The Early Signs of Public Unrest and Social Chaos?

reply to post by Apsaroke


Believe it or not, I think that if it came to civil war (which is a bit of a stretch- I don't see America fighting itself so much as disassociating as a matter of course if the stresses on our nation should ever become so monsterous as to overwhelm the federal government) we'd be able to handle our government.

A guerilla action by an educated, tech-savvy population with ready access to fairly sophisticated equipment would be quite something to study for many decades after it happened.

The military simply isn't big enough to lock down a nation like America. They'd have to assert control by controlling the flow of commerce, utilities, and information.

That leaves the people quite a bit of freedom to fight- but not enough to mass forces. So an American civil war, assuming the military is not fractured by the dispute, becomes a very sophisticated conflict that depends on logistics, intelligence, and propaganda far more than on attrition or control of territory. To a certain extent think WWII resistance movements with cooler toys.

I could make the argument for either side winning. It depends on how much damage either side is willing to do to this nation in order to control it.

As one who studies and loves history, you guys are making me cringe with these posts

Progressing? During the 60s? lol HARDLY.
After WW2 we were progressing. During the 60s we were regressing and regressing FAST. Nearly spiraling out of control. That "unity" didn't happen until a few people were assassinated (and even then progress was slow - in fact some of the issues that plagued us then still plague us now).


Vega

Things have the potential to get worse this time.

What specifically are you basing this on?

Edit: And was there ever a time when that potential actually left us?

We no longer have a super-power enemy to keep the majority united.

Radical Islam has the same potential as communism (depending on how the PTB play it)

Our criminals and our failed humans are not just a bunch of home-grown losers smoking home grown depressants this time- instead we've got foreign criminal organizations dealing in meth and crack- these are not the kind of people who hold a concert to show that they are angry, and if they show up in Sacramento with guns, the police will not have to ask whether or not the guns are loaded

Not sure I understand what you're saying?
Foreign gangs (including the mafias) were extremely active back then.
Maybe I'm missing something
Our home grown losers then were sending BOMBS to people.


Marg

Right now people are too afraid to do anything to bring change anymore in this nation.

What are you basing this on?
The biggest protests in US history have happened within the last few years.

Have you seen youtube? MORE people are speaking out and reaching an even wider audience.


Witness

During the three decades after we made real change in this country, voting rights, greater rights for all.

You are 100% correct. Why was that? Because we had effective leadership and a willingness to change.
There is NOTHING George Bush has done that can't be undone by the next president (if that president is a good and effective leader). And of course people want change - as these presidential primaries have shown.


[edit on 4-3-2008 by ThatsJustWeird]

reply to post by Gools


Great thread, Gools! I'm an avid follower of your threads. Here is the latest attempt by the Fed and Bernake to stem the tide:

Fed Chief Urges Breaks for Some Borrowers

WASHINGTON — The chairman of the Federal Reserve, Ben S. Bernanke, urged mortgage lenders and investors on Tuesday to reduce the principal on loans for many people whose homes are no longer worth as much as the amount they still have to repay.

Noting that delinquency and foreclosure rates have soared over the last year, and that housing prices have not stopped falling, the Fed chairman warned that efforts by the government and by industry to prevent foreclosures had not gone far enough.

“Although lenders and servicers have scaled up their efforts and adopted a wide variety of loss mitigation techniques, more can , and should, be done,” Mr. Bernanke said in a speech to a conference of community bankers in Florida.

That is something that I suggested late last year in one of your threads. It only makes sense that borrowers would benefit from an sort of bailout scheme devised by the government and the Fed. Previously, schemes only benefited the banks. At any rate, for Bernake to make a call like this, we know that things are very bad economically for a large percentage of the population. Companies and the wealthy are continuing to make nothing but money, but the middle-class is screeching to a deadly halt.

Folks might want to revisit the French Revolution. That's the blueprint for what appears to be in the earliest stages today. I'm afraid that the only way to stem the current tide is to offer more than reduced principal payments and interest rates. If the banks really want to squelch this they should forgive loans on the weakest and most devalued properties. I don't believe that would ever happen but it would increase moral and improve future prospects among borrowers, and it would also help to repair the image of the banks. Not likely to happen but it is a way out.

[edit on 4-3-2008 by Areal51]

reply to post by The Vagabond


Great points, Vagabond. I do agree that there will be those taking up arms and heading into the conflict (should it come into being). My doubt lies not in some people trying to do something...but rather the effectiveness and in the actual scale of such an event.

If we compare the environmental factors from our last civil war (and even revolutionary war) to what we have today, one has to question whether the number of people that would be required for an effective civil war defination (as opposed to being labeled as pockets of resistence) have the same environmental conditioning as what people in the past had?

In the very early days of our history, this countries population was comprised of immigrants who had the instestinal fortitude to know and accept the risks that true freedom brought. They lived in a day and age where every day was literally a struggle for life..against those who would take thier life, against nature and the elements, etc. It was their instestinal fortitude and the character makeup that forged this country and sent them westward into hostile territory, etc. In the civil war, you were provided a population who was still in somewhat close proximity to the generations of individuals who fought for the independane of this country and were still fueled by such a passion that they could clearly draw sides and pick up arms to support their viewpoints.

Now, we have today's generation...where all modern conveniences lay before us. We have a very "lazy" population who is no longer in touch with the struggle of surivial aside from economics. Our worst battles are against each other in the form of words over petty differences of doctrine, political viewpoints, moral issues, etc. The average law-abiding American has never picked up a gun against another human being nor have they been faced with any semblance of the horror of war. Our government ensures that Americans do not have to see it's images. (IE caskets of soldiers being brought home) Quite simply, American's today are slaves to the conveniences that they have and I regularly see the compromises they make in order to keep those conveniences (IE supporting the patriot act, etc)

We also have to consider the millions of poeple who truly would not be able to fend for themselves. How many know how to garden, live off the land, build shelter, etc? These are lost "arts" that are lost to the generations who successfully brought us revolution and without that knowlege, one has to wonder how successful a revolution could truly be?

I do hope you're right. I do truly hope that there is still a vein in all americans that carries the blood of revolutionists. I'm just no convinced that it is there.

I sure hope not, do you think we can just have a civil war and the rest of the world will stand idly by and congratulate the winner?????? Any significant gains by an insurgency or counter govt forces will result in the missiles crossing the pole, UN troops on our soil, the container ships will be filled with Chinese soldiers, or some other scenario infinitely more bleak than what we are facing here now. So, don't be a fool and expect a Hollywood civil war cause it ain't gonna happen. Unless it's a WORLDWIDE civil war, that cripples ALL who are in power to intervene, there's just no way it can work.

reply to post by Areal51


I have been scratching my head over the greed of 30% interest rates banks now demand on credit. People default right and left because the interest is unbearable for most. And why not give home owners a bit of breathing room? It seems that the mortgage companies suffer greater losses when people default, the legal cost of repoing a house is high and then it is doubtful that an auction will help recover what is owed.

It seems we are selling off our country to China.

www.atimes.com...

Originally posted by ThatsJustWeird
As one who studies and loves history, you guys are making me cringe with these posts

I have the same credentials you have named here, and am cringing in the opposite direction.

That time of alleged regression began with a record tax cut, saw college enrollments in the US soaring, unemployment consistently falling, and put us in such good economic position that we could afford to undertake the Great Society programs. The government also began funding the development of what eventually became the internet at the time. Perhaps you are thinking of the 70s. I can see how they might kind of run together for you as one big blur, if you were there (that's why I know so much about them- I don't have to contend with the effects of having actually lived in that culture, and no, the irony is not lost on me).

That "unity" didn't happen until a few people were assassinated (and even then progress was slow - in fact some of the issues that plagued us then still plague us now).

Incorrect. National defense and patriotic initiatives were unifying issues at that point in the coldwar, before JFK was shot. We elected the man on the alleged missile gap and rallied around him to step up the space race, and that was quite obviously before he was killed.


Considerably more to follow, but I have somewhere to be now.

reply to post by ThatsJustWeird


So sad . . . protesting behind a computer screen in the comfort of your home.

That is hardly a protest of masses showing a government how a nation is suppose to work for the people, in number is the power, not behind a computer screen.

Reading many post here I see that is a lot of people that wants change, but reading some others it seems that no wonder this government has nothing to fear about the people as long as protesters are not in the streets but behind closed doors and behind computer screens.

And that is exactly how they want it.

reply to post by Gools


Hey Gools, nice thread. I agree, it seems we're seeing more and more signs, and they're not good.

I was wondering if you've seen this yet?

From: Blacklistednews.com
The Fed Releases Crisis Preparedness Video
blacklistednews.com...

Let me throw in my two cents here. I also think that things have the potential to get much worse than in the '60s or even in the 1930s with the Great Depression.

For example, back then people used to have savings; now, savings have been negative for quite some time.

We didn't have trillions of increasingly worthless dollars in the hands of foreigners, who are now starting to buy up our domestic assets -- companies, roads, what have you.

We didn't have two-income families that, even though both parents are working, are already stretched to the financial limit.

We also hadn't outsourced entire industries to our Asian friends.

So yes, I think this time around it's going to be worse.

And by the way, I think the PTB have already foreseen civil unrest -- why else would they have recently passed the domestic terrorism law that cracks down on anyone who commits, incites, supports or even suggests "ideological movtivated acts of violence" which includes those motivated by anger toward the US government?

[edit on 4-3-2008 by sylvie]

reply to post by The Vagabond

I'm talking about America as a whole, not certain segments of the society. And I'm mainly talking about our society and social issues. And a lot of that prosperity (economic wise) was momentum from post WW2. Our debt was still in the hundreds of billions (and strongly increased after those programs you mentioned. We didn't care about the cost then, but we're still paying for them now)

Sure you can include the 70s, as this stuff didn't really start to come to a head until the mid and late 60s.

National defense and patriotic initiatives were unifying issues at that point in the coldwar, before JFK was shot.

Sure, unifying issues in theory and talk. It wasn't until after he was shot that they became reality or gained momentum. Also, I wasn't just talking about JFK....


Anyway,
How many people have been killed in anti war protest then compared to now?
How many people have been killed just trying to drink out of a certain water fountain then compared to now?
There were about 45 riots in the '60s here in the US. Since we're including the '70s (I'll only go up to '75), we had 54. In the past 15 years we've had 14 (and this is including minor brawls that barely made local news, lol).
And people are saying this is bad?? Again...short term memories.



Marg, you missed the first part of my quote....about actual protests.
And you are right about people being in the COMFORT of their home. And now you can go outside that home without people trying to hurt or kill you because you're a minority or because you support a war.

[edit on 4-3-2008 by ThatsJustWeird]

reply to post by ThatsJustWeird
I think you are missing the point of this thread. It was stated as the early signs, meaning the beginning. You are stating facts on an era that has already gone thru the whole process. This is yet to play out.

reply to post by ThatsJustWeird


No short term memory here. I have attended numerous protests and there is a lot of video on youtube documenting what mainstream media has been paid not to. I provide a link below that may be of interest.

Yes we did have incredible obstacles to overcome in the 60's and 70's, but the one thing we all had were freedoms to bring about change. By the time the nineties rolled around it seemed we could begin to enjoy much of the progress brought about by those who dedicated time, resources, injurey and death for during the decades before. Just as I began to feel secure for my young family...then along comes Bush.

People are being tassered to death in airports, arrested and held without charges. Violence is breaking out in airplanes waiting on runways because the military has to finish laying chemtrails. Homlessness is up, poverty is up. Do you have health coverage? Been to a charity emergency room lately.

Our government, spies on us, lies to us, robs us, and if you visit any chemtrail thread or the Crystal City Urban Shield thread you'll see we are also being gased. Hail Bush

www.youtube.com...

I think you are missing the point of this thread. It was stated as the early signs, meaning the beginning. You are stating facts on an era that has already gone thru the whole process. This is yet to play out.

Not at all. My initial response was to the claims that a civil war in this day and age was inevitable or that things have never been this bad. My point was that they have been this bad and much worse, yet we didn't go to war with each other because of it.
And you're right, this has yet to play out. But each time is has played out in the past, we became a stronger nation because of it. The Bush presidency has clouded people's perceptions of reality is seems.


Witness, I was going to reply, but I thought you were being serious in this thread....
Is that your theory? This is all about us being gassed by chemtrails?

reply to post by psychedeliack

I mean, the people could stand up and fight, but seriously, wouldn't they be fighting the military?

You're assuming the military rank and file would support the government.
But they are citizens just like anyone else, and a lot of them have far more personal reasons to hate our current leadership than you or I.

My current crop of drinking buddies includes a couple USMC two-tour Iraq veterans - they just love Bush, the Republicans, and the .gov, let me tell you

reply to post by ThatsJustWeird


There was a whole lot more than chemtrails in my last post.

Originally posted by ThatsJustWeird
Not to mention that the country was JUST then getting BASIC civil rights for everyone. Voter fraud now? Oh Please. How about not having the right to vote at all.

Do you know what a non-violent drug felony is?
Do you realize that most people with non-violent drug felonies in the US are black?
Do you realize that felony convictions mean you cannot vote?

How about not having that right to vote at all....

www.sentencingproject.org...

• An estimated 5.3 million Americans, or one in forty-one adults, have currently or permanently lost
their voting rights as a result of a felony conviction.
• 1.4 million African American men, or 13% of black men, are disenfranchised, a rate seven times the
national average.

Basic civil rights for everyone... except black men.

White man caught with some grass.... good lawyer and a misdemeanour charge...walks

Black man caught with grass; felony, incarceration, loss of voting right, felony record means off to the "Action Labor" government work camp... $40/day slave.

Sri Oracle


[edit on 4-3-2008 by Sri Oracle]

I think we would see an overall collapse of the system .I do think that if it all comes down there may be open fighting in the streets against military style forces. Think along the line sof Blackwater or some foreign forces. The National Guard woudl just stand down, pack up, go home, and guard their hometowns. Maybe too the regular army.

The bulk of the fighting would be between people trying to take what others have and those trying to hold on to what they have.

We could very well be sitting on the edge of an absolute collpase of the modern fiancial system. When the money dries up and goods become scarce what will happen?

The public is slowly starting to see the System for the fraud it is and just like a train picking up speed it just get's faster and faster.

And to the other poster, death at the hands of law enforcemnt has never been higher than it has been in this decade. Reported cases of police brutality have never been higher than it has been this decade. Foreclosure rates are as high now as they ever were in the Great Depression and much higher than they ever were in th e60's and even the 70's.

But at least we can use any water fountain we want so it must be better.

My typing sucks. That's easier than fixing my spelling.
[edit on 4-3-2008 by Tinhatman]

[edit on 4-3-2008 by Tinhatman]

reply to post by ThatsJustWeird


It seems things have not changed all that much after all

www.democracynow.org...

Sri and Witness
The last you quys were replying to or quoting me, but I'm not sure why...



That is exactly right Sri and it is absolutely ridiculous. This "superpwer" of a country still has a LONG way to go, especially when it comes to race relations and discrimination. We are an embarrasment (well, we would be if this stuff wasn't also prevelent worldwide.)
But back then you didn't even have to be locked up to not have the right to vote which was my only point. We turned people away from voting simply because of the color of their skin (or gender). Americans violently forced treated fellow human beings as sub humans.


Witness, yeah...
That's part of what I was telling Marg though. People still do go out and protest. People still care. People still want change. That's a good thing.