The truth behind "THE RAPTURE"

reply to post by Icarus Rising

I believe those who are truly saved are the elect via predestination, and that would include saved Messianic Jews.

"Messianic Jews"? I don't really "understand" that classification. There is no need (that I can find, Biblically) to separate the Church into two different bodies/groups. How about this verse:

1 Cor 1:13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

Also check out 1 Cor 12:12-13 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Now as for the Saints, which are the Body of Christ, they were all predestined. Yes, I agree on that because the Bible teaches it.

Are all Jews "elect"? I don't think so.

Rev 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

and almost all of Romans 11 makes this point. (I won't quote Romans 11 here...it is a full chapter. A good one.)

It goes without saying that the phrase "rapture" does not occur in the NT.
I only mention it, because it can be important when addressing issues related to it.

The general definition for it comes from

1 Thessalonians 4:13-17: "But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."


Let's take note of certain things....
This event includes
(1) Lord descending from heaven with a shout
(2) Voice of arch angel
(3) Trumpet of God
(4) Dead + Living rising to meet Lord.


For the sake of shorthanding it, we'll use "the Rapture" to refer to this. (again, the word/phrase is not in the NT, this point shall be addressed in later post)

When does the Rapture occur? Where does it occur in the sequence of Seals and Trumpets?
Notice what it says in Mark.....

Mark 4:11
And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:

The MYSTERY of the Kingdom of God. To the world, IT IS A MYSTERY. They do not understand it. But to the Church, the Church is given TO KNOW the mystery. To the Church the mystery is of the KINGDOM of God, is revealed! It is to know! And will understand it.





Now let's understand, what the bible describes regarding the Rapture, and WHEN it occurs...notice the other key scripture regarding the Rapture in Matthew....

Matthew 24 (King James Version)
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven(1) with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet(3), and they shall gather together his elect(4) from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Ah...sounds familiar? This is another rapture "verse". This is like the interlocking of a puzzle! Let's start putting the puzzle pieces together.

Here we have three of the signs/events

We have "Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven"

And "great sound of a trumpet" (and from Thess. This trumpet is linked with the raising of the dead, WHICH TRUMPET IS THIS?)

These are (1), (3) and (4) from the points for 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17

These events initiate the Rapture event. The Lord descends from heaven, the trumpet is blown, the elect are gathered! (Matt. 24:30-31 above)

So in Thess. We have the "Christ descending from heaven"--> "trump of God" -->"dead in Christ rise "

In Matt 24:30-31: We have "Son of man in heaven(descending)"--> "great sound of a trumpet"-->"gathering of His elect" (which of course includes the dead)





Notice! What it says in Revelation! WHEN is the Mystery of God FINISHED? This Mystery of the Kingdom of God, This Mystery which is GIVEN TO THE CHURCH TO UNDERSTAND. When does it occur?

[CONTINUED IN NEXT POST]




[edit on 24-5-2008 by SirPaulMuaddib]

[edit on 24-5-2008 by SirPaulMuaddib]

Revelation 10 (King James Version)
6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:

7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel(2), when he shall begin to sound(3), the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

The Church should know! And here it is...The mystery is "accomplished"..."finished" AT THE SEVENTH AND LAST TRUMPET.

BECAUSE IT IS FULFILLED at the 7th Trumpet, it no longer is a mystery. It will be REALITY.

But just WHAT EXACTLY occurs at the 7th Trumpet? This is THE LAST TRUMPET. What occurs?

The 7th Trumpet, is the last trumpet of the seven trumpets that compose the FINAL 7th SEAL.




Here is what happens at the 7TH TRUMPET SOUNDING.

Revelation 11 (King James Version)

15 And the seventh angel sounded (the trumpet)(3); and there were great voices(2) in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,

17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O LORD God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power(1)(Matt 24:30), and hast reigned.

18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead (4), that they SHOULD BE(IMMEDIATE FUTURE) judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints (4), and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Notice what happens.

The kingdoms of the world are now "acquired" and become the kingdoms(plural) of God..(it is NOT the Kingdom of God, it becomes subject to the Kingdom of God, it will be ruled over by the Kingdom of God.)

Here is the key verse....

AT THE 7th TRUMPET : the DEAD ARE JUDGED. The only dead judged at the outset of the millennium ARE CHRISTIANS.

This is the First Resurecction...This is the timing of the RAPTURE, the DEAD ARE REWARDED here.

It is the "time of the dead" (Rev 11:18 above), that thou (Christ) SHOULD (at this time, not 3 1/2 years before) REWARD THE PROPHETS and SAINTS.



Now, I said, that the 7th TRUMPET(7th trumpet of the 7 trumpets of the 7th Seal) = LAST TRUMPET

But did not prove it. Here is the proof.

1 Corinthians 15:51-53 (King James Version)
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump(3): for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised(4) incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

The 7th Trumpet of Rev 11:18 = time of the dead, time for the REWARD for the dead, the reward of the prophets and saints,

Christians (the resurrected dead) and the living (saints that are alive at that time) ARE REWARDED AT THIS TIME.

1 Corinthians 15:51-53 is another description of the RAPTURE. (along with 1 Thess. 4, and Matthew 24)

Notice WHICH TRUMPET this occurs on...this occurs AT THE LAST TRUMPET.

We must conclude that both the 7th trumpet of Rev 11:18 (LAST trumpet of the 7 trumpets from the 7th Seal) AND the last trumpet from 1 Corinthians 15:52, ARE ONE AND THE SAME TRUMPET.

Because both describe the exact same event occurring, at this time!
[CONTINUED IN NEXT POST]

[edit on 24-5-2008 by SirPaulMuaddib]

All these verse match perfectly with the 1 Thess. 4:13-17 template.

1) Lord descending from heaven with a shout

2) Voice of arch angel

3) Trumpet of God

4) Dead + Living rising to meet Lord.


AH...but we have now a quandary!

Those that are worthy ESCAPE THE 3 1/2 YEARS OF TRIBULATION.

:-)



To be continued......

reply to post by SirPaulMuaddib


I just love your insight on things. It's all stuff I know but you lay it out there and write it in crayon for the hard-headed people. That was one of the things I wanted to discuss also.... the sounding of the last trumpet. Good post. Star for you.

reply to post by SirPaulMuaddib

It goes without saying that the phrase "rapture" does not occur in the NT.

Sigh....

Yes, I know that. Shall we use the word, "harpazo" so that EVERYONE knows what we are talking about?

This silly argument that "the word 'rapture' isn't in the NT (or the Bible)" is a straw man argument.

I admit it: The word IS NOT THERE. Ok? The English translation is "caught up", Greek is "Harpazo". I am fully aware of this....but not everyone is.

"Rapture" is a word we use to describe this event. People understand that word, it is no "sin" to use a word that EVERYONE UNDERSTANDS.

reply to post by SirPaulMuaddib


Details are important in eschatology:

1. 1 Thess 4:13-17 starts with a SHOUT, not a trumpet.

2. 1 Thess 4:13-17 talks about a "trump", there is no "order" (last or otherwise) described in this particular context.

3. Matt 24:30 uses the word "they" (not "us" or "ye"), IOW: "they" is EXCLUSIVE of "ye". (Did Jesus ever describe a "they" to mean the Saints?)

4. Matt 24:31 again, makes no mention of a "last" trump. Was this a mistake by Jesus?

5. Matt 24:31 mentions no "shout". (1 Thess 4:13-17)

6. We still haven't 'solved' the "elect" issue.

Who are the "elect"?

I suppose I can agree that 'some' of the 'elect' are those who are killed during the tribulation?

Not sure, though.

I think this is true:
No Saint survives the tribulation. Not one.

This silly argument that "the word 'rapture' isn't in the NT (or the Bible)" is a straw man argument.

You did note that I still used it right?

reply to post by SirPaulMuaddib

Yes, and I thank you.

You had "mentioned" that you were going to deal with this in a latter post, so I wanted to either give you "breathing room" or "head off a non-argument".

:>)

reply to post by Locoman8

Locoman8?

I believe I've heard you describe some of the disappointment you had had with some of the churches you had attended in the past?

ME TOO!

I couldn't quite "put my finger on it", but I just 'knew' something wasn't right. The sermons weren't teaching what Jesus said.

You had mentioned something about "Catholicism" vs. "Baptist" (or something like that? I don't want to put words into your mouth)

The CoG teaches things that are NOT orthodox Christianity. The "Catholic church" is actually quite orthodox in it's teaching. It is all the 'extra stuff' (that I call leaven, that needs to be rejected.)

One can 'get saved' in a Catholic church...or a Baptist church...or in MANY churches (that preach Jesus (THE) Christ).

The CoG adds a LOT of stuff that we aren't to worry about. We are to reject it and even call it 'another gospel'.

ALL YOU NEED is the Bible.

The Holy Spirit doesn't come to "reveal new truths", the Holy Spirit reminds you about what you already know the Bible teaches and are lying against

In another thread (perhaps this one) you mentioned that 'junkies' or 'murderers' are sinning against the temple of God (our body).

This is false. (not true)

The context of this is 'sexual sin'.

1 Cor 6:18 Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without (not against) the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.

"fornication" is a sin against the body of Christ. "Murder" or "junkies" are not.




[edit on 25-5-2008 by PreTribGuy]

1 Thessalonians 4:13-17: "But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

1. 1 Thess 4:13-17 starts with a SHOUT, not a trumpet.

I didn't specify ordering, whether shout or trumpet.
But now that you bring it up, re-read the verse..
It says...
With a shout, With the Voice, AND With the Trump--->
Dead rise first, then the living

It would seem from this verse that they are synonymous.
That they occur at the same time (that is "shout","voice", "trump")
Then the ordering is "dead resurrected-->rising-->living rising

2. 1 Thess 4:13-17 talks about a "trump", there is no "order" (last or otherwise) described in this particular context.

Absolutely. This is correct, I never stated otherwise for this verse.

However Cor 15:51-53 is quite specific, it tells you what that trump is, it is clearly the last trump.

1 Corinthians 15:51-53 (King James Version)
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump(3): for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised(4) incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

3. Matt 24:30 uses the word "they" (not "us" or "ye"), IOW: "they" is EXCLUSIVE of "ye". (Did Jesus ever describe a "they" to mean the Saints?)

"then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven.."

The "they" here, is clearly the tribes of the earth that mourn. Yes you're correct when you say "they" is exclusive of "ye". I never said otherwise.
(the next verse discusses the Rapture/gathering from the 4 winds, this simply means they are gathered from the north,south,east,west)

4. Matt 24:31 again, makes no mention of a "last" trump. Was this a mistake by Jesus?

See 1 Corinthians 15:51-53. It specifies which trumpet this is.

5. Matt 24:31 mentions no "shout". (1 Thess 4:13-17)

Let's look at I Cor. 15:51-53

1 Corinthians 15:51-53 (King James Version)
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump(3): for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised(4) incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

It does not mention Jesus...the clouds, the shout, the voice of the archangel, yet this is clearly about the first resurrection of the saints, and their gathering, along with the gathering of those that are alive left (1 Thess. 4:13-17). On what basis, should we toss Matt 24:31? It is clearly a Rapture scripture, it discussing the gathering of the elect from the 4 winds. The elect (verse 31) are clearly Christians.

6. We still haven't 'solved' the "elect" issue.

On what basis should the "elect" of Matt 24:31 be anything other than Christians? This is clarified plainly in other scriptures.

Originally posted by PreTribGuy
reply to post by SirPaulMuaddib

 

Yes, and I thank you.

You had "mentioned" that you were going to deal with this in a latter post, so I wanted to either give you "breathing room" or "head off a non-argument".

:>)

Yes, I will eventually address it.

PreTribGuy
Luke 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Jesus says specifically that His disciples need to watch and pray always that they be accounted worthy to escape ALL these things.

Jesus also instructs His disciples in verse 28 of the same chapter:

Luke 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

PreTribGuy
According to scripture, not a single Saint survives the tribulation. If a Saint doesn't go in the Rapture, he/she will die in the Tribulation. IE: Not all Saints go in the Rapture. There is a reason for Jesus' warning in Luke 21:36

PreTribGuy
I think this is true:
No Saint survives the tribulation. Not one.

The reason I mentioned "the rapture" is not a phrase in the NT, is that you are claiming that Luke 21:36 is a Rapture verse.

To use your own argument....

It does not mention Jesus descending with the clouds, the shout, the voice of the archangel, not even resurrection, and yet you posit this as a Rapture verse. It simply does not match the 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 template, which is the definitive Rapture definition.

(yes, it does say "stand before the Son of man", "to stand" does not imply resurrection, the inference from the rest of the verse is just the opposite ("to escape")).

1 Thessalonians 4:15
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Clearly there are some Christians who are alive on earth at the Rapture event.

Luke 21 (King James Version)
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Before dealing with who are alive, dead, martyred or escape...

Let's find out some more clues about who the "elect" are.

Matthew 24:22
And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved (alive): but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Mark 13:20
And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved(alive): but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.

Mark 13:27
And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

It should be clear from Matt. 24:22, Mark 13:20, that the Tribulation will be "shortened" (that is, ended at 1260 days, rather than letting it continue on for X amount of years), for the elects sake. It is for the elect's sake, it is ended, therefore the "elect" are STILL ALIVE.
The Tribulation is ended for their sake, it makes no sense for the Tribulation to be ended for "dead elect" (whoever the "elect" may be).

They survive.

The "elect" are chosen.

Let's find out who are the chosen....

John 15:19
If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

1 Corinthians 1:27
But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;

1 Peter 2:9
But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

Clearly the elect, the chosen of God, are SAINTS. They are Christians, they are the Church. The Church is composed of the elect and chosen.


Let's look at Mark 13:27 again...

Mark 13:27
And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

These "elect" (again) are gathered together from the uttermost part of the earth.

Just who are these elect? Are they Christians?

Notice! Here is the answer, here are "the who" that are gathered.

2 Thessalonians 2
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

The "elect" of Mark 13:27 that are gathered, is clearly identified as THE CHURCH.



Now again, there still remains the issue of Luke 21:36.

Luk 21:36 Watch therefore, praying in every season that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things which shall occur, and to stand before the Son of Man.

The worthy escape. They escape, and they stand before the Son of Man.

BUT TO WHERE, DO THEY ESCAPE?

reply to post by SirPaulMuaddib

Clearly there are some Christians who are alive on earth at the Rapture event.

Lots of issues brought up and I'll try to address most of them.

Starting with the above statement: I agree. It is the 'timing' of the rapture that we are dealing with, aren't we?

reply to post by SirPaulMuaddib

It should be clear from Matt. 24:22, Mark 13:20, that the Tribulation will be "shortened" (that is, ended at 1260 days, rather than letting it continue on for X amount of years), for the elects sake. It is for the elect's sake, it is ended, therefore the "elect" are STILL ALIVE.

Again, I agree. The "elect" is alive AFTER the Tribulation, AFTER the 2nd coming of Jesus Christ.

But who are the "elect"?

The truth about the rapture ... two things ...

#1 - This is at least the 100th thread on 'the rapture' here at ATS/BTS.

#2 - There is NO pre-trib rapture. It was invented by Nelson Darby as soul-candy for itching ears in the mid 1800s.

reply to post by FlyersFan

#2 - There is NO pre-trib rapture. It was invented by Nelson Darby as soul-candy for itching ears in the mid 1800s.

This was dealt with earlier in the thread:

Originally posted by Locoman8
The idea of a Pre-trib or Mid-trib rapture never existed until the 19th century.

Not true.
There is a something written by Pseudo-Ephraem (c. 374-627):

All the saints and elect of God are gathered together before the tribulation, which is to come, and are taken to the Lord, in order that they may not see at any time the confusion which overwhelms the world because of our sins.

from here: Pseudo-Ephraem

reply to post by Locoman8



Finally, someone besides me see this as well!!! I have been telling people for well over 20 years that the tribulation will take place first. Too many verses tells us this.

Good post I gave you a star and flag.

Revelation seems to indicate that there will be four groups that have survived through history up to the end of the age.

Thyatira

Rev 2:25 But that which you have, hold fast until I come.





Sardis

Rev 3:3 ... Therefore if you will not watch, I will come upon you as a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you.





Philadelphia

Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Rev 3:11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.





Laodiceans

Rev 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock:...

The Thyatirans are told to "hold fast until I come"

Sardis is told "I will come upon you as a thief"

Philadelphia is told "Behold, I come quickly"

Laodiceans is told "I stand at the door, and knock"



It is like the approach of somebody you are expecting, you see him in the distance, and he gets closer and closer, till he's at the door and knocking.

Apparently the Thyatirans, Sardis, Philadelphians, survive in some shape or form and number, the Laodiceans have a different fate.



Out of this group of four. The only one fully protected from the "hour of temptation" are the Philadelphians.




[edit on 26-5-2008 by SirPaulMuaddib]