Ask a Christian (even about the paranormal)

Originally posted by IAmD1
This is the question I was referring to as the question above:

I am suggesting that evil/devil/Satan/the LORD/ Who's name is Jealous/ is giving us his word disguised as the word of God. I.e is it not possible that the devil is the one who put the bible together to confuse us and lead us away from GOD?

Thanks for the re-state. No, the devil has nothing to gain by encouraging people to do good. That would lead people away from him instead of toward him.

Originally posted by IAmD1
Would you mind answering this in your own words no Bible quotes but your own thought why this could absolutely not be the case.

I met him before reading the Bible or coming to know God.

Originally posted by IAmD1
As for your analogy....it does not hold for me as GOD is supposed to be the father, the creator. I don't think a parent is justified in being jealous of it's child's lover(s). In fact I personally think that is a little on the sick side. As a good parent you are just happy that your child finds love. And if your child choses an unsuitable partner you as a parent should be supportive and not judgmental, listen and not rant, protect but not suppress. Because in order to learn that child has to make their own mistakes.

I was drawing two different analogies, sorry.

The first one was a parent allowing their child to make mistakes so that they would learn from them. This is showing that what seems to be 'indifference' or non-interference can actually be love.

I didn't mean a parent and a child's lover. The second analogy was an attempt to show how a jealous feeling could arise not rooted in evil. On the second, I was asking if YOU had a boyfriend/girlfriend who said s/he loved someone else also. Would you feel jealous about that or would you hope that the three of you could somehow learn to live together?

Originally posted by IAmD1
Finally I have one (or two) more question.
If I told you that I am GOD in the flesh! That I am the Christ on earth! How would you prove me wrong?

Because I now know God. I've spoken to Him and He has said things to me. Sorry, you're not Him. There's no need for me to try to prove it to you. God didn't make people to have them prove to each other He exists. That's something He can/will/prefers to do Himself else the relationship is meaningless. He's very personal.

Originally posted by IAmD1
What is the secret to knowing who is a false prophet and who is not, what is divine knowledge and what is the devils illusion?

Test everything. The devil and evil persues the goals of the devil and evil.

[edit on 20-3-2008 by saint4God]

reply to post by saint4God

Cool, thanks . I think there's a misconception about what the job of a believer is. Many people see believers as those who have a compelling need to go around converting people. This is a futile task because no person can convert another person. That's God's job. Our job is merely to spread the message, represent the truths in His word to the best of our ability, and give generously our love and compassion. The concept of "puppy-patting", overlooking the truth is neither Biblical nor beneficial.

Totally agreed on!
Too bad that there are way too many who take god for granted, or use his name for his own puposes.
And then we have fanatical fractions.... They ruin alot.

I'm unclear as to why there needs to be a distinction. To me, it's like saying cashiers should not be called clerks.

Well, i based my conclusion on that, (please forgive if i am wrong but it was over 15 years ago i studied the bible in depth) that there was a person who fought a demon, and if i remember correctly this was supposed to be before the fall of the rebelious angels.
Unless we have other fallen angels that is not told about, i can not see something angelic becoming demonic in nature, as demons can not manifest themself physically, angels can, that is why i rather classify them as devils.

Why would you say they're different? The Christian viewpoint doesn't make this distinction. Neither did he care to make a distinction when I met him.

Why would they not make a distinction on a name change?
That is like, Moses being Moses in one page and the second page being called Paul.
It has eluded me for some time, this about Lucifer and Satan, as i think them to be two different beings somehow...

Nope. Else He is not God.

So what could the explanation be then? (And no i am not lying about my encounters)

I think it is an important warning. There are many troubles with Necromancy.

I wouldn't exactly call it necromancy, as in the litteral term, since summoning can bring fourth creatures that has never 'died' so to speak.

I really like your answers
And apreciate your honesty.
But as it is with most mysteries, answers usually give a higher amount of questions to it

reply to post by saint4God


I beg to differ.
The Bible is the cause of many evils such as segregation and war. I think evil has everything to gain by pretending to be GOD. In fact as I understand it the soul purpose/wish for evil is not to oppose GOD but to become GOD. To have people worship it's name ( I am the LORD..... my name is Jealous) and to do his will. By teaching us that only SOME humans are worthy and the rest either need to be saved or are damned forever is a classic divide and concur, to give us different languages is another good example. And what is so feisty is that he is laughing us right in our faces. Again I ask you to prove to me that the Bible contains the word of GOD.

"Because I now know God. I've spoken to Him and He has said things to me. Sorry, you're not Him. There's no need for me to try to prove it to you. God didn't make people to have them prove to each other He exists. That's something He can/will/prefers to do Himself else the relationship is meaningless. He's very personal."

I am not asking you to prove that GOD exist. I am asking you to prove that I am not GOD in the flesh. The Christ on earth.




[edit on 20/3/2008 by IAmD1]

reply to post by IAmD1


I know that you directed your questions to Saint4God, but i just wish to pitch in...

The Bible is the cause of many evils such as segregation and war. I think evil has everything to gain by pretending to be GOD. In fact as I understand it the soul purpose/wish for evil is not to oppose GOD but to become GOD.

Yes agreed, this religion has caused many disasters on it's own.
However, this has all got to do with how people lived, if they knew how to read for example, if they did not know that, they took the preachers words for truth, even if they were not, since many thought that priests was god's tools here on earth and how he communicated.

Then we have greed, alot of things that happened, and still happen (Iraq)
Is because of one thing only, greed.

To have people worship it's name ( I am the LORD..... my name is Jealous) and to do his will. By teaching us that only SOME humans are worthy and the rest either need to be saved or are damned forever is a classic divide and concur, to give us different languages is another good example. And what is so feisty is that he is laughing us right in our faces. Again I ask you to prove to me that the Bible contains the word of GOD.

That is interpretation.
We can all twist things to seem to not be what they are supposed to be.
Agreed, though that the bible is an example for controll and terror over it's subjects... Or is it to show it's power over evil?

Sorry for butting in on this conversation

So what could the explanation be then? (And no i am not lying about my encounters)

What if you need some "higher clearance"? I mean, maybe you must be a priest or an excorsist in order for it to work? As far as I know, excorsists are trained to deal with demons and other evil.

Originally posted by Karras

So what could the explanation be then? (And no i am not lying about my encounters)

What if you need some "higher clearance"? I mean, maybe you must be a priest or an excorsist in order for it to work? As far as I know, excorsists are trained to deal with demons and other evil.

Hmm...
Never thought about it like that, i've always thought that the knowledge is the clearance
It happened three times as i can recall right now, damn things mocked me for failing...
But it's good to have backups...

I dont agree on the term of a demonical possesion... I think it is devils that do the possesion thing, demons have a habbit of eating souls...

I thought of another thing that has cooked my mind for a week: ghosts.

Now, from a Christian perspective, the soul lives on forever after death. The only one who can undo souls is God (right?). This means that when this universe ends, all souls that ever lived in it will survive.

Now, if the souls are to survive, they must be something else - they can not be made up of atoms in this universe. So, the question is, how can we see ghosts? If my assumption holds water, souls are invisible to us while we are alive. In order to see something in this universe, the object must create or reflect light (thus, it must be in this universe as a physical object).

In other words, we either get the power to control a small amount of material after we die (as ghosts), or ghosts aren't dead humans at all.

Originally posted by Balez

I know that you directed your questions to Saint4God, but i just wish to pitch in...

Great! The more the merrier

Yes agreed, this religion has caused many disasters on it's own.
However, this has all got to do with how people lived, if they knew how to read for example, if they did not know that, they took the preachers words for truth, even if they were not, since many thought that priests was god's tools here on earth and how he communicated.

Then we have greed, alot of things that happened, and still happen (Iraq)
Is because of one thing only, greed.

I totally agree with this greed is the major issue here but religion has as you say been the driving force of many wars between peoples. And is to this day used as a separator rather than a unifier o people. Especially so with the Bible... but also the Quoran and the Torah which by the way is all part of the same religious backbone and really a trilogy of books as supposed to separate religions. I am not questioning faith or that GOD exist thou' just whether or not the holy book(s) actually is that holy and untarnished.

That is interpretation.
We can all twist things to seem to not be what they are supposed to be.
Agreed, though that the bible is an example for controll and terror over it's subjects... Or is it to show it's power over evil?

Sorry for butting in on this conversation

Absolutely right that is interpretation. That was the whole point - to say that it's all down to interpretation. How are you sure which interpretation is correct as the only references that exist to what to believe generally comes from other people and not directly from GOD.

Fact still remain that the Bible was never 1 book as such and what has become our modern Bible is and has been re-interpreted, re-translated and edited by many people along the way. Therefor I think you can safely say that the Bible is not the direct word of GOD but the supposed word of GOD as interpreted by many different people. The Q'ran and Torah on the other hand stay un-edited since day 1 if I understand it correctly.

So based on this I think you can rightfully make the assumption that if evil was to influence us using any holy scripture the Bible is top of the list of suspects. Since man is susceptible to evil and sin by default then the default should be to disbelieve any claims that any man make...?


Hey - as far as I'm concerned you butt in when ever you feel like it ... good points





[edit on 21/3/2008 by IAmD1]

reply to post by IAmD1

I totally agree with this greed is the major issue here but religion has as you say been the driving force of many wars between peoples. And is to this day used as a separator rather than a unifier o people. Especially so with the Bible... but also the Quoran and the Torah which by the way is all part of the same religious backbone and really a trilogy of books as supposed to separate religions. I am not questioning faith or that GOD exist thou' just whether or not the holy book(s) actually is that holy and untarnished.

You could be right about that.
Words and their meanings change over years, what happen with words over thousands of years? I see you point.
And between that we have translations....

The usage of the bible for personal gain is nothing new.
It is still used for that same purpose today.

I have always said that "Let the religious matter fall to the priests, and let the wordly matters be to our rulers, without involvement from eachother"

So based on this I think you can rightfully make the assumption that if evil was to influence us using any holy scripture the Bible is top of the list of suspects. Since man is susceptible to evil and sin by default then the default should be to disbelieve any claims that any man make...?

Then we come to the question, could evil change the book for his own gain?
How much would he have to change, that there would be any kind of, sway for 'his' side?`

As i see it, humanity could be what is 'evil' as a group.
We are usually never tolerant to what other people think and believe.
Some have a difficult time to figure how someone could accept any religion than Christianity as his own.

The only thing i have a problem with is, you have to embrace the religion, and it's beliefs, to be accepted.
You have to live by it.
You have to think by it.
And at times you have to eat by it.

For me that is, like giving up parts of who i am, it is also one of the things that turned me to alternative products

Anyways, i'm just rambling on.... as usual.

Balez - We are definitely reading on the same page :-)

Thanx for the P.M can not answer as I do not have enough points.

Originally posted by Balez
Well, i based my conclusion on that, (please forgive if i am wrong but it was over 15 years ago i studied the bible in depth) that there was a person who fought a demon, and if i remember correctly this was supposed to be before the fall of the rebelious angels.
Unless we have other fallen angels that is not told about, i can not see something angelic becoming demonic in nature, as demons can not manifest themself physically, angels can, that is why i rather classify them as devils.

The history of angels and demons is patchwork, from a Biblical standpoint and seems to be intentionally so. As I understood it, when the details were included, people became obsessive with directing their worship to them instead of God. We do not command neither angels nor demons, so attempting to rule by knowledge simply doesn't work in the spiritual realm.

Originally posted by Balez
Why would they not make a distinction on a name change? That is like, Moses being Moses in one page and the second page being called Paul.

The characteristics between demons and fallen angels aren't different.

"And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light." - 2 Corinthians 11:14

"Test everything. Hold on to the good. Avoid every kind of evil." - 1 Thessalonians 5:21-22

"Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world." - 1 John 4:1

Apparently evil is very skilled at playing the "good guy".

Originally posted by Balez
It has eluded me for some time, this about Lucifer and Satan, as i think them to be two different beings somehow...

Ah, and you believe they'd get along just fine with each other existing? Once one hears words from Satan, it's clear he doesn't 'get along' with any other. Anything he sees as outside God's domain falls under attack.

Originally posted by Balez
So what could the explanation be then? (And no i am not lying about my encounters)

Certainly I'd like to hear the specifics on the encounters to compare with my own. Perhaps by U2U or if you don't mind forum, it's certainly welcomed here as well.

[

Originally posted by Balez
I wouldn't exactly call it necromancy, as in the litteral term, since summoning can bring fourth creatures that has never 'died' so to speak.

Maybe I misunderstood, I though you were talking about calling back those who have died. But, a bit hair-splitting I think since the practices are similar, as well as the results.

[

Originally posted by Balez
I really like your answers

And apreciate your honesty.

Thanks! Likewise

[

Originally posted by Balez
But as it is with most mysteries, answers usually give a higher amount of questions to it

A good reason to live life - grow & explore.

Originally posted by IAmD1
I beg to differ.

Feel free to differ, no need to beg.

Originally posted by Balez
The Bible is the cause of many evils such as segregation and war.

Where in the Bible does it state to create segregation and war?

Originally posted by Balez
I think evil has everything to gain by pretending to be GOD.

Indeed, which is (per my last post) we're to "Test Everything" as well as beware of the spirits that claim to be good.

Originally posted by Balez
In fact as I understand it the soul purpose/wish for evil is not to oppose GOD but to become GOD.

Ya.

Originally posted by Balez
To have people worship it's name ( I am the LORD..... my name is Jealous) and to do his will. By teaching us that only SOME humans are worthy

The Bible never says anyone is 'worthy' of God's presence.

Originally posted by Balezand the rest either need to be saved or are damned forever

Again, it says we all need to be saved. It also says God WANTS all to be saved.

Originally posted by Balez
is a classic divide and concur,

Of which WE cause the division the Bible charges us to love one another, not conquer.

Originally posted by Balez
to give us different languages is another good example. And what is so feisty is that he is laughing us right in our faces.

And you know this...how? Because that's not what the Bible says He's feeling.

Originally posted by Balez
Again I ask you to prove to me that the Bible contains the word of GOD.

This is not my job, nor it the title of the thread. This is "Ask a Christian (even about the paranormal)", not "This Christian must prove to you the Bible is the Word of God".

Originally posted by Balez
I am not asking you to prove that GOD exist.

Good , I wouldn't want to disappoint by not being able to prove this to you.

Originally posted by Balez
I am asking you to prove that I am not GOD in the flesh. The Christ on earth.

Knowing God, I have no need to do this (although I could in one sentence). This isn't a gameshow for everyone's entertainment. I'd much rather spend time on words that have value and try to help where earnestly sought after.

[edit on 24-3-2008 by saint4God]

Originally posted by Balez
I know that you directed your questions to Saint4God, but i just wish to pitch in...

One of the beautiful things about a forum. Anyone can post at any time.

Originally posted by Balez
However, this has all got to do with how people lived, if they knew how to read for example, if they did not know that, they took the preachers words for truth, even if they were not, since many thought that priests was god's tools here on earth and how he communicated.

This is a kind of summary of the Protestant Reformation. One of the complaints was that the citizenry did not have access to read the Bible on their own. Perhaps this movement is Spanish Inquisition inspired. Keep in mind also that many people learned Biblical truth from many priests. Akin to the 'a few bad apples' analogy.

Originally posted by Balez
Then we have greed, alot of things that happened, and still happen (Iraq)
Is because of one thing only, greed.

True, in fact, all wars rooted from greed for land, wealth, power, or social status. Interesting how Christianity is not among that list and rightfully so.

Originally posted by Balez
Sorry for butting in on this conversation

Pitch in whenever you like. Forums are a round table.

reply to post by saint4God

The characteristics between demons and fallen angels aren't different.

However i do believe they are a bit different
Unless all angels are demons from the begining

Ah, and you believe they'd get along just fine with each other existing? Once one hears words from Satan, it's clear he doesn't 'get along' with any other. Anything he sees as outside God's domain falls under attack.

No i dont believe that, i do believe that the fallen ones are staying out of both Satans and Gods buisness, and from a strategic standpoint, Satan would lose alot from attacking them, and then he would be open from attack from God and his angels.

Certainly I'd like to hear the specifics on the encounters to compare with my own. Perhaps by U2U or if you don't mind forum, it's certainly welcomed here as well.

Certinly!
I'll U2U you 3 of the events

Maybe I misunderstood, I though you were talking about calling back those who have died. But, a bit hair-splitting I think since the practices are similar, as well as the results.

Sorry, i forgot about the religious interpretation of that term
Still, the real nercomancy is used by very bad people with twisted conceptions of what they are doing.
We could classify necromancy in three stages.

1. Summoning a spirit to instill in an object (Ouija boards exculded since the spirit is not trapped).
2. Summoning a spirit/poltergeist to take over a dead animal/human body.
3. Summoning a poltergeist/demon to take over a living being, animal/human.

These are the three main uses for real necromancy.

A good reason to live life - grow & explore.

Agreed with 110%

Originally posted by Karras
What if you need some "higher clearance"? I mean, maybe you must be a priest or an excorsist in order for it to work? As far as I know, excorsists are trained to deal with demons and other evil.

To toss another option into the mix, how about fortitude? Before Christ in my life, it was one thing I was lacking when I was getting spiritually mauled.

Originally posted by Karras
Now, from a Christian perspective, the soul lives on forever after death. The only one who can undo souls is God (right?).

Yep.

Originally posted by Karras
This means that when this universe ends, all souls that ever lived in it will survive.

Uhm, not necessarily:

"Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell." - Matthew 10:28

It seems soul destruction is a far greater thing to be concerned with than mere death.

Originally posted by Karras
Now, if the souls are to survive, they must be something else - they can not be made up of atoms in this universe.

Although I agree that atoms are not made up of souls, I'm not sure how we can draw this conclusion on this basis alone. A physicist could say the same using the law of conservation of mass and energy.

Originally posted by Karras
So, the question is, how can we see ghosts?

Apparently many of us can't

Originally posted by Karras
If my assumption holds water, souls are invisible to us while we are alive.

Yet, others who are alive claim they have seen them. Can we easily dismiss that they haven't? Or are we to assume those who testify they have are actually dead?

Originally posted by Karras
In order to see something in this universe, the object must create or reflect light (thus, it must be in this universe as a physical object).

If one is to believe only in science, yes. Whether this is entirely true or not I'm uncertain but tend to lean towards it.

Originally posted by Karras
In other words, we either get the power to control a small amount of material after we die (as ghosts),

Are you sure ghosts are the ones who are able to make themselves visible? If they have the ability to manipulate matter, why would they only affect visibility?

Originally posted by Karras
or ghosts aren't dead humans at all.

Another possibility, I think.

Originally posted by IAmD1
And is to this day used as a separator rather than a unifier o people. Especially so with the Bible...

One must ask, is the reason for separation the Bible itself or the people? In order to answer that, one would have to know the book itself.

Originally posted by Karras
I am not questioning faith or that GOD exist thou' just whether or not the holy book(s) actually is that holy and untarnished.

I think it's a right thing to ask.

Originally posted by Karras
How are you sure which interpretation is correct as the only references that exist to what to believe generally comes from other people and not directly from GOD.

Very simple. Ask God.

Originally posted by Karras
Fact still remain that the Bible was never 1 book as such and what has become our modern Bible is and has been re-interpreted, re-translated and edited by many people along the way.

You may be surprised to find out most translations come from the original text, not re-translated from each other. The New International Version is a great example. Over a hundred scholars in a period of about 8 years worked to translate the original words from Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek.

Originally posted by Karras
Since man is susceptible to evil and sin by default then the default should be to disbelieve any claims that any man make...?

I was and am a skeptic so I can understand this viewpoint. I think most on ATS are. We're The Home of Skeptics. Also, please take into consideration those who do believe in God do not merely throw their soul at anything that calls itself good. Who would be so careless about eternity?

reply to post by Balez

Oh, it's still running! I do hope no one minds if I jump back in...

Satan and Lucifer are two different beings, what is Satan? (not that i think that anyone knows the real answer to that).

Actually, I do. Lucifer was the greatest of three arch-angels, along with Gabriel (the messenger) and Michael (the warrior), His name meant something along the lines of 'master of light' (loose translation). Now, referencing the fact that in ancient Hebrew, 'light' referred not only to the bright stuff we see coming from the sun, but also to knowledge, I tend to see Lucifer as the arch-angel of knowledge. That, IMHO, was a very powerful title.

Satan means literally 'enemy' in the Hebrew. Lucifer is referred to many times in the Bible as Satan after his 'fall'. So they are the same, but they are not as well. The arch-angel of knowledge is now the enemy as well, but not necessarily the only enemy. He did have a third of the angels following him when he fell, so that's a lot of 'satans'.

There's a lot in a name where the Bible or the ancient Hebrews (who wrote it) are concerned. A name is not some label to be slapped on because it sounds good. They took names very seriously. This is where a good translational concordance comes in handy.

TheRedneck

reply to post by TheRedneck


I have to agree with you on Lucifers name, however i thought it went something like "The bringer of light" taken from a morning star.

Well, some of the episodes in the bible are a bit jumbled up imo.
I still believe them to be two different entities.
Or did the bible start with the fall of the angels?
Was a very long time since i read the bible, perhaps i have to refresh my memory a bit.

And something else i find difficult to accept is that a being who is supposedly to have been 'good' turn to pure evil.
Now i dont know how angels think, but it sounds improbable to me.
Unless he was instabil and got psychotic.

Originally posted by Balez
However i do believe they are a bit different

Unless all angels are demons from the begining

Other way around as it is written. Demons are ex-angels. There's no record of the reverse occurring.

Originally posted by Balez
No i dont believe that, i do believe that the fallen ones are staying out of both Satans and Gods buisness, and from a strategic standpoint, Satan would lose alot from attacking them, and then he would be open from attack from God and his angels.

This seems to underestimates both the leadership, authority and power of Satan. A bit dangerous, I wouldn't call what seems to be a bluff.

Originally posted by Balez
I'll U2U you 3 of the events

Looking forward to it.

Originally posted by Balez
Sorry, i forgot about the religious interpretation of that term

Still, the real nercomancy is used by very bad people with twisted conceptions of what they are doing.

Hmm...not necessarily. I have meant plenty who are doing so to try to help friends and loved ones. The concepttions are probably misconceptions, but wouldn't go as far as saying they're any more 'bad' and 'twisted' than you or I on a daily basis.

Originally posted by Balez
We could classify necromancy in three stages.

1. Summoning a spirit to instill in an object (Ouija boards exculded since the spirit is not trapped).
2. Summoning a spirit/poltergeist to take over a dead animal/human body.
3. Summoning a poltergeist/demon to take over a living being, animal/human.

These are the three main uses for real necromancy.

There's more than listed here, but these are three things that can be done.

Originally posted by Balez
Agreed with 110%