British ratification of EU treaty- a loss of freedom

Ian, if you dont like it here then please leave no one is stopping you. And the British people have never fought against the Goverment as you put it. Being part of the EU has made it easier for the average person to live and work where they like without restriction, by definition we are European like it or not.

Boundaries and borders are man made and in a modern and developing world there is no requirement for them any more. What are you scared of that you hate the idea of a unified Europe.

Magic mushroom:-

I think you will find that the British Public though against the gov...War of the roses

Oliver Cromwell

Protesting in the 60's (a way of fighting what people think is right)

Equality

Womens rights

Ian you made it sound like we have had a revolution when we have not. And people can still demonstrate today irrespective of the ruling set up. people everywhere in any time have always felt they they get a raw deal but that does not stop then taking action, EU or a world Goverment will not prevent people speaking out so what are you worried about. Would you rather live in isolation and ignorance?

Oh you have made me so so mad.

Scared...

My Grandad died so that this great country could be free.....

If your so happy with joining Europe i have heard that poland have got room

Check your arguments before you start attacking.

A United Europe is depicted in the bible! This is not a good thing! This ideology has stemmed from nazi germany and guess what it is still the germans pulling the strings.

We supported that country with money and knowledge so they could rebuild....
Do you realise how many people died for our freedom?

Im watching this country get sold off to the highest bidder. It's being bled dry by immigrants (no offence) sending money home... The education system is failing... the NHS is collapsing because it isn't doing the Job it was supposed to do!

When the NHS was devised do you honestly think that they thought they were going to do Boob jobs and sex changes?

getting off this island isn't easy! Have you ever tried?

We made lots of mistakes over the years and now we have to suffer and my daughter will suffer and my grand children will suffer.

Once the Americans joined us In WWII we should have conquered Germany and took it Under British rule!

We messed up with the first gulf so much so we had to go back nigh on 10 years later to sort the problem!

I could go on and on

But it comes to something when the working class can't go to the shop for a bottle of milk without gangs of hooded teens causing trouble! and i dont even live in a rough area...

We have a very multicultural society and i don't mind at all hey were all brothers... but when a religion starts spouting about being peaceful yet pimp off our girls and get them hooked on drugs and abuse our way of life and believe me i know this first hand...the country is a mess OPEN YOUR EYES

Ian, calm down, plenty of my family died fighting in both world wars and when I'm in France or Belgium I go to pay my respects. The fact is we cannot live in the past we have to move on otherwise we do not evolve its as simple as that and again who cares who had the plan. The very reason we fight wars is because or the things you want to preserve.

Life changes end of what your suggesting is to go backwards, what has happened in the past has no bearing on the future you need to learn that. And actuaslly its France I prefer and hopefully soon I will be buying a house there, I love the French, Germans as well as my wife is from German stock.

Ian every country has its problems, the Uk is still undergoing the change from the end of the Empire. What have hoodies on the streets got to do with the EU. And as for the working man he is better off now like never before.

I think you are looking at this from the wrong perspective and listening to a biased news media. the UK does have social problems but that has nothing to do with imigrants or the EU. Many would like to point the finger at certain groups but its not the truth.

Take young people yes there are some scumbags out there but for every 1 there is a hundred good kids but no one mentions them. Then again we have to ask ourselves why do we have these scumbags and who is to blame. But most of all in pointing out these issues what are you doing to change them. Its alright for people to sit and moan and bitch but what about doing something about it.

Ian i think you are reading into things too much particularly that Bible prophecy.

I think in many ways europe coming togeather is a good thing. The current climate does not favour the countries that try to go it alone. You should be more angry about our MPs lying to us, that we would be allowed to vote on anything that gives away any more of our self governance to the EU.

The problem with the EU is, whom are they accountable to?

If apparently i and you are Europeans, even thou i don't feel European, then why are these Euro MP's and ministers not accountable to either of us Europeans?

This is the reason why i personally, reject the idea of making the EU any more credible as a governing entity than it already is.

reply to post by 44soulslayer


I feel for you. I hope the North American Union never makes its way here. Be a shame. Now I may be against a great deal of policies in britian, but you guys should still retain your independence. Give you the ability to do what you want.

When are people going to realise its one World one people. most of the wars that are fought are over land and resources, ignorance and racism. If unification removes that its got to be better for all and maybe in the long term that's what required to go to the next level.

How can a waring group of nations ever expect to progress, evolution has to take its course or we are doomed to failure.

reply to post by grimreaper797


An united Europe would be equivalent to the USA, not a North American union. Not that a North American union would be bad.

Fight the power! Fight Progression! Fight freedom! Let's keep ourselves locked behind arbitrary meaningless borders. Just imagine, NWO! Can you believe the cheek of our governments? Actually trying to extend our freedom, trade freely, work where we like, and improve cooperation. How dare they! They're eroding our freedom by allowing us to move around freely! They're going to take over the world by uniting us! We must unite with our brothers in other countries and fight the corrupt governments that are trying to unite us with our brothers in other countries!

I find it ironic that there are so many right-wing xenophobes on a conspiricy site.

Gofunk, well stated I think you have hit the proverbial nail on the head.

In a ideal world I'm all for a one world order. It would be great if humanity was united under one government and one religion or even no religion, but that's a pipe dream. As long as we allow ourselves to be governed by those in power who are blatantly corrupt, then the only thing that awaits us will be our worst nightmare come true. Time is running out....

Is the EU treaty in our best interests? I suggest you do some research on a charity organization called "COMMON PURPOSE." What you will find might disturb you....?

A good place to start, is their homepage.

www.commonpurpose.org.uk...

Then watch this video.......Common Purpose.....
video.google.co.uk...

Discretionary Powers for EU Parliament President
www.youtube.com...

The EU is full of fascists - check out the links.

www.iht.com...
news.bbc.co.uk...
secretperson.wordpress.com...
blogs.telegraph.co.uk...

EU deception on GM foods
www.guardian.co.uk...

The EU is not democratic, anyone who thinks otherwise, hasn't been doing their homework.....






[edit on 9-3-2008 by kindred]

Originally posted by Freelancer
reply to post by 44soulslayer

 

While I do sympathies with what you are saying, looking down the road further I feel compelled to say that the unity of countries is a 'must' if we are to secure 'true' peace on this planet. Yes I am fully aware of the current events taking place in the world today and the feelings of lost independence that such changes will impose on us. However,

Let us suppose that we had been born say, 200 years from now, in a world where their were no 'man-made' countries, just ONE country, ONE planet. Where as students, we are taught that 200 years previously, that the world was in turmoil and that people of that time still believed in their artificial man-made boundaries that made them separate entities from their neighbours. Might our way of thinking be different then?

Is not the transitions we face today worth a better future for our children's, children? The deceit and lies by our respective 'governments' will not go away over night, they will no doubt continue to plague and hinder the growth of mankind, but one day they will get it right, that I am sure of.

I agree wholeheartedly. A one world non-government is the ultimate goal, but we are 1000 years away from it at the moment.

We must not sacrifice the progress made by more developed countries to bring up others. Natural law will even things out in the end, and only then can we have peace.

Originally posted by Gofunk
Have you forgotten things like the European Convention on Human Rights? When the EU imposes treaties on member nations it's generally to protect or improve the freedom and welfare of it's people, and when nations reject treaties or parts of treaties it's generally to protect the state at the cost of the citizens of that country.

Have you forgotten that the very law you mention is also used by criminals to justify leniency in extremis? Look at our prisons at the moment, nothing but 3* hotels!

The rest of your post deals with railing against nationalism. I ask where would we be without nationalism? Want to see undemarked borders at their best- go to somalia, eritrea and ethiopia. Observe what a lack of national definition and more importantly a lack of defined, defensible borders.

Read about the psychological phenomena known as "Defensible space". Without any region to call their own, people will implode and become diffident about their environment. They will litter, pollute and destroy all around them because you know what? It doesnt matter... it isnt theirs.

A nation on the other hand is a group of people who collectively own a region, in which they take pride and work hard to maintain, grow and develop.

Its the classic example of anarchy versus order, and has been answered more times in history than I'd care to venture.

All greatness comes from civilizations... all greatness. I challenge you to prove otherwise!

Originally posted by Gofunk
reply to post by robert204

 

An united Europe would be equivalent to the US, not pan-America, or have you forgotten your own history?

Actually Robert is quite right on this issue. A united Europe is a direct mirror of what a pan-American state would look like. Of course im basing this entirely on linguistics.

To be honest i have had enough!

Im sick of liberal people and liberal views!

im not against a united world and im not racist! ( nobody has implied i am i know but what i say next cound be taken that way)

I Feel that we as a nation should be leading the way not cowtailing to german bueracracy!

for goodness sake the germans and french even the americans come here to learn in our armed forces!

the day of the bullet and war should have been buried a long time ago! for god sake we haven't learnt anything! we have had our time and we can't learn!

Im totally against the constitution of the EU i have read it!

Have you?

To unite the world we should be actively seeking to reduce power and get rid of fuedlism!

why as a citizen of this world can i not move my family freely within it!

Because of religion...p[ower....greed and the fact that many human beings are that norrow minded they cant see past the end of their own nose!

Africa suffers from famine and drought....we have the technilogical expertise to eradicate this! will we...the answer is no because apparently we need them to suffer!

We built (we being western world) Suez canal, panama canal!

I say lets dig for africa and dig mighty rivers from the coast to the mainland and give the africans a chance!

I am disgusted in humans and the way we behave towards each other! we are still very much neandeful on a whole!

I am venting however i will talk u2u or even post a thread on my thoughts evventually!

I have recently found out my wife is pregnant and all i see is the world hating on each other!

I am bringing another child in to a selfish world!

The EU is germany trying to get themselves aout of the past!

those who forget the past are condemned to repeat it!

i appreciate all your opinions and i empathise and agree with some of it. if for instance spain was the governing force behind the eu i may have a diffrent view however it's germany and don't you ever ever forget it!

Originally posted by magicmushroom
Ian, if you dont like it here then please leave no one is stopping you.

So when your home is being swamped by uninvited guests, you up sticks and leave?

Wow, what an attitude our education system has imparted in you! Dont fight for the right to control your own destiny, just take it lying down(!)

Mushroom my friend, i jest. But seriously i know you are trying to be liberal and inclusive and have a holistic approach. I understand where you are coming from, and i know that eventually you will see otherwise.

Just ask yourself how will your own situation change if Britain joins the EU? You get to travel to other countries more easily? Or work there more easily?
Is that it?? Well :

a) You could always travel easily to other countries. I doubt a 15 minute border check would be such a massive inconvenience.

b) Britain is clearly the most desirable place to work in europe. I think thats evidenced by the massive influx of eastern europeans (which i have no problem with in principle, i just think they should either pay tax to use the NHS or not pay tax and not get NHS treatment).

These "benefits" are juxtaposed by what we stand to lose:

1. The power to decide on 57 issues of home policy. These are only issues concerning our island nation and NONE of the concern of other european nations. A comparably example is if Mexico were to run the department of defence of the USA.

2. UN permanent security council seat : Europe could take our seat to prevent us from Vetoing any declaration of war as part of the UN, or to declare war against our interests.


Hmm freedom of travel and work versus national security and home affairs... seems like a fair tradeoff to me(!)

reply to post by ian990003100


I concur.

My point was : PRAGMATISM

Liberals think they known everything and they can mend the world with taxes and kind words. Their hearts beat but their minds do not see!

The only way we can usher in the new dawn is to advance, each man at his own pace, each nation at its own pace. Ramming together different cultures and people of different developmental status is a recipe for disaster.

Oh and before you call me a xenophobic racist scumbag, please know that I myself am an immigrant (indian) to this country, but that i now feel it is my home.

I must say, i think this is why i feel so strongly about Britain. Its because i know how much there is to lose and i do not take this country's merits for granted as British born liberals seem to.

thank you



Here here

reply to post by Gofunk


Ill engage in a one world government when you all stop being socialists and adopt American Ideals with a constitutioanl republic. See the problem here?

Everyone can agree we all have our own government in mind. We all want our government to do or not do certain things. Fact is, I am a libertarian. There are people out there who are hardcore statist. We can not live under the same government. It is not possible. There are communists out there. We cannot live under the same government. That is the simple fact.

This is the United States, we have a certain way of doing things, and certain idea about what government is there for. Lot of other people from a great many other countries don't feel that way. Now I don't care if they don't agree, but if you try to shove us under 1 government, one of us is going to be very unhappy with it and you can bet your ass somebody will end up starting a revolution.

Maybe when the human race finds the perfect political system and the perfect way of doing things where everyone agrees it is the right way to do things, that will change. Until then, it will never happen. One government just creates civil war.