, Mark 11:24, John 14:12-14, Matthew 18:19 and James 5:15-16. In Jesus' name we pray, Amen.

We pray sincerely, knowing that when God answers this completely heartfelt, unselfish, non-materialistic prayer, it will glorify God and help millions of people in remarkable ways.

Will anything happen? No. Of course not".......

-----------------------------------------------

.....Well I beg to differ and suggest that prayer is something like a psychosomatic attempt to heal "the situation or more specifically oneself" and when it comes to the self, psychosomatic self hypnosis has been shown to medically reduce stress levels with accompanying medical benefits.(See here ). Now if the entire planet of humankind all perfectly self hypnotized ourselves at the same time with the stated prayer or some equivalent belief then maybe just maybe we could actually test the hypothesis that is asked by the GodisImaginary.com Website. Cancer might actually be cured! And even if it isn't we may still be a lot healthier for it! I suggest there is only one GOD and we are a part of it (Omnipresence) and so when we heal ourselves is not GOD answering all our prayers? (Omnipotence and Omniscience).

As to Jesus existence and whether he is a liar or not then I'm probably not the best one to defend him as I also doubt his existence! But thats not to say he didn't really exist, just that I personally can't prove it! (not even to myself yet).

I agree that we may get "little" from prayer but little is a long way from "nothing" !!! It maybe a placebo effect, but an effect is an effect and just can't be discounted! Use what you got otherwise you don't have anything!

Personal Disclosure: I can get on to proof no#2 if you are satisfide with my explanation or we can debate the points I raise in this post before we move on (I agree that if you agree to my POV on this point at hand that that doesn't PROVE GOD as I still have 49 other point to disprove!). Looking forward to your response my respected foe!

Deny Ignorance 1st!
Become totally disillusioned and finally see everything for real. Think Globally, Act Locally and Feel Internally.

Edited to fix 1st weblink.


[edit on 16-5-2008 by OmegaLogos]

reply to post by Locoman8

quite true, but as i was saying, before lucifer was satan he or she(dont want to sound sexist, it seams thats a hot button now) was in charge of the sun comming up

reply to post by whitesatan


I am finished replying to you about God's existence, I will however point out all the times you contradict yourself and misquote or misunderstand me or anyone else. Let's start with your comment back to me...


"Again the Earth was not destroyed. The world froze over explaining the real extinction of dinosaurs."

And I give you the explanation from wikepedia.com seeing that it's a very reliable resource on the internet:

"Cretaceous–Tertiary extinction event
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
(Redirected from Cretaceous-Tertiary extinction event)
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The Cretaceous–Tertiary extinction event was a large-scale mass extinction of animal and plant species in a geologically short period of time, approximately 65.5 million years ago (Ma). It is widely known as the K–T extinction event and is associated with a geological signature, usually a thin band dated to that time and found in various parts of the world, known as the K–T boundary. K is the traditional abbreviation for the Cretaceous Period derived from the German name Kreidezeit, and T is the abbreviation for the Tertiary Period (an historical term for the period of time now covered by the Paleogene and Neogene periods). The event marks the end of the Mesozoic Era and the beginning of the Cenozoic Era.[1] "Tertiary" is no longer recognized as a formal time or rock unit by the International Commission on Stratigraphy, the K-T event is now called the Cretaceous-Paleogene (or K-Pg) extinction event by many researchers.

Non-avian dinosaur fossils are only found below the K–T boundary and became extinct immediately before or during the event.[2] A very small number of dinosaur fossils have been found above the K–T boundary, but they have been explained as reworked, that is, fossils that have been eroded from their original locations then preserved in later sedimentary layers.[3][4][5] Mosasaurs, plesiosaurs, pterosaurs and many species of plants and invertebrates also became extinct. Mammalian and bird clades passed through the boundary with few extinctions, and evolutionary radiation from those Maastrichtian clades occurred well past the boundary. Rates of extinction and radiation varied across different clades of organisms.[6]

Scientists theorize that the K–T extinctions were caused by one or more catastrophic events such as massive asteroid impacts or increased volcanic activity. Several impact craters and massive volcanic activity in the Deccan traps have been dated to the approximate time of the extinction event. These geological events may have reduced sunlight and hindered photosynthesis, leading to a massive disruption in Earth's ecology. Other researchers believe the extinction was more gradual, resulting from slower changes in sea level or climate.[6]"

And mainly about the dinos:
Dinosaurs

More has been published about the extinction of dinosaurs at the K-T boundary than any other group of organisms. Excepting a few controversial claims, it is agreed that all non-avian dinosaurs went extinct at the K-T boundary. The dinosaur fossil record has been interpreted to show both a decline in diversity and no decline in diversity during the last few million years of the Cretaceous, and it may be that the quality of the dinosaur fossil record is simply not good enough to permit researchers to distinguish between the choices.[53] Since there is no evidence that late Maastrichtian nonavian dinosaurs could burrow, swim or dive, they were unable to shelter themselves from the worst parts of any environmental stress that occurred at the K-T boundary. It is possible that small dinosaurs (other than birds) did survive, but they would have been deprived of food as both herbivorous dinosaurs would have found plant material scarce, and carnivores would have shortly found prey in short supply.[35]

Several researchers have stated that there were Paleocene dinosaurs and therefore the extinction of dinosaurs was gradual. Their arguments were based on the discovery of dinosaur remains in the Hell Creek Formation up to 1.3 meters (4 ft) above and 40,000 years later than the K–T boundary.[3] Pollen samples recovered near a fossilized hadrosaur femur recovered in the Ojo Alamo Sandstone at the San Juan River indicate that the animal lived in Tertiary times, approximately 64.5 mya (about 1 million years after the K–T event). This would make hadrosaurids a Dead Clade Walking.[4] Scientific consensus contends that these apparent "Paleocene dinosaurs" are "re-worked", that is, the fossils were eroded from their original locations and then re-buried in much later sediments."


So you see, your accusation that dinosaurs were killed off by a frozen earth is completely false and made up.



"If Satan really did destroy the world then why hasn't he done it again. He has the power.
Wow i twisted my words because I said blow up not destroyed. Well they have same basic meanings. If you throw a grenade what does it do. It blows up killing anything near it. So blow up refers to an object that killed everything. Man you are as dumb as a box of rocks."

Satan's battle with God took place while he was still known as Lucifer. He had powers to kill and destroy, similar to God's awesome power. After the battle was over, God cast Lucifer to earth where he was bound and only had the power to manipulate and persuade... this is why Satan doesn't do it again. He is trying to get Man to destroy earth by war and nuclear weapons, pollution, etc. Blowing something up is a way of destroying, yet destroying can mean a number of things. If you are murdered, your life has been destroyed... not blown up! Geeze, what a tool!!!


[edit on 5/16/2008 by Locoman8]

"The Big Bang doesn't disprove God's existence"

"Lieing huh... I don't believe the quot about the big bang is a lie. If you think so then you obviously agree with me. You would then be saying that it does disprove Gods existence. Wow thanks for clerifying my point once again."


Do you even understand what that quote is saying? I posted only part of your quote because it reads as though you are contradicting yourself and then you post back as if this snippet helps your case. Read it: "The Big Bang doesn't disprove God's existence." It basically is saying that the big bang doesn't prove that God is fake. If that's the case, you have just handed yourself your own ass. I'll let you scratch your head about that one.

"On a side note, someone mentioned the name "Lucifer" was not evil. Indeed you are right because Lucifer was Satan's name while he was still an angel. Fallen angels are demons and Lucifer's demon name is Satan. Either way, we are talking about the same evil spirit."

"Really when did I say this. Show me I would really like to know. You my friend are have no sense of the truth. Well why should you I can see that you don't deserve it at this point because you are to stubborn to learn the real truth."

That was intended for another person so don't get all defensive about it. It even mentions at the beginning "On a side note, SOMEONE mentioned the name......." That comment was not directed to you at all so quit acting like I put words in your mouth. I have a suggestion... go back to mom and dad's and demand they knock some sense into you for the sake of society.

I also was reading your spill on your so-called proofs and I tell you this... Mormon is a christian faith that believes in God and Jesus too. The Muslim/Islamic faith shares the same God that Christians do. Allah is the arabic word for God. Our differences come when mentioning the messiah. I also sense the author of the site and yourself have misleading views as to the role of Jesus. Man rules the earth for 6,000 years. Jesus comes back after the tribulation for the 1,000 years of peace on earth. No man or woman enters heaven or hell. The only man to enter heaven is Jesus and the only ones to be cast in a lake of fire is Satan and his fallen angels/demons. Even you, who denies God will have the chance to repent when Judgement comes. If you don't repent you simply stay dead forever.... but I guess that's what you're looking forward to anyways. Jesus comes back and his return is very soon as he will be ruler of earth. Prayer is a one on one with you and God. You can't ask God to cure cancer for someone who doesn't give a flip. The reason why science can't prove God is because science has no faith in it's studies. Christian science proves events in the bible day by day... even the existence of Jesus. Those who believe Jesus and God are the same person have a false idea of the role Jesus plays in human history. The trinity is a false doctrine that catholics adopted from paganism. Christmas is pagan, easter is pagan, and sunday worship is pagan. God's 7 holy day feasts are authentic and true and the sabbath is saturday, not sunday. Roman catholics have embedded pagan beliefs into christianity for centuries which is why they try to control the congregation by telling you to vote a certain way. Church doctrine is not authentic as the bible is authentic.

My whole point to you is, believe what you want but don't come here and try to make a fact that God doesn't exist because it is a false remark. God has not been proven or disproven... just like your sorry-ass big bang theory... it is open to suggestion but not fact because fact has not been established. Your so-called facts are only factual if you read OUT OF CONTEXT and misunderstand what is really being said in those bible verses. So do us all a favor and just say "My name is whitesatan and in my OPINION, God is fake." I would respect that remark and tell you that I admire your humble opinion.
In my heart and my opinion, God is real. I am not telling you he is real to you, but he's real to me. I also want to apologize for any name-calling or rude behavior, but just know that I am passionate about my faith. I have no problem with you believeing God is fake... I just have a problem with you calling that remark "Fact".

There you go, I bring a compromise to the table and issue out the first civil apology. If this statement doesn't pan well with you and you continue to bash me and falsifying info, so be it but be prepared.

OmegaLogos

I agree with what you said. God can not be proven to exist or to be imaginary at this point. I am just looking at the situation from the pov of someone who feels he has been lied to by the church. I think it will be very hard to prove gods existence since their is so much dispute over the topic. We will probably never know. I am still going to believe their is no God until it is proven their is a God. I just think that if their is no proof of his existence at this point in time. Then their won't be any proof because we get further and further from this time period and it gets harder and harder to know what happened.

I think we should just agree to disagree on this topic at this time because it is going no where at his point. This is for everyone not just omegalogos. I think we should all just agree to disagree.