Heaven is a PLANET!

Originally posted by jimmyjackblack
Firstly, I am not calling anyone a heritic.

I know you haven't called anyone a heretic *sigh.

My question is how do we consider this Bible then?

What you have done Thurisaz is taken one man's minor notation

Have you got this Bible? It is not some minor notation. Even the beginning notes on Genesis are exceptional. Gap Theories etc = very logical.

It specifically states Heaven is a Planet and then list numerous fallacies about Heaven. It really is intriguing, thought provoking!

(which for some reason I'm always having to pee).

Great analogy by the way and funny too!

Please, do better research before drawing such a conclusion.

Is not a discussion about this research? I was about this info and then I was about reading this because I had always been

I was happy to read the conclusions in the notes and to see how those notes were derived. I also felt it was the most logical approach I have ever read.

try to imagine what it will be like without stars and without a sea, man, that's some crazy stuff eh?

Dake Bible goes into this too. Really fascinating stuff. Provides reasons why we can't see certain things.

Here is a discussion of the Gap Theories he includes in the notes, I feel that this pushes the envelope. Makes us think. Gives us something a little more logical to go with. I am all for the rational approach!

Dake Gap Theory

I am not discounting realms. But, when I look up at the night sky, I don't see realms, I see stars, a moon and Planets (depending on the transition of them of course)

cheers





[edit on 2-3-2008 by Thurisaz]

[edit on 2-3-2008 by Thurisaz]

Sadly, I believe you do indeed have a tainted Bible. The Dakes Gap Theory, well have you ever read a headline in a newspaper and then read the story? Well you know that the headline and the story are not two seperate stories, but the same thing, the headline outlines the contents inside the story, the story it's self is the details. Same goes with the writer of Genisis (I think Noah wrote it because the writting style is different from exodos). It first gives you a much broader story and then it goes into detail, it retails the same story, but detailing different aspects. I hope you understand what I'm saying, cause I'm not the best at wording things. Now honestly a just cause it's a Christian book store does not mean that they never carry fishy stuff, I can go into any bookstore and find things that don't line up with the bible or misinterpret it. I'm wondering what does the Dake Bible say about Yeshua, His death and resurection? I'd also like to know what it does say about the millenial riegn.

reply to post by jimmyjackblack

God was talking to Jesus and the holy spirit? I did not know that. Thanks for the clarification.

Regarding versions of the bible, on the Ethereal Library site
found here:
www.ccel.org...

There is much information contained in this site on the Canon changes and the Seven Ecumenical Councils.
Even considering the huge amount of data available, under Cannon XXIV, there is still this rule of thumb that nothing be read in church besides the Canonical Scripture. Therefore, some books have just been left out like the Book of Enoch and many others.

Also, if one was to dabble in reading "The Urantia Book", it states that no mortal can see God and live. It does have some overtones that parallel the canonical Bible versions most of us use, however, indeed the original Biblical texts may vary in interpretation and definition of translated words and other parabelistic meanings etc..., but I think in most all of these Scriptures and other literature, the main point that seems to confront what these are trying to teach us boils down to showing us that we should strive towards Godliness, living our lives in pursuit of attaining spiritual perfection in ourselves as we can in this physical body and earthly realm as God is perfection, wanting us this way in his image, and being with him as our destination.

When attempting to understand how, as the Alpha and Omega, God is a living entity without beginning and without end, it is something so hard to comprehend, that even the notion of time seems basic whether linear or in other form. The only way I can visualize God as the one living creator, God of gods, with no beginning and no ending in thought is not by linear means, as we calculate time and immortality through procreation, but rather by circular means.

This still leaves the most notorious enigma of all to ponder. What is so puzzling is that if, as a circle has no beginning or ending, this definition can be conceived of more reasonably in mind and much less exhaustingly than conceiving of it as unimaginable, how then is this circle become? *(Note the phrasing). What is the essence of existence?

Heaven might be planet X which the Japanese have "discovered" in theory based on gravitational studies. I am writing more so as to not have my comments banned for being too short. Peace. Love. and Happiness. Wherever you can find it.

originallypostedbydeenamarie53

Aha, I missed this before....the DAKE bible.
This explains all the stridency I've been seeing here.

Thurisaz, Ive been made a foe of deenamarie53 too. Obvious this person cant take any other views and only their beliefs are true!



fixed quote



[edit on 2/3/08 by masqua]

Originally posted by kyred
Heaven might be planet X which the Japanese have "discovered" in theory based on gravitational studies.

Interesting as I have just read some info re Planet X:

Planet Nibiru (Ne.Bi.Ru) is known by many names, such as: Planet X, The Twelfth Planet, Marduk, Paradise, "Heaven" and the "Kingdom of the Heavens" and etc. in various cultures. Source

Greek Mythology:

Hermes (Mercury); Aphrodite (Venus); Gea (Mother Earth); Ares (Mars); Zeus (Jupiter); Cronus (Saturn); Apollo (Sun) and Uranus; Poseidon (Neptune); Hades (Pluto) and Diana (Moon)

Why have modern scholars overlooked the significance of theories of myth?

The seriousness of this misunderstanding has been fatal to scholars’ understanding of the Greek myths. By making the journeys of the gods begin and end in the clouds, they have dismissed, at a stroke, the idea of cataclysms, and invented, instead, a completely new myth involving weather-gods. THE GREEK MYTHS

NB Because the Exploded Planet was, by nature, invisible, ancient peoples worshipped it by means of visible symbols (such as the Sun, Moon and stars) and thereby sowed the seeds for later confusion. Nevertheless, the myth-makers made sure that the ‘true story’ of the Exploded Planet would never be forgotten. It shows through, for example, in the belief in Heaven as an Earth-like planet (particularly evident in Egyptian tombs), and in the description of Heaven and Earth as ‘twins’, and in the use of identical metaphors to refer to both Heaven and Earth.THE GREEK MYTHS

In Phaedo, Plato described it explicitly as an Earth-like planet, which he called ‘the true Heaven, the true Light and the true Earth’.THE GREEK MYTHS

[edit on 2-3-2008 by Thurisaz]

Fascinating thread, I have long believed that the Moon was the place referred to as 'Heaven', especially since reading 'the Spaceships of Ezekiel'
and of course the Book of Ezekiel in The Bible [King James version].
I find the Bible to be an amazing history book, consider also the 'giant' skeletons found in Saudi last year, then look at Genesis.
Regards,
Horsegiver.

Originally posted by gimme_some_truth
How fascinating. Im searching for my bible so I can see for my self.

I always wondered who god was talking to in genesis 1/26 "And God said, Let US make man in OUR image, after OUR likeness.

Mabye know we know.

Interesting, isn't it There is no singular God. We were genetically engineered by the Elohim

reply to post by Vanitas


How condescending. The OP makes a good point, and co-incidentally i've also come to a similar discovery. The idea that you can de-construct the OP argument just shows how entrenched you are with the pre-concieved interpretations which have simply repeated erroneous ideas over generations.

Hmmm... I too have been made a foe by deenamarie53, but I thought it was kind of a compliment. I mean, I am called a "respected foe", so I thought maybe she was acknowledging that though we have very different ideas, she still respected my arguments and beliefs and was looking forward to engaging in more discussions with me precisely because we are so different. Have I completely misinterpreted her intentions?

Also, I have to say that as non-Christian, but a firm believer in the Torah, that your arguments as relating to Christ are simply meaningless to me. Please let me stress, that is not meant to be insulting or rude, I am merely trying to point out that there is a problem with the act of interpretation. For you (Christians) the genesis story where God speaks in the plural indicates the existence of Christ as your tradition teaches, backed up by your New Testament, etc. For me it does not, as backed up by rabbinic tradition, etc. We both have equally strong and (for ourselves) convincing traditions in interpretation of those key passages in the Torah (like Genesis 1), and mine are meaningful to me and yours are meaningful to you - and for each of us, that is enough to count as "truth". But to claim that our interpretations are categorically and undeniably the "true" ones is untenable and intellectually dishonest. Whilst I don't believe your interpretations, I would never deny you the right to. So going around this thread trying to brow beat people into submission to your own interpretation simply because their interpretation seems "out there" is not only unhelpful, it also makes you look like a complete mug. Also, brow beating without providing a single document to back yourself up but relying instead on "my really clever friend says..." is completely unconvincing.

Now I don't believe Heaven is a planet, but this interpretation is very interesting, and I'd like to hear more about it. So instead of just shutting your ears and mind and saying "I know more then your, lalalalalah, I'm right, you're wrong!", why don't you try on the new view point for size for a couple of minutes, explore with it a little? Nobody here is trying to convince you or to make you change your mind or undermine your faith, we're just exploring some new ideas - which might lead to some interesting discussions, and perhaps end up creating new patterns of thought and belief for those who find the arguments convincing. Let's have the arguments stand up on their own merit.

And if you wish to include information as authoritative, please provide references so we can look at your information and decide for ourselves if it is relevant or interesting.

EDITED, as always, for bloody all the typos I make.

[edit on 2/3/2008 by rexpop]

reply to post by rexpop


Huh? I don't know where this person made this offensive post to the jewish comunity. I ask you this though, do you believe in the book of Enoch? In it it states what the times of Noah was like and when Enoch went up into heaven he saw "The Ancient of Days, The Son of Man, and The Lord of Spirits", so when YHWH said "Let us create man in our own image." it just gives more text evidence to what we believe, also other people in the bible such as the ancient prophets quote Enoch, so that gives more text evidence to the validity to the book of Enoch. So if the story of Enoch is true, than the trinity he saw (in which sometimes he calls "The Son of Man" "The Elect One") may very well be the same trinity that the Christians believe in. Also it is written in the book of Enoch that his book was intended for "The Elect", which may very well be refering to Christians. At the hear of our faith we are to love one another as we love our selves, a type of Shalom, kinda personality. I am a Red Letter Christian, I don't kill to defend myself, I don't steel to feed myself, I believe in serving others (which sadly I don't do nearly enough) like Yeshua has done. It's sad to see that everyone still has this pork eating, white skinned, blue eyed, english accent Jesus still stuck in there heads, when in reality He would probably be stuck in the Abu Grav prison because he looks like a "terroist" (meaning he looks arab).

Originally posted by jimmyjackblack
Huh? I don't know where this person made this offensive post to the jewish comunity.

Uh, I hadn't realised I had... I'm sorry if I offended you however, which was totally not my intention. Erm, just to make it clear, I am part of the Orthodox Jewish community. However, I represent only myself, and do not speak as a voice for the rest of my community. Any and all posts I make should be read in this light - I do not even think the community has one voice on such matters, and I certainly wouldn't consider myself in a position to represent it if it does.

do you believe in the book of Enoch?

No.

So if the story of Enoch is true, than the trinity he saw (in which sometimes he calls "The Son of Man" "The Elect One") may very well be the same trinity that the Christians believe in.

Yes, if it's true then those epithets may refer to the Christian trinity. If that interpretation convinces you, speaks to you as "true", then please believe it. I'm not sorry to say that it is not an interpretation that sets my soul aflame. I'm not denying it might be true, I'm not declaring myself right or even more likely to be right, but for me it just doesn't ring true. The book of Enoch is a fascinating text though, and I've read a really interesting interpretation of by Elizabeth Clare Prophet where she thinks that the text explains how the Nephilim are currently in charge of the world. She backed up her arguments with lots of scriptural evidence, too. You might be interested in reading it. It didn't convince me though, but it raised some fascinating points and it was fun to try out someone's world view for a couple of hours, you know?

I am a Red Letter Christian, I don't kill to defend myself, I don't steel to feed myself, I believe in serving others (which sadly I don't do nearly enough) like Yeshua has done.

This is very magnanimous of you. I try to live a moral life too, but like you I often feel I'm not always living up to my full potential. I wish you all the luck in maintaining such a lifestyle, especially in the current cultural climate of most countries in the world.

It's sad to see that everyone still has this pork eating, white skinned, blue eyed, english accent Jesus still stuck in there heads, when in reality He would probably be stuck in the Abu Grav prison because he looks like a "terroist" (meaning he looks arab).

I agree with you here - the Church has done a fantastic PR job at completely erasing the Semitic roots of Christ. Unfortunately, I also believe you're right when you say that if Jesus were to present himself today (and, I stress here, that I do not believe in Jesus as a messiah or a son of God or even a prophet) he would probably not be crucified, but detained indefinitely and water-boarded.

Please understand, in my previous post, I was in no way calling into question the validity of your interpretation of scripture, or the fact that for you it is true. But your arguments do not convince all, and your interpretation, whilst exciting and spiritually uplifting to you, leave others (myself included) feeling religiously cold. That's not to say your interpretation isn't true, but I just can't believe it to be so. But I am all too aware of the fallibility of my own beliefs, despite the adamant faith I have in lots of them that they are indeed true. I just don't expect anyone else to believe in them. It seemed in some of your earlier posts that your were trying to quash any discussion of alternative theories and discussions about the nature of Heaven merely because you believe your interpretation to be the only one that might possibly be true. If your position really is so strong, then it stands to lose nothing from people debating it.

[edit on 2/3/2008 by rexpop]

Originally posted by rexpop
Also, I have to say that as non-Christian, but a firm believer in the Torah, that your arguments as relating to Christ are simply meaningless to me.

Noted. However, Tanakh comprises of five books:

Genesis (בראשית, Bereshis: "In the beginning...")
Exodus (שמות, Shemot: "Names")
Leviticus (ויקרא, Vayyiqra: "And he called...")
Numbers (במדבר, Bamidbar: "In the desert/wilderness...")
Deuteronomy (דברים, Devarim: "Words", "Discourses", or "Things")

These books are the same books found in the OT of my Bible?

I am curious to see then what is meaningful to you. Obviously all in the Tanakh but that would include Genesis/Bereshis, which provides for the creation or things "in the beginning"?

I just wonder how different the interpretations are?

In the Dake Bible, the notes from Chpt 1 state:

Gen 1:1: "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth"

The notes from the above state (I have left some notes out as they are translations of words, but this is interesting):

b: From the dateless past to the end of the 7 days of 1:3-2:25. The period may be called the Ante-chaotic Age - the Dispensation of Angels, because Angels ruled various planets (Isa. 14:12-14; Ezek. 28:11-17; Col. 1:15-18)

d: "The world (Gr. Kosmos, social system) that then was" which embraces the whole pre-Adamite universe, to which all fossils and remains belong

Does the Tanakh include notes such as these? If they are the same books, are the accounts the same?

Now I don't believe Heaven is a planet, but this interpretation is very interesting

Thank you


[edit on 2-3-2008 by Thurisaz]

[edit on 2-3-2008 by Thurisaz]

Originally posted by jimmyjackblack
I ask you this though, do you believe in the book of Enoch?

LOL now, maybe I am psychic

When I responded and said Enoch wasn't in the Cannon you replied Enoch, the person was, but it seems that that particular book has impressed you?


[edit on 2-3-2008 by Thurisaz]

Originally posted by Thurisaz
Tanakh comprises of five books ... These books are the same books found in the OT of my Bible?

Very true, they are! I would suggest though that a Christian understanding of these texts is in some respects very different to a Jewish one (and in some cases, for instance, where a Christian might read a text as proof of the Trinity, antithetical to a Jewish one).

However, in this discussion, I don't believe these differences will impact too much, because the Heaven is a planet idea is an equally radical interpretation to the orthodoxy of both traditions, and the arguments you've put forward so far could be made to both a Jew or a Christian - except for discussion of the Trinity, which simply wouldn't be applicable to a Jewish understanding for the reason that any Heaven predicated on the existence of the Trinity is not a Heaven an (Orthodox) Jew could accept, just like, I'm guessing, a Heaven where Christ and the Holy Spirit are completely lacking just wouldn't make sense to an (Orthodox) Christian. Again though, these are not to say individuals of each religion couldn't find meaning in the tradition of the other, but the traditions themselves are not compatible on this issue. This is the only reason I bought up the point about Christ in my last post but one. However, I do not wish to stop talking about Christ's place in this Heaven Planet, it is such a dynamic and interesting understanding of Scripture. I was just trying to say that the Heaven Planet for me would lack him.

EDIT: Although, perhaps the figure where you posit Christ could in fact be the Jewish Messiah, although for us it would be his/her/its first coming, not second.

[edit on 2/3/2008 by rexpop]

EDIT: Wow, I'm sorry, I totally forgot to respond to your first question! The position of the Orthodox Jew is that as well as the Torah was given directly by God to Moses as the Written Law, so too was the Oral Torah given to him on Mt Sinai. As well as this original explanation of all the 5 Books, there has been 3 millennia of evolving oral tradition. It wasn't first written down until the 4-6 Centuries CE. Since then, there has been a constant stream of Responsa literature by the halachik [legal] authorities. Most Bibles are accompanied by several major commentaries - which often contradict each other but all of which are considered authoritative. I simply couldn't explain "the" Jewish interpretation of these texts. Bereishis itself is also subject to the most mystical reverence, and is considered a text by many that will never be understood fully until the time the Messiah comes. Within the written text is all truth, all knowledge, and it can never be exhausted by Human intelligence. For me, it sets my very soul on fire just trying to swim in the deep waters of the Torah, and knowing that I will never know, but I can come to increasingly deeper and and more profound depths of unknowing.

[edit on 2/3/2008 by rexpop]

EDITED for clarification of a point.

[edit on 2/3/2008 by rexpop]

Originally posted by imd12c4funn
Regarding versions of the bible, on the Ethereal Library site
found here:
www.ccel.org...

Thank you for this link!

"The Urantia Book"

...and thanks for mentioning this too. I had recently been u2u'd some infor re this book and looked into it:

Urantia Book Online

This book has the factor and I feel it may take me a long time to read it, let alone digest it.

I think in most all of these Scriptures and other literature, the main point that seems to confront what these are trying to teach us boils down to showing us that we should strive towards Godliness, living our lives in pursuit of attaining spiritual perfection in ourselves as we can in this physical body and earthly realm as God is perfection, wanting us this way in his image, and being with him as our destination.

Yes, this is the foundation of all religions. It is just the houses get built differently.

...What is the essence of existence?

Now that topic would do my head in!

reply to post by Thurisaz


Shamayim is the hebrew word used for heaven in that first verse of the first chapter or the first book. It means literaly "the visable sky".


[edit on 2-3-2008 by jimmyjackblack]

Originally posted by rexpop
However, in this discussion, I don't believe these differences will impact too much, because the Heaven is a planet idea is an equally radical interpretation to the orthodoxy of both traditions

Yes, funny then the radical interpretation is found in the Bible and relates to the OT and NT!

I do not wish to stop talking about Christ's place in this Heaven Planet, it is such a dynamic and interesting understanding of Scripture. I was just trying to say that the Heaven Planet for me would lack him.

I understand the point you are making and please note, I respect your beliefs and your contribution here. Your views are not less than mine, thats the way I feel about things.

EDIT: The position of the Orthodox Jew is that as well as the Torah was given directly by God to Moses as the Written Law, so too was the Oral Torah given to him on Mt Sinai. As well as this original explanation of all the 5 Books, there has been 3 millennia of evolving oral tradition. It wasn't first written down until the 4-6 Centuries CE. Since then, there has been a constant stream of Responsa literature by the halachik [legal] authorities. Most Bibles are accompanied by several major commentaries - which often contradict each other but all of which are considered authoritative. I simply couldn't explain "the" Jewish interpretation of these texts. Bereishis itself is also subject to the most mystical reverence, and is considered a text by many that will never be understood fully until the time the Messiah comes. Within the written text is all truth, all knowledge, and it can never be exhausted by Human intelligence. For me, it sets my very soul on fire just trying to swim in the deep waters of the Torah, and knowing that I will never know, but I can come to increasingly deeper and and more profound depths of unknowing.

I have requoted this entire para because a) I am thrilled to read it and learn and b)feel it is pivotal to this discussion.

The thousands of years of oral traditions intrigues me. I just hope that the oral traditions have not been diluted as with chinese whispers and I also wonder how much of the oral information is not written down? Kept secret for all time or to remain only with a select few?

Thanks so much for contributing in such a quality manner here!
Sincerely

Originally posted by Thurisaz
The thousands of years of oral traditions intrigues me. I just hope that the oral traditions have not been diluted as with chinese whispers and I also wonder how much of the oral information is not written down? Kept secret for all time or to remain only with a select few?

See, this is what I have always wondered about. For Jewish Orthodoxy, Moses was the prophet par excellence, and none have equalled his understanding or connection to God - he is the only person in history to have talked to God "face to face" (a direct quotation from the Tanakh). He was given ultimate knowledge of the Torah, and taught all its secrets. Now, if he was taught all its secrets, and the Torah contains knowledge of everything, then clearly the oral tradition should contain everything in it too and we would already know everything? The fact that we don't indicates that much knowledge has been lost, or Moses wasn't the prophet I believe him to have been. Again, in matters such as these, the Oral Law has many competing opinions all of which are considered valid and true. The one taken by many Modern Orthodox Jews is not that Moses was given first-hand knowledge of all its secrets, but that he was given the laws by which Torah should be interpreted so that all its secrets may one day be unlocked (and there are generally accepted to be 13 of these laws). Indeed, there is a midrash (rabbinic parable) to the effect that when Moses was on Sinai, God showed him the future, letting him sit in on a lesson of Rabbi Akiva (one of the Talmud's greatest rabbis) and Moses was dismayed that he could not understand any of Akiva's teachings. "But this is not the same Torah you have given me today" he questioned God. God replies to the effect that Akiva has used the laws Moses will be taught to extrapolate "heaps and heaps of laws" all of which are true because they were found using the divine process of the Oral Torah.

If this is the case, then none of the oral law has been lost, it's just that much has yet to be discovered.

My own belief is that Moses was given all the Torah, Written and Oral, and participated more than any other person ever in the omniscience of God because he was graced with understanding of every secret of Torah. However, this could not be contained in a Human mind because of its vastness, so as soon as he left the altered state and returned to the Human realm and descended down from the summit of Sinai, much was inaccessible to him in a conscious state. This was the first loss of Oral Law, as it was all condensed and wrapped in symbolism and mysticism to make it fit inside his head, as it were. Even more, he was given an understanding that he had to let history play itself out, and if he divulged too much all at once, he would be running contrary to God's plan, so he passed on only the parts of his knowledge that he should and to only a select few and they did the same etc etc down the generations. The 13 laws of interpretation were handed down too so that when the time was right Humankind would rediscover the full glorious Torah revealed to Moses on Mt Sinai.

This is not a representative view of the Jewish Community though, and is only my belief.