The truth behind "THE RAPTURE"

I need to get something off my chest because I was reading a thread on here about the return of Christ. The subject turned to the rapture and I just want to show all pre-tribulation rapture believers something that proves that the rapture is indeed AFTER the tribulation.
I have scripture to back it up. Matthew 24, better known as the Olivet Prophecy in verses 29-31.

"29: Immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

30: Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31: And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His ELECT from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."



Basically saying that after the tribulation he will call on all the faithful, living and dead to join him as he readies the great battle of Armageddon.


Even before this was said in the Olivet Prophecy, Jesus spoke in verse 9:

9: "Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you and you will be hated by all nations for My name's sake."


We will all have to go through the tribulation. What Jesus says is that those of us who are faithful to him and live by His teachings will be saved from God's wrath.... but not from Satan's wrath. Christians will be persicuted for His name's sake. The rapture is post-trib. The whole idea of a pre-trib rapture never existed until the 19th century when a few protestant groups started throwing the idea around. It caught great popularity with Tim Lahaye and his "Left Behind" series of books. They are great books but they are also fiction. The word, "rapture" isn't even mentioned in the english translation of the Bible. It is a word taken from the latin bible because of the word, "rapatua" which translates, "to meet up in the sky".

The famous verses in the new testiment that glorify the rapture is in 1 Thessalonians chapter 4 verses 13 - 18.

"13: But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope.
14: For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
15: For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
16: For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
17: The we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
18: Therefore comfort one another with these words."

Paul is basically telling the thessalonians this to comfort them. They were worried that the people who die before the return of Christ will not inherit his kingdom. Paul reassures them that the dead will rise first and then those of us left after the tribulation will join them to be with Jesus forever. That passage proves a rapture.... just not a pre-trib rapture. Jesus said it in the Olivet Prophecy that his elect will be called to the sky AFTER the tribulation. Anyone want to prove that it's a pre-trib rapture? Tim Lahaye even admits the fact that he's researching the possibility of a pre-trib rapture. That means, he has no evidence to back up the theory. Remember, this idea of pre-trib rapture never even started until the 19th century with a few protestant churches in America. We will all have to suffer the tribulation because we are all sinners. Being right with God only protects you from his wrath on the anti-christ non-believers and blind in faith.

Even if you are a post-trib'er you could be in error.
I was just talking to one today who thinks that despite going trough the tribulation, he will not be killed, because of the sealing.

I said tell that to the christians of east timore, in indonisia.
They were massicured by their own army, wih the help of the US.
We will be in the same danger, even with the seal of God.
So, no reason to be complaicent.
Not everyone who goes to a pre-trib church are so sure.

The elect are left with the to be damned wicked ones.

Heaven (as the dead in Christ) will desend by moving away from the Lord (the most High Up) here in air (which is on earth. Thus meaning the Lord will have the actual wicked removed, not us who will become upped in being). "Up" in "caught up" is implying like a 1up or up grade like in a video game where the character advances in some way which ultimately implyies a change of some great kind for the better occurs within them/as them. Do you understand?

All have remained alive of us though many over history appear to be gone. The dead in Chirst are not alive like us because they are a close alien race labeled the devil. The devil is a different being than the most High. Only one alive can tell that they themself are infact alive, it can not be told if a different alien being is alive or something else, specially since it wont stop being an iniquity and wicked to us in our judgment. Anyway, the dead in Christ are the wicked. They've shown they wont respond to changing from wickness by desire and will because of rejecting Christ and trying to act as Christ to help save themselves through gross injustice. False Christs are those who try to act as Christ for their own kind's sake at the cost of inflicting us and leaveing us inflicted with tribulation.

[edit on 11-4-2008 by Mabus]

reply to post by Mabus


I can kind of follow what you are saying, except for the part about aliens.
What is the difference between an alien and a non-alien?
Is it that you can not tell if they are alive, or not?
I also do not understand the thing about trying to be like Christ.
Personaly, being Christ is something only Christ can do.
The very deffinition of being a christ means no one else can be christ.
There can only be one christ.
That is what it means, to be designated to a singular position.
So if people are trying to BE christ, that could be a problem.
If someone wanted to follow certain behaviors that Christ had, like not being selfish, that would be a good thing.

reply to post by jmdewey60


The entire body of Christ (Apocalypse) is Christ (Apocalypse). The entire body of the wicked is being the dead in Christ (Apocalypse).

Alien soul wise. The devil was a murderer from the beginning. You can figure by taking over in operation of a 'to be at some point' human body that they are the abomination of desolation standing. Yes, indeed the human bodies with souls of the wicked alien race isnt supposed to be looking like it's alive and well as if it's like the rest of us.

The most High wont sentence it's own to hell, but will sentence a foreign being that is a theif that lies in the most High's name and causes iniqiuty and wickedness and evil to prosper.

Evil is disreguard for what another is telling in a heed form concerning what is a troubling matter to them. If I hit you and disreguard you telling me to you it hurts and that I should stop because of that, then I'd be being evil. The alien race are the paranormal ppl who have will power over certian abilities. Anything paranormal they do is far from being accidental. For it's on purpuse even in their noticing.

The alien race was given fair warning that they should stop, but they wont and so they go to hell where in such the way they will be as though disreguarded since they've been evil having disreguard for our persons and human bodies in a dishonorable/disrespectful way.

The false Christs are being the dead in Christ. They try hard to seem as us, but they are so so different in many ways that are evil and alien in nature.

[edit on 12-4-2008 by Mabus]

reply to post by Mabus


Ok, glad you cleared that up.
I hope you do not have to many problems from aliens.
Evil can be very unpleasant, especialy the way you describe it.
If someone was hitting me, I would have to do something about it.
My survival instict would force me to strike back.
Then I would have to do something evil and we are kind of stuck with it.
So, potentialy we are all evil, but we need to keep it at a low level and not let it take us over.

If you're waiting for the tribulation and it hasn't come yet, it's because it is happening all around you and you aren't paying any attention to it.

Being raptured is being carried away in spirit to the other place as part of a fulfillment of prophecy, until the end or last day.

If you aren't being raptured right now, then I would say a person should re-examine their thinking on when and how the end times all goes down, for clearly it isn't waiting on anyone but yourself to understand what it is.

Loco hello

one of the biggest things for me, that Christans will be around for the tribulation are the following examples of Gods people being around when God gives out his wrath to sinners

Exodus 12:13

And the blood shall be to you for a token upon the houses where ye are: and when I see the blood, I will pass over you, and the plague shall not be upon you to destroy you, when I smite the land of Egypt.

2) The Battle of Jericho

Behold, when we come into the land, thou shalt bind this line of scarlet thread in the window which thou didst let us down by: and thou shalt bring thy father, and thy mother, and thy brethren, and all thy father's household, home unto thee.

3) Slaughter of the wicked in Ezekiel

And the LORD said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof

all the best

David

All that indicates is that these people were there while the wrath of God took place. He just passed over the righteous. The same with the tribulation. If you are right with God, he will not send his plagues out to you. Don't confuse this with Satan's wrath. The final 3 1/2 years, God gives Satan the power to do what he wants. That means even if you are right with God and are sealed with his mark, you are still vunerable to persecution. The apostles were persecuted for spreading the word of Jesus. The same can and will happen to the end-time followers of Christ. We will be martyred for His name's sake but will be rewarded for it when Christ sets up his kingdom on Earth.

loco

i agree

my point was that Christians will go through tribulation as God will not remove us all with a rapture.

Im not confused with satans wrath, Satan was wrath with the women (church)

if we are not here he wouldnt be

david

My understanding of scripture points me toward a post-trib rapture. It may well be the just and saved will be the ones left behind. After all, the millennial kingdom with Christ as King will be here on earth, won't it?

John 17

14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

Christ is expected to return to the world in the Second Coming as Judge and King. The saved are to spend eternity with Him. Where will that be? I believe it will be here on earth.

24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

[edit on 15-4-2008 by Icarus Rising]

You don't have to be uncertain about that. Jesus returns to earth to set up his kingdom after the tribulation. We have 1000 years of peace on earth. No one goes to heaven or hell. If you read scripture carefully, not a single human has entered the kingdom of heaven except for Christ himself. The people who are dead, stay asleep until the return of Christ on earth. This is the rapture after the tribulation. Satan is imprisoned for the durration of the 1000 year peace. Afterwards, those who have not known evil will be tested when Christ lets Satan decieve once more. After Satan fails, he will be judged and cast into the lake of fire along with the beasts of the tribulation. From there on, the second ressurrection will happen and those who did not repent before the return of Christ will have one last chance as Christ will explain why things happened the way they did. Christ will educate the people. Most will repent but a small percentage will be so hell-bent on revenge that they will be cast into the lake of fire. Most of humanity will see the kingdom of Christ and a very few will end up in hell. The punishment for not repenting at Christs return is that you miss out on the 1000 years of peace on earth. After that millenium of peace, humanity will transition into spirit beings the way Christ did. This millenium will still see death and birth but will see peace and prosperity. Heaven is the world in which the spirit beings live. Angels and God. Christ establishes heaven on earth for mankind.... the way it was when Adam and Eve lived in the Garden of Eden before eating the apple.

Originally posted by Locoman8
We will all have to go through the tribulation.

No, not all. There is a parallel passage in Luke that offers some further instructions:

Luke 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Jesus says specifically that His disciples need to watch and pray always that they be accounted worthy to escape ALL these things.

Jesus also instructs His disciples in verse 28 of the same chapter:

Luke 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

(IE: Not AFTER these things come to pass, nor in the MIDDLE of these things...but when these thing BEGIN)

reply to post by PreTribGuy


I think Jesus is talking about escaping the curses that fall on the un-watchful.
Our salvation does draw near, and we need to look to God.
For the sake of the elect, the time is cut short, otherwise none will be left alive.

reply to post by Locoman8


my understanding from reading the book of revelation is that Messiah is the G-D of the 7 churches(chapter 1)

from what i perceive all 7 are the same 1 church of G-D yet all 7 exhibit different main characteristics that predominate their behaviour in the past and now down to the end where it seems to me that the 7th church-----laodicea and the attitude of the majority of its members predominates.

i would assume that revelation3:10 means that if a follower of the Messiah has the characteristics that were/are exemplified in these ones that Messiah will spare them during the tribulation to come.

because you have kept the word of My perseverance,I also will keep you from the hour of testing,that hour which is about to come upon the whole world,to test those who dwell on the earth.

this verse 10 and revelation12:14 appear to be connected where it says------2 wings of the great eagle were given to the woman,so that she could fly into the wilderness(not heaven) to her place ,where she was nourished for a time and times and half a time(3 1/2 years) from the presence of the serpent.
while verse 17 the dragon was enraged with the woman,and went off to make war with the rest of her children,who KEEP the commandments of G-D and hold to the testimony of Messiah.

It speaks about God's true church being protected from His wrath because those who follow Chist in the true Church of God will be sealed. This isn't a rapture, it's a protective exile from persecution. Just remember what Jesus said. He said that AFTER the tribulation of those days the angels will collect His elect. That's a clear indication of Post-trib.

Originally posted by Locoman8
It speaks about God's true church being protected from His wrath because those who follow Chist in the true Church of God will be sealed. This isn't a rapture, it's a protective exile from persecution. Just remember what Jesus said. He said that AFTER the tribulation of those days the angels will collect His elect. That's a clear indication of Post-trib.

Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Rev 7:13-14 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation (killed in the tribulation), and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus (killed during the tribulation), and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

According to scripture, not a single Saint survives the tribulation. If a Saint doesn't go in the Rapture, he/she will die in the Tribulation. IE: Not all Saints go in the Rapture. There is a reason for Jesus' warning in Luke 21:36

Originally posted by Locoman8
He said that AFTER the tribulation of those days the angels will collect His elect.

But Jesus did NOT say "after" in verse 31:

Matt 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

1. Although verse 31 follows verses 29 and 30, there is no CLEAR words of chronology in verse 31. IE: Verse 31 does NOT start with "then", but "and".

2. Matthew 24 jumps around a bit chronologically, does it not? We get a bit of the picture, but in some cases there is no definitive time line of events (the order of events).

3. Matthew 24:31 describes the gathering (by angels) from one end of HEAVEN to the other, not earth. (Details matter in eschatology).

4. Mark 13:27 DOES put the gathering of the elect after "that tribulation":
Mark 13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

5. Mark 13:27 apparently signals the VERY END of the tribulation, for in the previous verse Jesus has returned. Please note the ABSENCE of the word "ye" in verse 26:
And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

6. There is the very same absence of the word "ye" in Matt 24:30:
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

7. Jesus said He will return as a "thief in the night", clearly the picture in verse 30 of Matthew is NOT a picture (figuratively) of Jesus returning as a thief, for ALL will see Him (and mourn...not a GOOD thing!).

8. There is no POSITIVE indication (that I can find) that the "elect" in Matthew 24:31 are alive, it just says "elect". Neither in Mark 13:27. They MAY be alive, but that is just a presumption. My guess is that they are sleeping (dead)....and they are those who are the Saints killed during the tribulation.

Eschatology is one of the most difficult subjects to study (in my opinion). It appears that God made it confusing ON PURPOSE. Why? I don't know.

But, with that said, it cannot be that verse 31 in Matthew 24 is a "rapture" verse, for it takes place AFTER the tribulation...AFTER Jesus returns. (Jesus returns at the END of the tribulation). But Jesus instructs us:
Luke 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

(Also note, again, the absense of the word "ye" in the previous verse:
Luke 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

Unless I'm misunderstanding you, you are placing the rapture "after" the 2nd coming of Jesus? Correct me if I'm not understanding you.

My take on the rapture is post-tribulation. Jesus returns after the tribulation and just upon his return, he gathers his elect in the rapture. Matthew 24 speaks of all that follow Christ faithfully. Dead and alive along with those who knew not Christ but followed the Laws of God before the Messiah was born. The idea of a Pre-trib or Mid-trib rapture never existed until the 19th century. In fact, rapture is an abuse of a word. People percieve the rapture being a great call to heaven before the tribulation ever begins, but the fact is that it's not a call to heaven. Jesus was the only man to ever enter heaven as the bible says. Earth was made for man to dwell and when Jesus returns, he will call his elect who will be made priests and apostles and they shall rule with Him for 1000 years. Those who survive the tribulation shall live as a normal man/woman would, but in peace and prosperity. Death and birth will be part of this 1000 years and after this millineum, the judgement shall take place and those who repent at judgement shall become of the family of God, but those who deny redemption shall return to the grave and be dead forever. Heaven is a spirit world for God and the angels. Hell is a mistranslation which actually translates in Greek to hades, which is then translated to english as death. The lake of fire that is spoken of is yet another spirit world in which the devil himself and all fallen angels/demons shall perish forever after the judgement. There are many misconceptions that traditional christianity has been blinded by. The perception of heaven and hell, the rapture, the judgement have all been part of a misconception thanks to man-made doctrines that tend to be followed moreso than the Holy Bible itself. The punishment of sin is death. You can defeat death by redemption of your sins through Jesus Christ. All who are to live in the time of tribulation, will have to suffer the tribulation until the Son of Man return at the blowing of the 7th trumpet. Your faith in God and Christ seals you from the wrath of God, yet persecution is still possible. The true church of God and any faithful followers of Christ are given instruction to stay in the wilderness to escape persecution, all the while as those faithful followers bring more people to convert and save from death.

Now as for your take on matthew 29-31, you claim it's not in chronological order, but you fail to realize the word association between the verses.

29: Immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

30: Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31: And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His ELECT from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other


Verse 29 speaks of the events that are to take place upon the return of Christ. The key word in verse 30 is the first word of the verse, "Then" which means "immediately following the powers of heaven shaking" the sign of the son of Man will appear in heaven. Verse 31 continues to speak of the return of the son of Man and as far as the "one end of heaven to the other" it speaks of the angels and their gathering of the elect from the four winds of the earth. All of this happens at the end of the tribulation. All of the other 3 books of the Gospel speaks of the same events in the same order.

St. Mark 13:24-27 speaks of the same events in the same chronological order.

24: But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25: And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26: And then shall they see the Son of man coming n the clouds with great power and glory.
27: And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

That alone defeats your argument on the order of the Olivet Prophecy being mixed in non-chronological order. Do you want more proof?
St. Luke 21:25-28 speaks of these same events in a different manner.

25: And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26: Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking aftr those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27: And they shall see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28: And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

So you see, three different gospels with the same message in the same chronological order. I am not here to mock you, but the kind of thinking you presented simply speaks of your misconception of what the bible spells out in plain english/hebrew/greek.

[edit on 5/22/2008 by Locoman8]

reply to post by PreTribGuy


Luke 21:28 is a misunderstanding by your part. When these things begin to come to pass, your redemption draws nigh... "nigh" means "near" which means man's time of rule will be cut short for the "elects sake" otherwise no man would survive the wars they start. 3 1/2 years is a very short time. So when the tribulation starts, if you are saved, your redemption will draw near.