Life on mars this is it! no doubt!

Originally posted by pynner
Best pics we have seen from mars?
are you kidding me? you haven't seen many I guess.

Live on mars this is it! no doubt!
LMFAO.. not even close... so you have some pics of dunes with different colored soil... that is NOT life on mars... and yes, there is doubt (no doubt about life on mars.. just doubt about the pics)..
I agree with dave420 for a change, you guys see what you wanna see. nothing more.
to me it just looks like the soil underneath is different in some way (composition) and when the ridges fell a bit on the tops of the dunes, it just exposed the difference in color.
does mars have lightning? that might be one way too.

sorry guys, there are toooo many BETTER pics on here and other places for this to be called "Live on mars this is it! no doubt! "
HA.

I bet in about 2 weeks, someone will post these pics again claiming that its once again, total proof... when its not.

do better guys...

I think if you had tried you might have gotten a few more laughs in at curious peoples expense. Way to forward science! Have you ever seen these dune shapes on Earth? I havent. _ That makes it bloody interesting!

I read the response about this being frozen water within the dunes and that is def. possible. Still it is INTERESTING!

Less money to wars and more to science!

Originally posted by stikkinikki

I think if you had tried you might have gotten a few more laughs in at curious peoples expense. Way to forward science! Have you ever seen these dune shapes on Earth? I havent. _ That makes it bloody interesting!

I read the response about this being frozen water within the dunes and that is def. possible. Still it is INTERESTING!

Less money to wars and more to science!

I wasn't going for laughs at anyones expense... With in the context of the thread title, I was pointing out that it isn't proof of anything other than dunes..
and calm down with that "Way to forward science!" BS.. take a breath and relax... me pointing out that the pics don't prove anything won't hurt science. I promise. sheesh.

anyways.. with that non-sense outta the way.... I actually like the idea of frozen water.. sounds reasonable.. could be different colored soil.. could be lots of things.. I agree
(But it's still not proof of life as claimed.)

Originally posted by _Phoenix_

Originally posted by ziggystar60


Just wanted to remind you that the OP mentioned that english/american is not his native language. Why can't you give him a break about his language skills? And in this forum, we should actually thank the OP for bringing this images to our attention, so they can be discussed in a sivil and intelligent way. A such discussion can hopefully make us all a little wiser and a little less ignorant.

Best regards, Ziggystar60

It's civil not sivil.

Just kidding! lol. Your right, people need to be more polite and friendly.

It's "You're" not "your"


I think the discoloured sand explanation seems the most likely to me. I'm not against life on mars. I think SOME of the "fossil" images are rather intriguing. But after looking at these pictures abit, it seems consistant with a dark material dispersed "downhill" if you will.
I don't claim any understanding of the conditions to produce a geyser like the ones mentioned, so I can't really comment to that.

Originally posted by jokei
Purely a theory here and as such please take it with a pinch of salt, I'm just tossing in an idea based on what I see as a layman, with no qualifications in this area at all... also, my ability with paint is terrible...

The, straightish lines that run along are to indicate the peak of the dune, these are running roughly north/south as you look at the picture.
The 1st (lower) circle is what I'm labelling the 3d object to be.
The dark patch below that is what I'm labelling Shadow.
The lighter/patchier area above I'm labelling Flow.
The top circled bit, I'm labelling Stain.

So, hypothetically think of the 3d object as an exhaust/exploding plant/defecating animal/water-geyser etc, anything, just something that might emit/expel something...
The shadow - fairly self-explanatory...
The top circled bit, I've labelled Stain, could be water that has frozen, sewage, oil etc.

I'm not saying I believe this, just counting it as a possibility to be debunked or not, basing it on my first impressions of the picture.

Kudos to the OP for bringing this up and making such a great job of getting his point across in a non-native tongue.

This is more or less what I'd lean to. I would however suggest that if the dark "stain" is sufficient for the one side of the dune, why can't it be sufficient to cause the "shadow" as well.
To me it looks like a darker material distributed from the top of the dune. Whether it is simply darker soil or ejecta deposits from a geyser, I have no idea.

Originally posted by sensfan
As stated, this has been discussed before, and there is an explanation, and no, they are not trees or any other sort of plant life...

What causes the black dots on dunes on Mars? As spring dawned on the Northern Hemisphere of Mars in 2004, dunes of sand near the poles begin to defrost. Thinner regions of ice typically thaw first revealing sand whose darkness soaks in sunlight and accelerates the thaw. The process might involve sandy jets exploding through the thinning ice. By summer, the spots expanded to encompass the entire dunes that were then completely thawed and dark. The carbon dioxide and water ice actually sublime in the thin atmosphere directly to gas. Taken in mid-July, the above image shows a field of spotted polar dunes spanning about 3 kilometers near the Martian North Pole. Today, the future of Mars rovers Spirit and Opportunity remains unknown windy dust storms continue to starve them of needed sunlight.

Originally posted by skept!cal
sorry my friend, but i wouldnt post this as absolute fact...have you actually been to the surface to be sprayed by these sand jets?...I hate to sound condeceding, but until we set foot on the surface its all speculation, its good to research these kind of things just dont count it as fact until well its actually facts...Deny Ignorance...Think you might be matrixing a lil bit

Good Day
Skept!cal

My vote is geysers of some sort, or more probably giant sand worms frolicking.

Okay, I did a composite image here, getting the entire terrain in perspective and isolating the 4 Objects 'stains/trees/geysers/whatevers' that are of interest to this debate. I've numbered them.
The image is here:


The photo we were debating above is numbered 4, and was the only one facing 'up' before I rotated the image 90 degrees.

In the above image the Sun is now coming in from the top (and to the right).

I've blown up each of the 4 objects to 200 percent, and I'll readily admit, it's a crappy image we're dealing with. I'd really love to get a look at the real NASA raw image data if possible. Can the original poster provide us with some source information?

Anyway, Each object appears to my eye to be 3-dimensional, when taken in perspective against the low lying areas of terrain in the background and the angle of the Sun.

Object 1


Object 2


Object 3


Object 4


Any thoughts or analysis is welcome. I hope we can acquire the original images...

-WFA

reply to post by WitnessFromAfar


Good work! I believe you are right. That proves it's a 3d object in my opinion.

It would have to be so black to even reflect no light for it not to be a 3d object right?

Black
en.wikipedia.org...



[edit on 9-4-2008 by _Phoenix_]

A couple of the photos reminds me of something being magnified under a micro scope. Not saying that's what it is just looks like it to me.

Originally posted by sensfan
As stated, this has been discussed before, and there is an explanation, and no, they are not trees or any other sort of plant life...

Sure it's been discussed and there are a wider range of opinions than you seem to think.

A new test for the presence of vegetation on Mars depends on the fact that all organic molecules have absorption bands in the vicinity of 3.4 . These bands have been studied in the reflection spectrum of terrestrial plants, and it is found that for most plants a doublet band appears which has a separation of about 0.1 and is centered about 3.46 M Spectra of Mars taken during the 1956 opposition indicate the probable presence of this band.TLis evidence and the well-known seasonal changes of the dark areas make it extremely probable that vegetation in some form is present.

www.journals.uchicago.edu...

"If there is vegetation on Mars, it should be concentrated in the darkarea elements, measuring 10 to 100 kilometers. Vegetation is the best hypothesis to account for seasonal changes in the maria and for the persistence of these formations despite dust storms of global extent. Survival of vegetation in the extreme dryness of the Martian climate could depend on the low night-time temperature and deposition of hoarfrost, which could melt into droplets after sunrise, before evaporating. If not vegetation, it must be something thing specifically Martian; no other hypothesis hitherto proposed is able to account for the facts."

www.sciencemag.org...

Conclusion and biological interpretation of DDSs: We
found that the circular shape of DDSs is independent from
local small-scale topographic variation. Fig. 4 shows surface
pattern of grooves on the top of the ice coverage, which remained
untouched while gray and dark spotting had been
advancing beneath them. This observation and existence of
DDS-holes may be interpreted so that the development of the
DDSs begins from the bottom of the frosted ice-snow layer.
This may imply that the melting/evaporation process “eats
up” the frosted layer from the bottom where the DDS centers
develop, which become the dark holes of the DDSs.

The bulk radial symmetry, the flowing (seepage) patterns
and the defrosting beginning from bottom of DDSs suggested
us a biological interpretation of the all DDS phenomena.
Therefore we proposed that for interpreting these complex
seasonal phenomena the sublimation processes should
be combined with some kind of biological activity [1, 2].
Under Martian circumstances the only possible solvent is
liquid water with some salt component.

We interpreted the sequence of DDS formation and
changes as a biomarker [8]. If Martian Surface Organisms
(MSOs) exist, they could dwell below the surface ice, which
is heated up by their absorption of sunlight. Later they grow
and reproduce through photosynthesis and they can generate
their own living conditions. Not only liquid water, but even
water vapor can sustain this form of life. Water vapor can
migrate in the soil below the CO2 frost cover supporting the
life conditions for endolithic type communities and this activity
enhances the defrosting/melting process on the top of
the dark dune surface


www.lpi.usra.edu...

Dr. Serguei M. Pershin PhD, a Principal Investigator for the NASA Mars Polar Lander LIDAR experiment, Russia's first experiment on a US spacecraft claims he has discovered organic pigments on Mars relating to ancient photosynthetic organisms.

ICAMSR Executive Director, Barry E. DiGregorio has written an exclusive article about his discovery in the September issue of Spectroscopy magazine. Why is the discovery of organic pigments on Mars so important for the science of exobiology?

Because it might still be there today and perhaps that is what Dr. Gilbert V.Levin and Dr. Patricia Ann Straat found in their experiment 24 years ago with NASA's Viking Mars spacecraft. On Mars, during the Hesperian period of postulated oceans, lakes and rivers, there would have been sufficient energy input from solar radiation to support life with the characteristics of the cyanobacteria that dominate many terrestrial and aquatic habitats on Earth, e.g. the cold deserts in Antarctica. The key to the survival of cyanobacteria are in part due to the pigments they have such as:


www.spacedaily.com...

So please, sens, don't for a moment hope that you can shut down a thread by using a actual honest to god source. As you can see some of us have similar abilities.

Stellar

reply to post by StellarX


Well, at least sensfan's sources actually address the specific topic of the thread. Which is of course, the dark objects or areas at the top of the dunes pictured.

Hi StellarX!! Decide to make some friends today?

Originally posted by MrPenny
Well, at least sensfan's sources actually address the specific topic of the thread. Which is of course, the dark objects or areas at the top of the dunes pictured.

Maybe you go to the trouble of reading my posts you will find that they do address the dark dune spots such as the one's sens attempted to use as explanation? IF anything sens should not have used the DDS phenomenon to attempt a explanation of these apparent liquid runoffs , which is probably what they are, but since he couldn't resist i didn't bother to.

Hi StellarX!! Decide to make some friends today?

Here? Why would i wish to do that? You do realise that there are places for that that entirely does away with the sometimes informed discussion we find on this forum? I know it can be complex concept to grasp but not everyone attempts to mix business and pleasure and i am most certainly not active on this forum to make 'friends'.

In fact i have little but contempt to spare for those who operate in that matter given what they do to topics with their inane banter.

Stellar

What a shame that these fantastic images (beautiful too, in my view) are once again undermined by the OP's determination to assert that there is "no doubt" and there is "proof" in them of life on Mars.

The whole point of these images, surely, is that there IS doubt? It's the "doubt" itself that is worth debating.

I'm afraid to say that I'm finding it increasingly difficult to give credence to a side of the Mars debate that has such unfathomable faith in the authority of its own findings. The reality is that with pictures like these we are no closer to finding life on Mars, or evidence of life on Mars, than Nasa themselves are. What we have here is a fascinating phenomenon that we cannot conclusively explain.

Theorise whatever you wish, but please, please, please stop posting as fact ideas that are anything back - it drives people away (myself included) from a debate that you ought to be encouraging people to engage with.

LW

Oil Derricks kidding of course

i had a thought a big ago about the idea of living organisms on mars though it has little to do with the photos in the OP.

we all know that there are organisms that grow in harsh to hostile environs yeah?

so, what about the idea that mars truely was lifeless until the last 40 years?

i mean we've been landing (or crashing) there for a while and while most of the landers etc are built in cleanrooms...theres always the chance something got on one somewhere along the line and once it got to mars it adapted (mutated?) then thrived?

could have started as nothing more than an airborne fungal spore picked up beteen the manufacturing plant and the launch pad.

just a thought i figured id share.

good stuff though op

(oh, and a plague upon the house of anyone critical of my spelling, punctuation or capitalization in this post. im highly medicated and bout to pass the hell out. thank you, come again)

Originally posted by WitnessFromAfar
Arthur C. Clarke's 'trees' have not been explained properly either.


I'll wait until someone can show me a 'from the ground' image of the same location before I'm calling this one 'case closed' one way or the other.

Hi WFA! Ok, your wait is now over! Check out the images with progressive resolution (below) and you’ll see what I mean.




South Polar Region PSP_003443_0980
Credit: NASA/JPL/University of Arizona

Do they look like trees or just cracks/fissures on the surface of Mars? But keep lookin’! You never know what turns up!!

Where those pics posted in the OP are concerned, I don't think they are trees casting shadows! They most probably are stains of melted ‘dirty ice’ forced above due to subsurface pressure and flowing down the dunes. As to why they have been forced out from tops of the dunes and not from the surface are not known. Probably the geological process is akin to small volcanoes on Earth, but these spew melted ice instead of molten lava.

Cheers!

The original images are here…

www.msss.com...
hirise.lpl.arizona.edu...

Thanks Mike! You're right, regarding Arthur C Clarke's 'trees', the further you zoom in, the more it looks like fissures. I didn't 'get' the zoom sequence before, when Sensfan attempted to explain this.

One of the major things I found anomalous in the original image I posted from that set was the appearance of 'shadows'. It seemed very strange to me that a series of fissures would create a shadow like that, each apparent shadow seeming to describe the border of each 'tree' (now known to be a 'starburst crater' or fissures in the ground).

That's a great example of the illusions that can come forth as a result of imaging from orbit.

What I really meant about a 'from the ground' shot (image) was a side view, taken by someone (or a robot) on the surface looking at the 'side' of these objects. But this higher resolution scan brings out enough detail to make it clear to me that we're looking at fissures. Thanks for the links to the original image.

Call me crazy (I prefer thorough ) but I'd still like to see the NASA originals for the OP's 'stains/trees/geysers/whatever' area. I'm fairly convinced at this point that the apparent 3-d I'm seeing could well be an illusion, but I'd still like to examine the higher resolution images to get a better look. Is the OP still following this thread? Is there any way the OP could provide this data?

Thanks for the info Mike, you rock!

-WFA

I find all the supposition and possible explanations very interesting. The first time I saw the images, I thought they were compelling. But then I began to think about a world that isn't earth, a world with a much colder temperature. I looked at these protuberances, as they do appear to be three dimensional objects, my conclusion would be frozen geysers of some sort.

What would cause these eruptions? I have no idea. I haven't seen any studies dealing with the sub-soil mechanics or geographic mechanisms of Mars, so I don't think anyone could dismiss this notion.

I don't have any fancy sources to quote, nor any real photographic analysis experience. Further than that, I'd like to believe that there is or was life on Mars. These photos just don't prove it to me.

reply to post by mikesingh


Mike scan over the 4th photo you presented South Polar region PSP_003443_0980 NASA with a fine tooth comb. I am seeing taller buildings and what looks to be holding tanks near and in line with the white ridges and crevices. If you will go to the S.E. quadrant of photo in the darker area you will see skyscraper looking structures.

Toward the bottom of photo, 3rd white crevice or ridge to right about an inch from bottom of photo you will see a large structure camouflaged in line with white crevice. Like you said keep looking you never know what you will find. Rik Riley







[edit on 9-4-2008 by rikriley]

I think if you look at these pictures you will see that the dark spots on the dunes are not trees,plants, bushes, etc, but just darker sand that has been exposed due to defrosting....as you can see, the dark sand is windblown, leaving traces of it spreading away from every dark spot. If it was a tree, or plant, it wouldn't leave dark streaks caused by the wind.

reply to post by sensfan


Excellent thank you! That was one of the final hurdles I was having trouble with. I was looking at the distribution of 'dark sand' as a by-product of ice (water or C02) melting, and gravity influencing the liquid as it flowed down the hill. Under this assumption, I was having trouble reconciling how the dark material could be placed in such a fashion under gravity's influence. It seemed to me that as the hills went up and down, so should the dark spots.

I had not taken into account the possibility that we're looking at darker sand, exposed in the melt, that had been influenced by the wind.

I think this may be the final answer to my questions on this image. Thanks sensfan!

I'd still like to look at those original images, if the OP ever checks back in, but I think this theory makes a whole lot of sense!

-WFA

___________________________________________________________

EDIT: For clarity, what I thought were 'shadows from a 3-d object standing upright' seem to be 'streaks of darker colored sand blown across the surface by Mars winds'.

This was a really confusing case IMO, so I just thought I'd come back and add that short translation for anyone still confused as I was...
END EDIT

___________________________________________________________

2ND EDIT:
Okay, I just looked again very carefully at the comparison images you posted Sensfan, and while the theory still sounds plausible to me, I feel that since the orientation of these particular objects is different against the dunes, it would only be right to continue investigating this case until I can access and analyze the original NASA Images.

I just can't tell if what I'm looking at in these low res images (see compilation and numbered examination above) is real or an illusion.

I'm going to have to keep myself in the 'undecided' category until I can acquire the original images. But I'll hold your theory as 'very likely' until I can actually make the proper comparisons.

In the absence of the Original Poster, I'll do my best to find these images from NASA today in my free time. I'll post again when I have more information.

END 2nd EDIT

-WFA

[edit on 9-4-2008 by WitnessFromAfar]

Originally posted by skept!cal
sorry my friend, but i wouldnt post this as absolute fact...have you actually been to the surface to climb this martian tree?...I hate to sound condeceding, but until we set foot on the surface its all speculation, its good to research these kind of things just dont count it as fact until well its actually facts...Deny Ignorance...Think you might be matrixing a lil bit

Good Day
Skept!cal

It sounds like there is a lot about the universe we won't be able to know for awhile according to you.

Anyway is there a reasonable analysis one way or another on this besides propoganda?