The truth behind "THE RAPTURE"

reply to post by SirPaulMuaddib


SirPaul,
After some fairly extensive study, I am (currently) concluding that the "elect" is Israel (those of the 12 tribes).

I have found some Old Testament prophecies (of the children of Israel) that are remarkably similar to the "gathering" described in Matt 24:31

(As a quick side note, I want to state again that I don't think 'any of us'...including me... has a perfect picture of eschatology. I believe God made it confusing on purpose. I am offering what I believe to be a 'better' explanation, not 'perfect', but only 'better'.)

Since our whole topic here 'revolves around' this one particular verse, I think it good that it be quoted again:

Matt 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

There is a parallel verse in Mark 13:27, which I won't quote here, but I want to acknowledge that it says pretty much the same thing.

The event described in Matt 24:31 takes place AFTER the tribulation and AFTER the return of Jesus Christ to earth. (On this, I think we both agree?)

It is also my contention that the "tribulation week" is PRIMARILY a week of dealing with (punishment of) Israel (the racial descendants of the 12 tribes of Israel).

Daniel 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

It is also my contention that the Great tribulation ALSO involves the rest of the world, but this is "Secondary"...or 'incidental' for lack of a better term. The primary purpose is/was first for Israel...but the world is involved ALSO.

As an example of this, Mark 13:18 cannot be a prophecy/warning to the whole world. It is meant completely as a warning to Israel. If it was meant as a warning to the whole world, we end up having the Southern hemisphere praying against the Northern, and vice-versa. (As well as different 'time-zones, if we are to look at Matt 24:20...)

And again (prior), in verse 14, this warning is ONLY to those in Judaea, not to the rest of the world.

Going over to the parallel passage in Matt 24, we see, again, a warning given to Israel, and Israel ONLY:

Matt 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
and
Matt 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

Now...

...onto the Old Testament prophecies:

Isa 27:12-13 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall beat off from the channel of the river unto the stream of Egypt, and ye shall be gathered one by one, O ye children of Israel.
13 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the great trumpet shall be blown, and they shall come which were ready to perish in the land of Assyria, and the outcasts in the land of Egypt, and shall worship the LORD in the holy mount at Jerusalem.

and

Isa 18:3 All ye inhabitants of the world, and dwellers on the earth, see ye, when he lifteth up an ensign on the mountains; and when he bloweth a trumpet, hear ye.
(The rest of the short chapter of Isaiah 18 seems to talk about the battle of Armageddon?)

and

Zech 9:14 And the LORD shall be seen over them, and his arrow shall go forth as the lightning: and the Lord GOD shall blow the trumpet, and shall go with whirlwinds of the south.
(again, there is a description of the battle of Armageddon going on here.)

and

Zech 2:6 Ho, ho, come forth, and flee from the land of the north, saith the LORD: for I have spread you abroad as the four winds of the heaven, saith the LORD.

(continued below)

Since the current map of Israel (circa 2008) is much smaller than the land promised Abraham:

Gen 15:18-21 In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:

19 The Kenites, and the Kenizzites, and the Kadmonites,

20 And the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Rephaims,

21 And the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Girga#es, and the Jebusites.

...this seems to be a prophecy that is unfulfilled. God promised that land to Abraham's seed.

Sometime in the (hopefully NEAR) future, God is going to fulfill that promise. "Israel is going to possess that land".

The Apostles were still concerned with that land in Acts 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

This has never happened...YET.

My further proof that the "elect" in Matt 24:31 (and parallel passages) IS (only) Israel.... concerns the fact that Israel (so far) is "still looking for Messiah to return". They didn't believe that Jesus was the Messiah.

Matt 24:23-24 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

By now, I realize I've "written myself into a corner" and I have to realize that the "elect" in verse 24 is NOT the Saints, but Israel looking for Messiah.

IF what I have described above is true, then the Church has no worry about 'being deceived', for the Church isn't the 'elect' in this passage of Scripture.

Something else to consider is that Revelation talks about "sealing the 144,000". These are ONLY of the tribes of Israel.

And to "head-off" any 'replacement theology' or even worse, the "10-lost-tribes theology", I reject it outright. God promised Israel (certain) LAND.

Jesus promised that the "meek shall inherit the EARTH". This is another distinction between Israel and the Church.

Israel was only promised certain land.
The "meek" inherit the earth.

I also share this:

John 14:2-3
In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

(Summation below)

To sum up my point:
The "gathering" in Matt 24:31 (and parallel verses in other Gospels) is not any type of "rapture", it is merely "gathering"...it is bringing them (ALL of Israel) to the same place. There is no mention of a 'resurrection' in this verse, or the parallel verses. Clearly the Angels are making it VERY easy for them to return to Israel, by performing miracles, but these 'elect' are Israel, and not the Saints.

Isaiah 11:10-16 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.

11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.

12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.

13 The envy also of Ephraim shall depart, and the adversaries of Judah shall be cut off: Ephraim shall not envy Judah, and Judah shall not vex Ephraim.

14 But they shall fly upon the shoulders of the Philistines toward the west; they shall spoil them of the east together: they shall lay their hand upon Edom and Moab; and the children of Ammon shall obey them.

15 And the LORD shall utterly destroy the tongue of the Egyptian sea; and with his mighty wind shall he shake his hand over the river, and shall smite it in the seven streams, and make men go over dryshod.

16 And there shall be an highway for the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria; like as it was to Israel in the day that he came up out of the land of Egypt.

reply to post by SirPaulMuaddib

Out of this group of four. The only one fully protected from the "hour of temptation" are the Philadelphians.

The people of this Church don't go into the hour of temptation. They don't even make it TO the hour of temptation...IE: They go to sleep.

Yes, I agree, that the 12 tribes of Israel will be punished and these will be gathered from the nations back into the land of Israel, to receive the promised inheritance.

In other words, they (12 tribes of Israel) will be gathered ALSO.

One is brought back to Israel over land(the physical descendents of the 12 tribes of Israel), and one is gathered from the 4 corners of the earth over the air (the elect who rise to meet the Lord)

(more to say later)

[edit on 27-5-2008 by SirPaulMuaddib_2]

Just a little feedback on what you said

Locoman8?

I believe I've heard you describe some of the disappointment you had had with some of the churches you had attended in the past?

ME TOO!

I couldn't quite "put my finger on it", but I just 'knew' something wasn't right. The sermons weren't teaching what Jesus said.

You had mentioned something about "Catholicism" vs. "Baptist" (or something like that? I don't want to put words into your mouth)

I said I use to be baptist which is a splinter group of the catholics.

The CoG teaches things that are NOT orthodox Christianity. The "Catholic church" is actually quite orthodox in it's teaching. It is all the 'extra stuff' (that I call leaven, that needs to be rejected.)

What is orthodox in your opinion? A church of ruling bodies? That's what the orthodox catholics are. The priest is the highest authority in the congregation. Pope is the highest authority of all catholics. This is completely against what the bible says.

Matt. 23:5-12
5: But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylactries, and enlarge the borders of their garments,
6: And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues,
7: And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi.
8: But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.
9: And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
10: Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even christ.
11:But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.
12: And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.

Is it me or is the catholic preists called "father" ? And isn't Pope or pontiff a human representation of Christ? Pope is also known as the Master of the catholic church.

One can 'get saved' in a Catholic church...or a Baptist church...or in MANY churches (that preach Jesus (THE) Christ).

This is true. I was saved at a baptist church. As long as your heart is with God and you let the spirit save you, it doesn't matter where you're saved. Even at home... but to confess sins to a priest is against all that is christian.

The CoG adds a LOT of stuff that we aren't to worry about. We are to reject it and even call it 'another gospel'.

What stuff does CoG add? Explain this one to me. They keep the laws of God. They keep the 7 holy feasts (with the new covenant meanings) and they strictly adhere to the bible. Adding stuff is what the catholics and protestants did. They added pagan celebrations of christmas, easter, and sunday worship and ridded themselves of the holy day feasts, and sabbath worship. They changed God's laws around to suit them. CoG keeps these things. The apostles and christ kept these days and these laws of God. Catholics changed the 10 commandments so Idol worship wouldn't be on there and divided 1 commandment into 2 to keep the commandments 10. CoG has not added addtional doctrine to their teachings.

ALL YOU NEED is the Bible.

I couldn't agree more. That's what CoG teaches from and not from man-made doctrines.

The Holy Spirit doesn't come to "reveal new truths", the Holy Spirit reminds you about what you already know the Bible teaches and are lying against

What are you talking about here? CoG doesn't teach this... at least not the United Church of God. You have to be careful what Church of God congregation you refer to because many have taken the name but only about 4 have kept the original apostlic doctrines of the early church. A list is here:
1: United Church of God (an international association)
2: Living Church of God
3: Philidelphia Church of God
4: Church of the Great God
5: Church of God (in preparation of the kingdom of God)... which is a false teaching church thanks to Ronald Weinlands leadership.

United Chruch of God is the largest of the apostolic CoG groups and is the only one that strictly keeps the original doctrines of the early church.

In another thread (perhaps this one) you mentioned that 'junkies' or 'murderers' are sinning against the temple of God (our body).

This is false. (not true)

The context of this is 'sexual sin'.

1 Cor 6:18 Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without (not against) the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.

"fornication" is a sin against the body of Christ. "Murder" or "junkies" are not.

I simply mentioned this as an example to rebuke a certain comment that made no sense. It wasn't intended to be true. It was an example of what someone claimed to be true and that this statement would be true then. Of coure a junkie or murderer can ask for forgiveness and receive it thanks to the sacrifice of Christ.


[edit on 5/28/2008 by Locoman8]

[edit on 5/28/2008 by Locoman8]

[edit on 5/28/2008 by Locoman8]

reply to post by Locoman8

What stuff does CoG add? Explain this one to me. They keep the laws of God. They keep the 7 holy feasts (with the new covenant meanings) and they strictly adhere to the bible.

The Apostles spoke to the gentiles:

Acts 15:24-29 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:

25 It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,

26 Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.

27 We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth.

28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;

29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.


There is nothing about keeping feasts in this charge.

reply to post by PreTribGuy


You always quote that passage as evidence of Jesus eliminating the old testament ways. Circumcision was considered a sacrificial offering and all sacrificial offerings were done away with because of Jesus' sacrifice for us. I've said this before. That passage may not mention the holy day feasts yet Paul and the other apostles celebrated them in the NT.

Passover... Matthew 26:2, 17-19; Mark 14:12-16; Luke 2:41-42; 22:1, 7-20; John 2:13, 23; 6:4; 13:1-30; 1 Corinthians 11:23-29.

Feast of Unleavened Bread.... Matthew 26:17; Mark 14:12; Luke 2:41-42; 22:1, 7; Acts 20:6; 1 Corinthians 5:6-8.

Feast of Pentecost.... Acts 2:1-21; 20:16; 1 Corinthians 16:8

Feast of Trumpets.... Matthew 24:30-31; 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17; Revelation 11:15 (theme of trumpets sounding)

Day of Atonement (fasting).... Acts 27:9

Feast of Tabernacles.... John 7:1-2, 8, 10, 14; Acts 18:21

Last Great Day... John Chapters 7-9


These chapters in the New Testament show where Jesus and/or the Apostles celebrated the feasts. If He was to do away with them, why did He celebrate them? Paul was speaking to gentiles in your passage and mentioning to them about what might be said amongst their brethren who celebrated pagan holidays and pagan sacrifices. Paul was simply telling the gentiles of the church not to worry about the religious laws they were once bound by in the pagan world. These gentiles knew not of the Jewish holy days and were simply taught the Gospel's message. The entire message of God is hard to get out to someone who didn't know about these customs when taught such a different way throughout life. It is a gradual change to go from one set of holiday customs to a set of holy day customs as I'm still in a transition stage of this.

Paul was simply telling the gentiles of the church not to worry about the religious laws they were once bound by in the pagan world. These gentiles knew not of the Jewish holy days and were simply taught the Gospel's message

Yes, the pagans had scores and scores of holidays (holy days). Pagan holy days were not binding. God's holy days are.



OK....I haven't posted in this thread in a while, and wanted to get into those who survive, and those that don't survive through the tribulation.

It's interesting in your (PreTribGuy) bible study, you uncovered this gem about how the 12 tribes will be gathered.

Yes, there are many OT prophecies regarding this. The angels will fish for men and women, who will be enslaved for the 1st two and one half years of the tribulation, and they will start to gather them and bring them to Jerusalem.

But I want to focus not on the physical latter day descendents of the 12 tribes, but on the Church.

Let's look at what Revelation says.....

It seems that there will be 4 church "eras" that exist just before the time of Christ's return.

These eras are Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia and Laodicea


Thyatiran's appear to be "descendents" of the Waldenesians, Sardis appear to be latter day remnants of 7th day Church of God Sabbath keepers, that were around at the turn of the century (early 1900's).

It appears that some, out of these 2 remnants, survive up to Christ's return.

Philadelphians are Sabbath keepers, and keep the 7 annual Holy Day festivals.

Laodiceans are those that "sprang out of" Phildelphia, who are lukewarm, they have not become totally apostate,but have lost a major part of their first love.

Of the latter 2 groups, only Philadelphia is promised protection...

Rev 3:7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write: He who is holy, He who is true, He who has the key of David, He who opens and no one shuts; and shuts and no one opens, says these things:

Rev 3:10 Because you have kept the Word of My patience, I also will keep you from the hour of temptation which will come upon all the habitable world, to try those who dwell upon the earth.

Rev 3:11 Behold, I come quickly.

Laodicea on the other hand, is given a strong rebuke for her lukewarmness.



Now let's look at the prophetic and historical overview of church history.....



Revelation 12 contains a historical overview of the churches history, as well as prophecy for the final 3 1/2 years before Christ's return.



It starts out with the birth of the Messiah, and his ascension to heaven to receive his throne.

Rev 12:5 And she bore a son, a male, who is going to rule all nations with a rod of iron. And her child was caught up to God and to His throne

And proceeds to when Satan is cast out of heaven (for the final time), and how he persecutes the woman (the church) .

Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and those tabernacling in them. Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and in the sea! For the Devil came down to you, having great wrath, knowing that he has BUT A LITTLE TIME.

Rev 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast to the earth, he persecuted the woman who bore the man child .

Satan is enraged, and goes after the woman (the church), BUT this church was promised protection from the "hour of trial".
[continued]



[edit on 8-6-2008 by SirPaulMuaddib]

She is led into the wilderness, where she will be supernaturally protected for the final 3 1/2 years. This group doesn't escape ANY persecution (Rev. 12:13), but they do escape the GREAT TRIBULATION, those that go through the Great Tribulation will be martyred.

Rev 12:14 And two wings of a great eagle were given to the woman, so that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time (3 1/2 years), from the serpent's face.

Rev 12:15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water like a flood after the woman, so that he might cause her to be carried away by the river.

Rev 12:16 And the earth helped the woman. And the earth opened its mouth and swallowed up the river which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

Rev 12:17 And the dragon was enraged over the woman, and went to make war with the rest of her seed, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

So "the woman" is protected for 3 1/2 years in "her place". But not all make it, since Satan makes war against "the rest of her seed", that is her children, in other words the lukewarm Christian of the Laodicean age. Satan pursues them, and makes war against them and martyrs them.

Now the church that goes into "her place", that is the Place of Safety, they will interact SOMEHOW with he Two Witnesses. How much, no one knows.

The Two Witnesses will probably go back and forth into and out of the Place of Safety (I don't think they will do this a lot), and report to "the woman", and get encouragement from the church before going "back into the field", to do their work.



Now Matt 25 discusses what will happen to the Laodiceans, it seems that half of them will be martyred, and the other half will recant and lose out on salvation.

Mat 25:1 Then shall the kingdom of Heaven be likened to ten virgins, who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom.

Mat 25:2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.

Mat 25:3 The foolish ones took their lamps, but took no oil with them.

Mat 25:4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.

Mat 25:5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.

Mat 25:6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom comes! Go out to meet him.

Mat 25:7 Then all those virgins arose and trimmed their lamps.

Mat 25:8 And the foolish said to the wise, Give us some of your oil, for our lamps have gone out.

Mat 25:9 But the wise answered, saying, No, lest there be not enough for us and you. But rather go to those who sell, and buy for yourselves.

Mat 25:10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came. And they who were ready went in with him to the marriage, and the door was shut.

Mat 25:11 Afterwards the other virgins came also, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.

Mat 25:12 But he answered and said, Truly I say to you, I do not know you.

Mat 25:13 Therefore watch, for you do not know either the day or the hour in which the Son of Man comes.

There will be 10 virgins, ALL 10 FALL ASLEEP. Out of the 10, 5 "awaken" in the tribulation and will get martyred, and the other 5 will be too lukewarm and don't repent in time (if at all), and it will be too late for them. At this point "the door is shut".



The Philadelphian remnant however, will have gone to the place of safety, the "10 virgins" are the "rest of her seed" that decide not to go (they don't think the time is right), and Satan pursues them, because he can't touch the Philadelphians who will be supernaturally protected.

reply to post by SirPaulMuaddib


SirPaul,
I haven't studied up on the "woman" of Rev 12. So what I offer here are more questions than answers.

I cannot find any clear indication that the woman spoke of in Rev 12 is "the Church". Furthermore, Rev 13:7 says:
And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

It does not mention a "woman", but "the saints", and there is no mention of "some" of the saints...but power was given (granted BY GOD) to make war and OVERCOME THEM.

To have the woman of Rev 12 be "the Church" is to imply that the Church gave birth to Jesus...and that doesn't fit any Orthodoxy.

But, to be honest...I don't know "who" or "what" this woman is. I just haven't studied it.

I also can't find any indication that any Saint of the Church makes it out of the tribulation alive.

While I agree that the 7 Churches mentioned in Rev 1-3 are somewhat chronological in order...of the "prevalent" (or current) Church, I disagree with the association's you've given.

Nonetheless, I am able to AGREE that the "church-age" ends with the Laodician age.

AND...noting this...I'm beginning to be more inclined that Rev 3:20 is a "disguised Rapture verse".

It would be interesting to go through all seven churches and discuss what was promised "to him that overcometh" and what it means and if there is any relevance to today?

reply to post by PreTribGuy


Revelation speaks of 2 women. One speaks of the Church of God and the other is the Harlot Woman or Catholic Church. These were the first two church bodies at the time of the apostles allthough the Church of God was the first. CoG remained small and insignificant throughout the years while the catholic church grew in size to become the largest of all christian faiths. Catholic splinter groups are all part of this as well. This is satan's war against the church. He has blinded most people throughout the history of the church to create confusion and make us think it's alright to bend God's rules every now and then.

woman = church

The woman that gave birth

Rev 12:5 And she bore a son, a male, who is going to rule all nations with a rod of iron. And her child was caught up to God and to His throne

As you infer, since the NT church did not exist at this time...who is this woman?

Note...the woman is..."arrayed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars,"

Notice Joseph's identification of the sun/moon/stars....

Genesis 37 (King James Version)

9 And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me.

10 And he told it to his father, and to his brethren: and his father rebuked him, and said unto him, What is this dream that thou hast dreamed? Shall I and thy mother and thy brethren indeed come to bow down ourselves to thee to the earth?

The sun is Jacob
The moon is Rachel
The 12 stars are the sons of Jacob (Joseph's dream had 11 but he is the 12th star)

Simply put, the woman who "bore a son" is the nation of Israel

Here is the proof text, showing that the nation of Israel was also considered a church.

Acts 7:38
This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:

Now, out of this OT church, came the NT church...spiritual Israel.

Spiritual Israel = woman = NT church.

This is the "woman" who later is persecuted, and is taken to "her place" for protection, her "children" are Christians. The "rest of her seed" are "children" (Rev 12:17) who don't make it to the Place of Safety, these are the ones that are martyred.



[edit on 11-6-2008 by SirPaulMuaddib_2]

reply to post by SirPaulMuaddib_2


Great post sirpaul. Many people fail to realize the significance of Joseph in the old testament. Joseph ruled over his 11 brothers in Egypt because of the way his brothers treated him. Jacob blessed Joseph and his two sons Manasseh and Ephraim. These two tribes made up the tribe of Joseph. These two tribes were lost with the rest of the lost ten northern tribes of Israel. Manasseh is the United States and Ephraim is Great Britain. Read the blessings that Jacob gives to Joseph's sons in Chapter 48 of Genesis. Read the blessings to Joseph in Chapter 49 verses 22-26.

reply to post by Locoman8

Manasseh is the United States and Ephraim is Great Britain.

This is called "British-Israelism"

British Israelism

A 'theory' (at best).

But there is a 'grafting' here in Romans 11:

Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

The Gentiles are grafted in.

reply to post by PreTribGuy


That's not British-Israelism or whatever you call it. There is extensive historical research that identifies the lost 10 tribes. I plan on posting a new thread about it soon with all the juicy details here on this message board so keep your eyes peeled for "United States and Great Britain in Bible Prophecy."

reply to post by Locoman8

I believe you because I used to believe in pre-trib rapture but kept having these dreams that it was afterwards... I kept dreaming that even those that served God had to suffer the great tribulation and that those who were faithful in Christ had to stand firm in obedience. I dreamt in one dream, though I was one of the faithful servants of Christ, I had to go into captivity with the rest of the world into the hands of the Adversary because the Annointed one was cut off from the earth. The Holy Spirit was absent from the world for a time and then, in another dream, I dreamt that He finally returned and I disappeared from the Adversary's prisoner and found myself fighting the end war with Christ. After the Adversary was defeated, I found myself loading a world full of people onto a giant bus. I told two men who were with me to seal up the bus and I followed the bus from behind in my own car and the bus flew up into the sky. So, after these dreams contradicted what I believed, I decided to re-study instead of just going by what I heard from preachers of today. I found that the rapture indeed comes after the Tribulation, not before. For, even Christ said, 'He will even try to decieve the elect, if that were possible...' if the rapture was to happen before, then Christ would've never made a statement like that. But because even the believers have to endure it as well as the faithless and the good men as well as the wicked, I believed that's why I dreamt I saw that even good men were forced to either serve the Adversary or be his captive. It was strange dreams but I'm grateful to God that He corrected what other's preached and revealed the Truth. I thank God for you for helping to confirm His message that I've been recieving for over four years.
Jleeai115

reply to post by Anonymous ATS


You are most welcome and I thank you for such a great faith-filled story. If this intrigues you, you should read some of my other threads. They are quite different from traditional christianity which is plagued in satan's deception in my opinion. You should check them out.

a reply to: Locoman8

This has been a very interesting thread. I know this is ten years after the last post. I never thought about going through satans wrath. Always though of the tribulation as going through Gods wrath because of the six seals.

a reply to: Mystery_Lady
The "tribulation" of the church is the church's experience of persecution. In Revelation, the persecution is being promoted by Satan, because Satan is the great "accuser"- he's not being allowed to accuse Christians to God any more, so he accuses them to the authorities instead.
The six seals and other disasters of Revelation are God's way of striking back at the persecuting world, breaking its power before he re-imposes his own authority in the last two chapters.
(I have a whole series of Revelation threads covering this ground).