British ratification of EU treaty- a loss of freedom

It is sad to see some people taking this lying down and passively accepting it. Sadly though, there is probably not much anyone can do. Once a government usually has passed something, very rarely have they taken it back out.

I definitely fear for America if and when some sort of NAU is formed. I am guessing there will be people who will be ready to give it up all up for the illusion of it all as they have for freedoms since 9/11. All we need is another terrorist attack or something big to set it off and boom we are there where the EU is now. The problem is not really with the idea, but how easy it is to take advantage of this. The bigger the pyramid, the smallest group have control over the many.


[edit on 9-3-2008 by ragnarak]

European Union - sinister motives?

my.telegraph.co.uk...

Unfortunately many still just don't get it,but they will,by which time it will be too late!The EU has always been a secret mechanism designed to end European democracy and impose a globalist Police State.The new leaders of this globalist "State" are already being trained by the Governments "Common Purpose",a sinister organisation,a so called "charity" where everything is done in secret. Do some research on "Common Purpose". One of the first steps towards dissolving the rights of the dividual nations was made by a 2005 ruling by the EU Court of Justice which gives the EU Commission the power to create new criminal laws across the EU that will supercede all local law. This negates the rights of member nations to create and impose their own laws or defend their citizens from unreasonable laws created by the EU. Member nations didn't have the right to vote on the ruling, although many opposed it.The EU Commission is appointed by the EU Parliment. Parliment cannot initiate legislation, but it can amend or veto it in many policy areas. The Parliment cannot reverse the ruling of the Court of Justice nor can it create legislation that would undo the ruling. The EU Commission has gained or will gain much more power with the EU Constitution.The EU it was not designed as a democratic institution. Most positions are appointed, not elected. Most rulings can't be appealed by member states. Citizens are not allowed to vote on the issues that affect them. The entire system is deliberately designed to remove power from the people and member states and concentrate it in a very few hands. Given human nature and the character of those who seek power, it is inevitable that the power will be abused...

More Interesting links

Symbolism - What the EU Flag stands for......
www.spirituallysmart.com...

The greatest perversity of the European Union
www.samuelbrittan.co.uk...

Do we really need the European Union?
www.maturetimes.co.uk...

Almost 50,000 Concentration Camps For EU Dissidents - Even the UN are barred.....Why?

www.kxjb.nl...

EU Trying To Seize English Channel
bluecrabboulevard.com...

You have the right to remain in ignorance, but one day the truth will be staring you in the face, but unfortunately by then, it will be too late.........but continue to delude yourself that the EU is a good thing who only have your best interests at heart. I bet hitler wishes he was alive to day.....If he was, the conquest of Europe would be a walk in the park....

Originally posted by ian990003100
Magic mushroom:-

I think you will find that the British Public though against the gov...War of the roses

Oliver Cromwell

Protesting in the 60's (a way of fighting what people think is right)

Equality

Womens rights

For someone so enamored by British History and claims of Britain being destroyed, you have your history royally screwed up.

War of the Roses was not the "public" rising against the Government, but rather a war over the crown between the House of Lancaster and York.

Oliver Cromwell was a tyrant and did not rise up "for the people". The Civil War was between puritan Parliamentary forces and Royalist forces.

If you wanted examples of "people rising up", you couldn't have chosen two worse examples. There is a plethora of peasant rebellions to choose from (all of which were, in the end, put down), so why you chose the above two is a mystery. Perhaps mis education?

reply to post by kindred


Damn that's a lot of paranoid fantasy there. Luckily your avatar showed me you're proably not open to listening to facts in a rational debate, and put me off reading the rest

How can the EU know what's good for the UK and what's not? And there's a problem right there, they will deal with the UK not with Scotland, England, Wales and N Ireland. You cant do that with the UK, Each country if very different, we all have different laws and we all do things differently. Setting one rule for all country's hasn't always faired well in the UK, its one of the reasons we all have our own laws.

And the EU is by no means democratic, I for one have never voted on anything to do with the EU. They dictate to us in what we are to do, its never been any other way at least in the eyes of me and everyone I know.

dave420
Damn that's a lot of paranoid fantasy there. Luckily your avatar showed me you're proably not open to listening to facts in a rational debate, and put me off reading the rest

I guess some people will always be in denial when confronted with the truth. Everything I said is exactly how it is. Sorry no propaganda or paranoia, just the facts. Keep deluding yourself. Watch the video for documented proof.......

44 , we have had thousands of years of disaster as you put it and when a new idea comes along its denounced. Yes there is corruption and evil but we have to start somewhere and no one said it was going to be easy or done quickly but the alternative is just perpetual war, famine murder and mayhem.

Originally posted by magicmushroom
44 , we have had thousands of years of disaster as you put it and when a new idea comes along its denounced. Yes there is corruption and evil but we have to start somewhere and no one said it was going to be easy or done quickly but the alternative is just perpetual war, famine murder and mayhem.

What the devil are you on about mate? Stop being so self-loathing as a Briton and a human being. This country has achieved some damn impressive things, and dont you forget it!

Just because an idea is new doesnt mean it is a step in the right direction. Communism was a new idea when Marx invented it, but look how well that panned out.

Fact is, im quite happy to potter on under a minimal government that allows people to grow as individuals and be free. Im not so sure i would have that under the EU.

Point blank reasoning: My life will not be better under the EU monetarily, socially or otherwise. Hence i do not want my country to join the EU. Additionally i demand a referendum to voice this opinion. Cancel a referendum and you stifle my voice... and believe me, when society gets stifled, it will fight back eventually.

What's this us stuff anyway? Britain isn't a nation, it's an association of three and a half nations: England, Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland. I have nothing against an united Britain, just like I support an united Europe and ultimately an united world, but if you're going to argue against foreign governments 'illegally' controlling nations, don't stop at Europe, because the people of Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland certainly didn't choose to join the union under English rule.

Originally posted by Gofunk
What's this us stuff anyway? Britain isn't a nation, it's an association of three and a half nations: England, Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland. I have nothing against an united Britain, just like I support an united Europe and ultimately an united world, but if you're going to argue against foreign governments 'illegally' controlling nations, don't stop at Europe, because the people of Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland certainly didn't choose to join the union under English rule.

Actually i agree with you on this point. I think that the home nations should be split. Independence for Scotland, NI and Wales.

My reasoning? Im bloody sick of each Englishman having to pay £1500 a year to the Scots alone. They get free university education, the welsh get their NHS prescriptions paid for and we get the ruddy bill.


EDIT: May i also add that the reverse is in fact true today. Despite having the scottish government, scottish MPs are allowed to vote on matters which affect ONLY England. This is preposterous, and is a clear precursor to how the EU would rule England even in matters that affect only our country. This is the issue known as the "West Lothian question".

[edit on 11-3-2008 by 44soulslayer]

Originally posted by Gofunk
...I have nothing against an united Britain, just like I support an united Europe and ultimately an united world...

The thing I find wrong and to be honest scary about a united Europe and a united world is when that happens it just means less people will control more. Just the opposite of what freedom and democracy really is. Yes the world needs to unite but not under the control of one government, or culture.
We need to unite in our own differences and maintain our own popular sovereignty and cultures. This move to unite countries is nothing but a boon for the wealthy elite. It does nothing for the people but reduce what little power they have left even more. Do you want someone in Brussels, who has never been to where you live and know nothing about your needs and desires, making decisions that effect you and your community?

People who say we need smaller government are wrong, we need bigger government, we need huge government, in fact every single inhabitant of planet Earth should be a government, not just a few rich relatives. We should be our own government, you should be your own government. No one can govern you better than you. Throw the rich filthy scum out and take your lives back. How hypocritical of the establishment, hundreds of years of lost lives fighting to maintain independence, just thrown away when it suits them. The only war is class war!...

Carry on...

I have to admit that I am fairly mystified by all the enthusiasm for the EU.

I am mystified by why people think an additional layer of unaccountable, unelected bureaucratic authority is a good thing - looking around the world it seems to me that concentrations of power and authority are the problem, rather than the solution.

Still it's up to the people there to decide how they want to do things, not me.

Another thought: in here I notice that those supporting the EU do so with the notion that they are opposing nationalism.

Hey, I'm right there with you - nationalism is an archaic holdover from our evolutionary history as a species of hunter-gatherer clans. I'd be happy to see it go into history's dumpster along with racism, religious bigotry, slavery, poverty, war, illiteracy, etc...

However I think it is only an artifact of European history during the 20th century - namely two horrifying World Wars - that people have fallen under the misapprehension that another layer of authority, beyond the already horribly abused & excessive scope of national authority, is the answer to nationalism.

Personally I'd say that the greater number of people a government holds sway over, the more strictly it's powers must be limited.

Otherwise it seems more like an "out of the frying pan, into the fire" kind of situation to me

Id like to address the points made against nationalism if i may.

It is interesting to see that nationalism is being slated as a psychological relic of age old clans. My major problem with that links in to a governance issue. In a one world government of no nations, the voice of the majority would not be from the UK. Hence Asia would control affairs that would affect only the UK on the microeconomic level.

"Ahh", you say, "But that wont matter if there are no nations". Yes in geopolitical terms there would be no nations, but there would still be unique economic conditions for each region, each former nation and hell, even each city in the world. As such, when the majority of people do NOT live in the demes in question, why should the rest of the world decide what is best for the area you live in? Why should a man from Beijing decide whether or not to raise alcohol taxes, or reduce fuel duty? Similarly, why should a person from Europe dictate what is the best strategy to: conserve UK wildlife or increase recycling in the UK. For issues that affect only my country, i want only my countryment to have a say [see West Lothian question in my previous post for more info].

I wholeheartedly agree with the post above, that democracy should be far more devolved. I'd wager that my local council could do a damn sight better job than this mare of a national government.

Thus if each area needs its own microgovernment, then what is the harm in taking pride in the accomplishments of your area? If say, your community had a charity drive and raised a million pounds for water pipeline construction in Africa, would that not be something to be celebrated? The sort of overt nationalism youre thinking of is a far cry from modern, restrained nationalism practiced in most countries today.

Thanks for your post, good logic used mate

[edit on 12-3-2008 by 44soulslayer]

reply to post by Gofunk


Again, some more half-baked lies about British history. What do they teach you kids?

Scotland DID ask to join the Union, in 1707 in fact. They bankrupted themselves trying to build a colonial empire and came begging for English help. They also have invaded England more times than England invaded them and also with European allies in attempts to seize the English crown.

NI is also a place that vehemently wants to remain British. The vast majority of the population is loyalist. Also, the British Army originally moved in to NI during the 70's in order to protect REPUBLICAN CATHOLICS from Protestant Loyalists. But, the Irish being the Irish, they turned on the soldiers and started 30 years of pain.

Wales has never been a sovereign country, so thats just a moot point about them wanting "independence again", as they never had it before.

Please, get you facts right before spouting such dismal crap.

reply to post by stumason


Maybe you should read up on your own facts as well, Scotts were hardly begging to join a union with England, There were actually mass protests against it, hundreds of petitions to parliament. If the Scottish government had actually acted on behalf of what the Scottish people wanted it would be very likely Scotland would not have signed the Act of Union on 1707

reply to post by stumason


'fraid to have to correct you mate, but after lecturing everyone i think you need a good dose of your own medicine

en.wikipedia.org...

reply to post by 44soulslayer


Hate to have to point out that your link doesn't actually prove bugger all.

Please provide proof that Wales was ever a sovereign country.

Changing how the law operates between two regions does not a country make. Prior to the English invasion of the land now known as Wales, it was never a unified sovereign country.

There was never a Welsh Government, Crown, King, Lord or Prince. There was never a country called Wales. If anything, it was a collection of small feudal regions, each independent of each other.

The Welsh people aren't even really distinct from any other people's within the UK. 67% of the entire UK population today can be traced back to the original pre-Roman society, genetically. The only difference between "English" and "Welsh" is language, which is largely as a result of Roman influence in what is now England and them having very little influence in what is now Wales.

As for the chappy who insists that Scotland didn't ask to join, utter bollocks. Whether there were protests or not by ordinary Scots, that's by the by, the Scottish Government, after bankrupting itself during the Darien Scheme trying to make itself a colonial power, voted on the Act of Union requesting a formal Unification with England.

The Scottish actually inherited the English crown in 1603 when King James VI of Scotland inherited the Crown from his cousin, Queen Elizabeth I of England.

If anything, the Scottish were in the driving seat with regards to the eventual Union of the Kingdoms, so how one can turn around and blame the English for it is beyond me.

I didn't blame the English for anything, what I said was the Scottish people begged for nothing. I blame the Scottish government for not listening to its people, though I have no problem with the union.

The point is the Scottish government ignored the people then and the British government are ignoring the people now.

I want them to listen to what i have to say and take into consideration what I want for Scotland and the UK as a whole.

Apparently we are already a part of the EU however I have yet to see any evidence that what British citizens want is even expressed to the EU, certainly ive never been asked what I want in the EU.

And my original point stands, with the EU they only see the UK, not Scotland, England and Wales regardless of the fact that we all do things very differently and what may be good for England probably isn't good for Scotland and Wales.

reply to post by Edn


Does the Scottish Government listen to those in the Shetlands or Orkneys? Or are the needs of this in the Lowlands the same as the Highlands? does the Welsh Government listen to the needs of those in the North or the Valleys? Does ANYONE listen to the concerns of the English?

All this nationalism annoys me. Especially when Scots bitch and whine about the "evil" English, when the Scots have had a very easy ride thanks to the Union and benefit to the tune of an EXTRA £1500 per head in Government spending when compared to England, leading to your free Uni and prescriptions, whereas we have to pay for it all. Look into the Barnett Formula

On top of that, Scottish MP's can vote on matters that affect only England and Wales, yet we cannot do the same. For example, the Higher Education Act, which brought in tuition fees for England and Wales was only passed with a slim majority, provided by Scottish MP's no less, who then subsequently went back to Edinburgh to vote against it for Scotland.

Yet somehow, the "English" steal you oil money and oppress the Scottish as evil invaders, apparently.

We've done more as part of the Union than we could have done apart, yet the SNP and their ilk portray England as the land of evil conquerors and that Scotland would be the land of Milk and Honey if it weren't for us.

Newsflash: Without England, you'd soon find that you wouldn't be having such an easy ride as you do now. I'd like to see how the SNP plan to maintain the level of spending without English tax revenue heading North. Considering the high levels of unemployment in Scotland, combined with the health care and Education spending you guy's have, an independent Scotland would very soon be a bankrupt Scotland.

Back to where it all began, I suppose.......