British ratification of EU treaty- a loss of freedom

I'm affraid that what we have here is a number of people who want to go back to living in caves, stop the world I want to get off types. We are evolving and changing all the time, not all change is good but it is inevitable, one cannot stop it because one dreams of an era gone by seen through rose tinted spectacles.

Unity makes one stronger seperation makes you weaker, isolation makes you ignorant but thats just how some would like it.

reply to post by stumason


Stu, i accept your point about Wales. I tend to classify mordern territories as having sovereignty in the past even if they were not contiguous. (e.g pre-Raj India). Technically im sure youre right about this.


You also hit the nail on the head with the Barnett formula and the West Lothian issue. An example i gave before was the West Lothian question, expanded to europe. i.e Why should a european decide what is best for our nation?

44, its not Europe making the decisions its European people making the decisions so why are you affraid of such a notion. I could understand some of your points if it was the Chinese saying it but its not. It Europeans talking about a unified future and given the fact that we have been fighting amongst each other for the last millenia you think people would welcome progress and unity but obviously not.

Originally posted by magicmushroom
44, its not Europe making the decisions its European people making the decisions so why are you affraid of such a notion. I could understand some of your points if it was the Chinese saying it but its not. It Europeans talking about a unified future and given the fact that we have been fighting amongst each other for the last millenia you think people would welcome progress and unity but obviously not.

did I miss the memo where the EU actually listened to the European people? we are already part of the EU, ive never heard a single thing about any of the decisions they make before the make them.

edn, all the info is there if your interested, I agree here in the UK they keep the lid on things but on the continent its far more in the open and discussed freely. The Politicians here dont tell us much because they dont want to give us the benefits, like more bank holidays more annual leave, greater benefits for pensioners, better health care etc. They are quick to take advantage of the EU when it lines the goverment coffers though.

Originally posted by magicmushroom
44, its not Europe making the decisions its European people making the decisions so why are you affraid of such a notion. I could understand some of your points if it was the Chinese saying it but its not. It Europeans talking about a unified future and given the fact that we have been fighting amongst each other for the last millenia you think people would welcome progress and unity but obviously not.

The reason im opposed to such a motion has been stated before.

We have more to lose than gain from such a scenario. Also, our meagre 60million voices would be drowned out by the rest of united Europe. Our views differ from Europe on a number of issues and this has been proven (eg our refusal of the Euro) which could be imposed on us in the future.

I cannot see us going to war against a european country at this point... can you? We do not need to join them to beat them- we did it outright in the skies of Britain in 1942 mate. Be grateful for what your ancestors fought for : freedom.

Originally posted by magicmushroom
They are quick to take advantage of the EU when it lines the goverment coffers though.

Which it never does. The CAP alone rinses the UK coffers and spews it to french farmers. Pathetic scenario. Also we are forced to buy wheat from Turkey instead of allowing British farmers to grow wheat- due to EU protectionist measures.

44, why are you comparing Hitlers Germany to the EU, and what exactly are you going to lose that you have not already lost as you put it. Many people when discussing these matters actualy hide their real views on these matters and with some it comes down to elitism, racism and a feeling of superiority over others.

The simple fact is that we the British people are European, our heritage is a melting pot of European culture and peoples and to try and deny that and make it seem that in some way we are seperate and different in some way is quite rediculous and proves that you dont understand the matter.

Societies are more complex than has to what money we use and who rules over whatever. The EU is young and yes there will be mistakes and injustices alonng the way but if it does grow to maturity it will be better for us all. Thinking that we can live alone and be alone in a modern World that is ever accelerating is just plain ignorance and wishful thinking.

Constantly banging on about who died in what wars has no relevence in the future and looking back think of a lost age the same. We either adapt and change or we die out, once you have grasped that concept maybe then you will understand.

Originally posted by magicmushroom
44, why are you comparing Hitlers Germany to the EU, and what exactly are you going to lose that you have not already lost as you put it. Many people when discussing these matters actualy hide their real views on these matters and with some it comes down to elitism, racism and a feeling of superiority over others.

I didnt say that, i said that you should uphold what your ancestors died for in WW2. Re-read my comment above please, im sure that'll clear it up.

Do i feel superior as a Briton? Yes, in certain ways. There are things that this country has achieved which nobody else has. This entitles us to take pride in such things. Does that make me racist? I dont think so... I can acknowledge the superiority of other countries in Europe too. The Germans are brilliant at engineering and manufacturing, the French and Spanish excell in the arts and the Italians in commerce. We used to be famed for our legal system and methodical approach to government. Not ackowledging the strengths of different cultures is the highest form of racism in my opinion.

The simple fact is that we the British people are European, our heritage is a melting pot of European culture and peoples and to try and deny that and make it seem that in some way we are seperate and different in some way is quite rediculous and proves that you dont understand the matter.

This is open to speculation. I am originally from India and I cant stand it when im called Asian. Its a slap in the face, to be turned into a generic labelled group. India is unique in its region- it has achieved things which countries such as Bangladesh and Nepal havent. It is different linguistically and ethnically and as such deserves a status aparte, ie it deserves to govern its own borders.

The absolute same scenario can be applied to Britain. When someone asks you what nationality are you, do you answer "European"?! Britain has its own traditions, language and culture. Even I, as an immigrant- as the percieved enemy of the BNP and National Front, want to preserve the unique culture of Britain. What is so wrong in that? To mix all cultures is to destroy them all- diversity is one of lifes best things as it enables different people to approach subjects from different angles. This fanaticism to mash all cultures together is nothing but inverse-racism.

It is my opinion that you cannot see my argument for one reason: you have been fed propaganda day after day of your life that it is wrong to feel pride in your nationality. It is a lamentable position indeed, for it leads to self loathing. You are not european, nor have you ever been. Nothing that the UK has accomplished is a result of Europe, it is all inspite of being attacked by the French for 700 years and the Germans in the last century. This nation's accomplishments are uniquely its own.

To say that all achievements are European is ridiculous frankly, i cant even fathom any logic to back up such a statement.

Societies are more complex than has to what money we use and who rules over whatever. The EU is young and yes there will be mistakes and injustices alonng the way but if it does grow to maturity it will be better for us all. Thinking that we can live alone and be alone in a modern World that is ever accelerating is just plain ignorance and wishful thinking.

Constantly banging on about who died in what wars has no relevence in the future and looking back think of a lost age the same. We either adapt and change or we die out, once you have grasped that concept maybe then you will understand.

Admirable sentiments, but woefully naive. It will sound callous when i say this, but i dont care about the prosperity of Europe. We must develop our own nation to the greatest extent we can.

As i stated, my main gripe with the EU is that it would not allow the UK to have a voice in internal affairs. Our voices would be drowned out by larger nations. Why dont we just join America instead? Theyre mostly ethnically European anyway... and theyre certainly closer to us in terms of language. What makes us closer to europe than to any other nation on the face of this earth? Absolutely nothing in my opinion.

Im not saying we should clam up as a nation, rather that we should be in a status which is in friendship with europe, not governed by it.

44, You say that we are strong yet think that we cannot have a voice in the new Europe, you cannot have both, either we are strong and we will prevail or we are weak and will become just a part of the herd.

Taken at a point in time it may seem that the British are differnet, unique or what ever label you wish to apply but its all about perspective. When we were living in stone huts men in Asia and the ME had Math, Chemistry, Medicine etc.

The reason we fight wars is because nations and their peoples see themselves as different, more powerful, educated etc. The minute you put up barriers thats when the trouble starts. Look at the advances we have made, not as any one nation but as a whole. There is still much to be done, I do not see myself as a citizen of the UK but as a citizen of the Planet Earth as we all are.

We allow invisible barriers to set us apart to provide a reason for hate and ignorance. Take a new born baby from every race on this Planet and nurture them without reference to nationality, colour or creed, do you think they will know hate, or racism, or recognise colour. Do you think they would understand the concept of boundaries or borders, no they would not.

From the cradle to the grave we are programmed to be different than others, to be envious, jealous, to fear everything, to be indifferent, to feel superior to others etc. etc. and where has that got us. Again we adapt and change or we die out there is no other alternative.

reply to post by magicmushroom


Very well put my friend. Im afraid to say I had to star it!

Yes, your sentiments are absolutely spot on in an ideological sense. I would love a scenario like you mention to occur, however i guess the difference between us is that i dont think that will ever occur.

My viewpoint is from the pragmatic. You mention that Briton's tribes were living in stone age huts when the ME and Asia had civilizations. Well thats true, but how far would it have got us if we had mindlessly merged with them instead of discovering all those things for ourselves?

In pragmatic terms, what happens if we get a borderless world? What happens if anyone is free to go anywhere they pleace? All opulence will be destroyed, and along with it anything of value to civilization. If we were all equal, there would be no advancement and nothing to work for. This is where communism stumbles and falls, there is no motivation for people to work.

Now in terms of governance, how would a borderless world be governed? What if the entire world ganged up on Britain and said "you must all pay 99% income tax"? Even if the government were democratically elected this scenario could occur.

At the end of the day, the only way forward i can see is the permanent and continued existence of nations. War and conflict are not only inevitable, but they are a part of human existence.

Utopia shall never exist on earth... because of the stupidity of the majority, the violence of the few and the intrinsic nature of humanity.

European Union Treaties Procured By Corruption

'The European Union Collective is illegal and so extensively criminalised that it has become all but indistinguishable from a criminal organisation. It is illegal because key EU treaties were procured by means of slush fund payments. It is corrupt because, being born in corruption, its procedures are designed to mask the corrupt activities of many of its officials, while it publishes false accounts. These findings are published today in the latest issue of International Currency Review, the London-based Journal of the International Financial Community.'

www.worldreports.org...

Originally posted by 44soulslayer
An most lamentable event is about to take place on British soil that will remove our right to choose how to live. It shall take away our voice in foreign affairs, it shall not let us choose our own domestic laws, and it shall impose directive upon directive upon us.

You don't understand the EU legislative acts.

EU DIRECTIVE is not legally binding to a member state.

EU REGULATION is legally binding.

As for Adolf parallel. He copied the idea from Napoleon. Those two wanted to unite Europe with the sword. Now this is done by a pen.

[edit on 19-3-2008 by yanchek]

Originally posted by yanchek


As for Adolf parallel. He copied the idea from Napoleon. Those two wanted to unite Europe with the sword. Now this is done by a pen.

[edit on 19-3-2008 by yanchek]

how are the two any different, the only difference is the sword spills blood directly where as the pen spills blood indirectly, apart from that they are both pretty much the same.

A united Europe is a good idea, even a united world, however our current leaders are by no means ready to take on such a task properly, we as a people arnt even suited for a united Europe right now. The problem is money and power and while these two exist and united Europe will always be corrupt and the people at the top will always be paid of by the powerful to advance there personal goals.

Its the same in the US, its the same in China and Russia and elsewhere.

Originally posted by yanchek

Originally posted by 44soulslayer
An most lamentable event is about to take place on British soil that will remove our right to choose how to live. It shall take away our voice in foreign affairs, it shall not let us choose our own domestic laws, and it shall impose directive upon directive upon us.

You don't understand the EU legislative acts.

EU DIRECTIVE is not legally binding to a member state.

EU REGULATION is legally binding.

As for Adolf parallel. He copied the idea from Napoleon. Those two wanted to unite Europe with the sword. Now this is done by a pen.

[edit on 19-3-2008 by yanchek]

en.wikipedia.org...

Actually a directive is a motion which requires the states to achieve the end result by any means possible. An EU law requires the following of a stringent process.

At the end of the day, the EU is corrupt. Do you honestly expect those of us with morals and ethics to turn a blind eye to fraud and corruption. I've personally had enough of corruption within New Labour, nevermind the EU.

(This is what I posted in another thread about the same topic)

Read both the Constitution and the Reform Treaty, in favour of it. Understood both documents very well.

If you read the Lisbon Treaty you'll see the EU does have reduced power over members states and we are given direct democracy. The power to force the EU parliament to debate and the council loses some of its legislative power too.

The council has the power to impeach the EU Presidents and the Commission can be summoned by committee's from national parliaments across the EU.

As for Nick Farage, my MEP, he will ignore anything you write to him about and has failed to answer my questions on many occasions. My letter to him about Zimbabwe resulted in him ranting to me about the EU, which I thus replied with a blunt message telling him to "do his job" instead of sending me UKIP propaganda.

UKIP were surprised when they stopped me in Canterbury and shocked that I knew the document so well, I quoted articles and page numbers to counter their so called "claims".

The whole silly argument of the EU by eurosceptics has made me come to the conclusion to emigrate from Britain once I've finished my degree and move to a European nation that can have a mature debate of Europe. This is one of the many reasons why I do not want to live in this country anymore.

reply to post by infinite


Exactly. I couldn't agree more. Now I'm in Germany, I can see Europe for what it is, and I know the UK should definitely be a part of it, if the UK wants to keep being the same nation it thinks it is.

I guess many folks are scared of losing being "British". Scared of "us" becoming "them". Just as humans have thought for thousands of years. I'm sure the EU won't mind those folks moving into caves and hiding from the sun.

Originally posted by dave420
You keep using the words "we", "us", "them", etc. That's my whole point. Hundreds of years ago, you'd use those words to describe people in your village ("us") and those outside it ("them"). After that we used it to describe people from our counties or areas. Now, some folks use it to describe folks from the same country. Some folks don't even have a concept of "them", and only see "us". The move into Europe is just the same as all the areas of the UK getting rid of their own Kings and instead being ruled as a larger and larger group. It's human societal evolution, and it won't stop just because the Daily Mail says it should

2nd most powerful country? In 1993? That's hardly a metric any political analyst will use to measure the success of a political and economic community. The fact that more happened to the UK in the last 15 years than just joining the EU means comparing then and now to figure out what we can blame/praise the EU for is absolutely, unquestionably pointless.

What we can look at, though, are the benefits of the EU. More free travel, and more free trade. Those are two massive, massive benefits of the EU. Switzerland has voluntarily adopted some of the measures the EU members have voted on, and is essentially a de-facto member of the EU. So much so that you can spend Euros there in many of the touristy towns. Switzerland has, however, had a different history in the last 15 years than the UK, so comparing the two now and saying "AHA! It's the EU's fault!" makes as much sense as blaming the difference between the performance of the UK and Switzerland on the fact that 'Allo 'Allo being cancelled.

Britain will still control its "destiny". The EU is democratic, and the UK is a major player in it. Being scared of Europe doesn't make much sense - it's our future.

With respect in the past 15 years I and everyone I talk too don't feel any benefit from another layer of political bureaucracy that is the EU. The only benefit has been (as my learned friend has already pointed out) to all the other ‘less well off’ countries, including those to the East of your country! I have an East German friend who is very grateful to come to this country bypassing your country as she feels its economically better here and she can always use or social security when the need arises.

The true winners in this are the power hungry politicians who when they have messed up say, the UK. They then get a nice plumb job in Brussels (e.g. the entire Kinnock(ex-Labour Leader) clan seem to have set-up camp over there!) and continue with the long lunches, pointless debates, rule making sessions and more jolly trips around the member states, where they will reek their havoc in policies that only aim to serve corporate global business and Banks and a NWO, ready to bolt onto the US/American alliance and then the soon to be announced China/Asian alliance.

Anyway, I don’t need to join Germany to appreciate what it has to offer in terms of social diversity, I’d just go there and experience it. I firmly believe that if a true all people vote was offered to the people of the UK and they were asked to stay in EU or completely remove like Switzerland; it would be a landslide back to Great Britain again. But, because this would be the case is the very reason why it will NEVER happen.

Id like to put forth a point blank question to the pro-euro camp if I may:

If it is regressive in your opinion to be a nationalist, and if membership of the EU brings posperity and economic cooperation and harmony...

Why the devil is Switzerland doing so well without EU membership?