Ask a Christian (even about the paranormal)

In addition to the interesting things you have to say, I did want to expand on this point in agreement:

Originally posted by idle_rocker
Some, including myself, will even argue that Atheism is a religion.

One must have faith to believe there is no God because there is no proof there isn't God. Lack of evidence doesn't proof anything...except that we have no evidence.

Yes, without faith we have no belief system at all. No matter what you believe, parts of it, including evolution, have to be taken by faith because there are so many unanswered questions to everything.

Choose your faith carefully for it shall define who you are and what you will become.

reply to post by LovingSoul

Any religion is marked by some kind of faith. It doesn't matter if you believe in Jesus, Mohammed, Allah, Buddha, or a green chimpanzee named Alex. You have faith that your belief is correct. Even atheism, to agree with you, requires faith that there is not a God.

Whatever that faith, it is based on no scientific evidence that can be wholly supported by the scientific method. So based on this, your view would be correct. No one can fully prove that Jesus Christ was the Jewish Messiah, or even that there was to be a Jewish Messiah.

But consider this: No one has ever shown to be able to change the orbit of the earth around the sun. Should someone claim to be able to do this, they would be dismissed as an idiot, and for good reason. The earth revolves in a nice constant orbit around the sun, regardless of how many people believe otherwise. At one time in history (really not that long ago), people everywhere believed the sun revolved around the earth. When it was finally proven that the sun was at the center, did the universe somehow change the orbit? No, it had always been that way. People were just wrong.

As with everything in the universe, there is a way it works, and it will work that way regardless of whether we believe it does or not. And if we get it wrong, we pay the consequences. If the driver of a car believes that somehow his wheels are glued to the road and cannot slide, he will probably learn a very hard lesson the first time he decides to drive on ice; that he was wrong. Each year many people die from such mistakes. yet we do not blame the road, saying it was unfair, nor do we blame the ice, saying it was unfair. It is simply the way things are.

Perhaps it is possible that Christians will be someday proven to be wrong. I don't believe that will happen, but for the sake of argument and fairness, I have to acknowledge it in this forum. But what is certain is that, there is a way things work, and they will work that way whether or not someone decides it is fair or just. The consequences of an incorrect belief will be there.

As I have earlier stated, I have all the proof I need as to the correctness of the information contained in the Bible. You simply do not. as evidenced by your questions (and that is not intended as an insult of any kind to you or anyone else). I cannot prove to you that the Bible is true, for there is no way to voice the things I have seen. There is no one who can, save Jesus, and He will not intrude into your life against your desires. I simply suggest that, rather than dismissing something because it doesn't appear fair or just, perhaps you should look at whether or not it is true. That is a much more apt question, and a journey you must take alone.

TheRedneck

Originally posted by LovingSoul
So, again, if you don't believe in JC you ain't going to heaven. This is exactly why I don't do religion.

That thought has crossed my synapses too.

I really can't see Socrates or Einstein damned because they refused to follow JC (or in the case of Socrates, having the misfortune to be born before JC ever was!) I can't see someone like Torquemada or Cortez saved either, just because they believed in Jesus so much that they murdered to spread the good news.

Please don't get me wrong, I believe in God and I believe that the only way to live one's life is with love. However, I refuse to believe that if I pray to Allah or become a Buddhist, I am doomed to hell.

This simple-minded pagan has a similar problem believing, or even understanding.

Originally posted by IAmTetsuo
I really can't see Socrates or Einstein damned because they refused to follow JC (or in the case of Socrates, having the misfortune to be born before JC ever was!)

You or I do not know the hearts of neither Socrates or Einstein. Sure, we love what we did, but is what we do all of who we are? Both sound like very kind spirits who give to society. The Bible has a lot of good things to say about the giver. In the end, God is the One who decides, and if we have issue with it merely because we love them, then that shows where our attachments lie. Socrates nor Einstein did not design the universe or make it run. They tried to interpret it for us.

Originally posted by IAmTetsuo
I can't see someone like Torquemada or Cortez saved either, just because they believed in Jesus so much that they murdered to spread the good news.

Candidly I don't see how they could be saved either. We do know that a lot of what they said (such as belief in Jesus) were not fulfilled in their actions. Again, we know what they've said and did, but do not know them. Surely God would not allow us into heaven if we had prejudices against people going into heaven.

Originally posted by IAmTetsuo
This simple-minded pagan has a similar problem believing, or even understanding.

I think you're undercutting yourself here. This is not an easy topic to talk about. It was one well beyond my understanding until I was shown. For me, mere talk was not enough.

[edit on 17-3-2008 by saint4God]

Originally posted by saint4God

Originally posted by IAmTetsuo
I really can't see Socrates or Einstein damned because they refused to follow JC (or in the case of Socrates, having the misfortune to be born before JC ever was!)

You or I do not know the hearts of neither Socrates or Einstein. Sure, we love what we did, but is what we do all of who we are? Both sound like very kind spirits who give to society.

True, and we must not confuse character with accomplishments (or good works as they are called in Christian theology.) Both Socrates and Einstein enriched the world, by adding to the body of philosophical and scientific knowledge. They both seemed like men of good character. Einstein in particular wanted to put an end to war and suffering (though he had a blind spot when it came to suffering of communist tyranny.)

How about Noam Chomsky? A productive genius when it came to linguistics, but also a fanatical communist whose America-bashing goes quite beyond rational discourse. Or Henry Ford? Enriched the technological world and made life easer for millions, but also a personal SOB and a closet Nazi.

Someone in this thread mentioned Gandhi as another example of a non-Christian good spirit. I'm not so sure. Like many politicians he was an opportunistic power seeker, and his facade of peace and tolerance was very thin. (Imagine using civil disobedience against the Soviet Union!) He did little to modernize India and lift it out the morass of Third World poverty. He was definitely no Emperor Meiji.

The Bible has a lot of good things to say about the giver.

Yes it does, but IIRC little to say about people of good character, aside from the issue of faith and good works. The old faith alone vs. good works conflict which was a one of many causes of the Protestant-Catholic split. I like the idea of sins being forgiven, but also think, why not do more to prevent the sin in the first place.

In the end, God is the One who decides, and if we have issue with it merely because we love them, then that shows where our attachments lie. Socrates nor Einstein did not design the universe or make it run. They tried to interpret it for us.

I can say the same about the god(s) of my religion. (Note, I said that I was a pagan, not an atheist!) Whoever is in charge of the Universe decides - not us. It is up to us to find out what those rules are, and follow them the best we can. All religions claim to be the right one, to have the truth, and all that. Just being born into a particular religion is no proof that one is right. I say this because I have heard so many people tell me essentially that - that they have found the right god and religion because they happened to be born into that family/tribal environment.

I can't see someone like Torquemada or Cortez saved either, just because they believed in Jesus so much that they murdered to spread the good news.

Candidly I don't see how they could be saved either. We do know that a lot of what they said (such as belief in Jesus) were not fulfilled in their actions. Again, we know what they've said and did, but do not know them. Surely God would not allow us into heaven if we had prejudices against people going into heaven.

They did violate so many of the commandments of their own God (especially "thou shalt not kill/murder" many times over.)

Originally posted by IAmTetsuo
True, and we must not confuse character with accomplishments (or good works as they are called in Christian theology.) Both Socrates and Einstein enriched the world, by adding to the body of philosophical and scientific knowledge. They both seemed like men of good character. Einstein in particular wanted to put an end to war and suffering (though he had a blind spot when it came to suffering of communist tyranny.)

What I really like about our discussions is that they're progressive. We can both see each other's good points.

Originally posted by IAmTetsuo
How about Noam Chomsky? A productive genius when it came to linguistics, but also a fanatical communist whose America-bashing goes quite beyond rational discourse. Or Henry Ford? Enriched the technological world and made life easer for millions, but also a personal SOB and a closet Nazi.

Again I'd have to shrug. The only ruler we have to measure others (which really we should only be doing when we have the opportunity to help them) is the Bible. Still, our assessment is going to be off because the only information we have is what we see and what we hear. We can never know what's inside someone's heart. We can 'play God' and put Noam and Henry on the scales, but even if we make a right judgement, we have no power, authority, nor ability to set forth their destiny. Personally I don't want that job. Sounds difficult and stressful.

Originally posted by IAmTetsuo
Someone in this thread mentioned Gandhi as another example of a non-Christian good spirit. I'm not so sure. Like many politicians he was an opportunistic power seeker, and his facade of peace and tolerance was very thin. (Imagine using civil disobedience against the Soviet Union!) He did little to modernize India and lift it out the morass of Third World poverty. He was definitely no Emperor Meiji.

Shrug again. Never met Ghandi, nor has he ever asked my opinion.

Originally posted by IAmTetsuo

The Bible has a lot of good things to say about the giver.

Yes it does, but IIRC little to say about people of good character, aside from the issue of faith and good works. The old faith alone vs. good works conflict which was a one of many causes of the Protestant-Catholic split.

It did, and I for one think it's time for the split to be over. It's long overdue, both Paul and the book of James seems to agree.

Originally posted by IAmTetsuo
I like the idea of sins being forgiven, but also think, why not do more to prevent the sin in the first place.

It absolutely is supposed to be. For both Catholics and Protestants who delve deeply into the word, they believe the word Repent is much stronger than the word Apologize. Apology simply means "Oops! Sorry" whereas Repent means, "I screwed up so badly, I will turn away from that completely and do my very heartfelt best to ensure it does not happen again".

Originally posted by IAmTetsuo
I can say the same about the god(s) of my religion.

It sounds at least this is in common then.

Originally posted by IAmTetsuo
(Note, I said that I was a pagan, not an atheist!)

Yep, I'm familiar with the differences.

Originally posted by IAmTetsuo
Whoever is in charge of the Universe decides - not us. It is up to us to find out what those rules are, and follow them the best we can. All religions claim to be the right one, to have the truth, and all that.

Yes, but just because all claim this does not mean none are right.

Originally posted by IAmTetsuo
Just being born into a particular religion is no proof that one is right. I say this because I have heard so many people tell me essentially that - that they have found the right god and religion because they happened to be born into that family/tribal environment.

I'll agree with this. Also interesting to note that no-one is born Christian. You have to be born-again in the faith.

Originally posted by IAmTetsuo
They did violate so many of the commandments of their own God (especially "thou shalt not kill/murder" many times over.)

Agreed again. But, how many times have you and I violated God's law? I can't wag my finger to you, but I can at myself. I'd say several times a day. A sin is a sin, no matter how great or small. For example, I've gotten briefly angry this morning on the way to work:

"But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, 'Raca, ' is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell." - Matthew 5:22

How many times have you said "you fool!" (or something of the like) in traffic?

Even our thinking can be sin:

"Knowing their thoughts, Jesus said, "Why do you entertain evil thoughts in your hearts?" - Matthew 9:4

"For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander." - Matthew 15:19

Aw snap! I'm doomed. That means I sin like a several dozen times a day! But wait, not doomed...

"Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death." - Romans 8:1

Thank God for that.

As a Christian what's your view on the following.

Jesus says walk with me - but Christians constantly asks you to 'follow jesus'.

Jesus and God both say - Do not worship images or idols - However the biggest idol in Christianity is Jesus.

Jesus says the kingdom of God is within you - but still Christians look to Jesus and the bible for the answers.

The God in the Bible is a jealous God - How so?

If the devil is so clever don't you think he would hide where any super clever powerseeking i want to rule the world being would. Right in front of your faces using disinformation based on some truths to manipulate the masses i.e within the Bible?

Just curious...

Originally posted by IAmD1
As a Christian what's your view on the following.

Jesus says walk with me - but Christians constantly asks you to 'follow jesus'.

When Jesus said walk with me, he was leading. You can follow someone while walking next to them. The semantics aren't what is important. Jesus didn't say, "start walking and I'll be beside you" and for good reason.

Originally posted by IAmD1
Jesus and God both say - Do not worship images or idols - However the biggest idol in Christianity is Jesus.

There aren't idols in Christianity. If someone is worshipping an idol, they're not following God nor Jesus' commands.

Originally posted by IAmD1
Jesus says the kingdom of God is within you - but still Christians look to Jesus and the bible for the answers.

Right here, right?: "For from within, out of men's hearts, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery," - Mark 7:21

Nono, that's not it. What verse are you referring to?

Originally posted by IAmD1
The God in the Bible is a jealous God - How so?

He wants us to love Him. By not loving Him, He is jealous that we allocate that love elsewhere:

"Do not worship any other god, for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God." - Exodus 34:14

Originally posted by IAmD1
If the devil is so clever don't you think he would hide where any super clever powerseeking i want to rule the world being would. Right in front of your faces using disinformation based on some truths to manipulate the masses i.e within the Bible?

Just curious...

Are you suggesting the devil has the power to corrupt the word of God?

When Jesus said walk with me, he was leading. You can follow someone while walking next to them. The semantics aren't what is important. Jesus didn't say, "start walking and I'll be beside you" and for good reason.

That is just interpretation on your part. So here's my interpretation: What if this means what it says literally walk with me. I.e You are as me and therefor do not have to follow me but be as me because we are equal. Give me one good reason my interpretation is wrong and yours isn't


Originally posted by IAmD1
Jesus and God both say - Do not worship images or idols - However the biggest idol in Christianity is Jesus.


There aren't idols in Christianity. If someone is worshipping an idol, they're not following God nor Jesus' commands.

YES - But Christians by the very name of the religion worship JESUS CHRISTUS otherwise the religion would be called GODworship or something to that effect


Originally posted by IAmD1
Jesus says the kingdom of God is within you - but still Christians look to Jesus and the bible for the answers.


Right here, right?: "For from within, out of men's hearts, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery," - Mark 7:21

The above is taken out of context he wasn't talking about the kingdom of GOD but the fact that what you eat can not make you unclean. But what you say, think and do is what makes you unclean.

Nono, that's not it. What verse are you referring to?

No I am refering to:

Luke 17:20-21 (New International Version)
New International Version (NIV)

Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society
[NIV at IBS] [International Bible Society] [NIV at Zondervan] [Zondervan]

The Coming of the Kingdom of God
20. Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The kingdom of God does not come with your careful observation, 21. nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the kingdom of God is within you."


Originally posted by IAmD1
The God in the Bible is a jealous God - How so?


He wants us to love Him. By not loving Him, He is jealous that we allocate that love elsewhere:

"Do not worship any other god, for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God." - Exodus 34:14

SO you are saying that it is possible to allocate your love to something/someone/another God other than GOD. Isn't GOD in everything that ever was and ever will be? What makes you so sure that The LORD is equivalent to GOD the creator of everything? I think this further goes to prove my point below.


Originally posted by IAmD1
If the devil is so clever don't you think he would hide where any super clever powerseeking i want to rule the world being would. Right in front of your faces using disinformation based on some truths to manipulate the masses i.e within the Bible?

Just curious...

Your reply:
Are you suggesting the devil has the power to corrupt the word of God?

No I am suggesting that evil/devil/satan/the LORD/ Who's name is Jealous/ is giving us his word desguised as the word of God.

Love to hear your thought again

BTW - How do you quote someone like you just quoted me in your post?

[edit on 19/3/2008 by IAmD1]

Originally posted by IAmD1
When Jesus said walk with me, he was leading. You can follow someone while walking next to them. The semantics aren't what is important. Jesus didn't say, "start walking and I'll be beside you" and for good reason.

That is just interpretation on your part. What if this means what it says litterally walk with me. I.e You are as me and therefor do not have to follow me but be as me because we are equal.

Not interpretation at all:

"Come, follow me," Jesus said, "and I will make you fishers of men." - Matthew 4:19

"But Jesus told him, "Follow me, and let the dead bury their own dead." - Matthew 8:22

"As Jesus went on from there, he saw a man named Matthew sitting at the tax collector's booth. "Follow me," he told him, and Matthew got up and followed him." - Matthew 9:9

"and anyone who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me." - Matthew 10:38

"Then Jesus said to his disciples, "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me." - Matthew 16:24

"Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me." - Matthew 19:21

"Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel." - Matthew 19:28

"As Jesus and his disciples were leaving Jericho, a large crowd followed him." - Matthew 20:29

Then there's also Mark, Luke and John.

What verse says "walk with me" again?

Originally posted by IAmD1
YES - But Christians by the very name of the religion worship JESUS CHRISTUS otherwise the religion would be called GODworship or something to that effect

Jesus says same same:

"I and the Father are one." - John 10:30

The reason why it isn't called GODworship is because Judaism is GODworship without the acknowledgement of Christ being "I and the Father are one".

Originally posted by IAmD1
No I am refering to:

Luke 17:20-21 (New International Version)

The Coming of the Kingdom of God
20. Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The kingdom of God does not come with your careful observation, 21. nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the kingdom of God is within[a] you."

Forgot the footnote: Luke 17:21 [a]Or among

Certainly true you cannot see the kingdom of God coming as it is described arriving as a "theif in the night" (Matthew 24:43, 1 Thessalonians 5:2), but this does not mean that ourselves are the moral gauge of right and wrong "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." (Romans 3:23). Heaven is very well detailed in Revelation, but the Kingdom of God extends far beyond the boarders of heaven and is not of this world (John 18:36).

Originally posted by IAmD1
SO you are saying that it is possible to allocate your love to something/someone other than God.

Absolutely.

Originally posted by IAmD1
Please explain.

"You love evil rather than good, falsehood rather than speaking the truth" - Psalm 52:3

"you who hate good and love evil; who tear the skin from my people and the flesh from their bones;" - Micah 3:2

"This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil." - John 3:19

Originally posted by IAmD1
Isn't God in everything that has ever been and will be?

Nope. He isn't in sin. He isn't in evil.

Originally posted by IAmD1
No I am suggesting that evil/devil/satan/the LORD/ Who's name is Jealous/ is giving us his word desguised as the word of God.

"...God is love." - John 4:8

Are you sure God's name isn't disguised as the word for love?

What's the opposite of love? Evil, yes?

Maybe D'evil is a cleaver disguise for evil. Maybe not so clever after all.

Originally posted by IAmD1
Love to hear your thought again

Cool, thanks. I'm enjoying being challenged to bend the spine of my Book.

[edit on 19-3-2008 by saint4God]

Originally posted by IAmD1
SO you are saying that it is possible to allocate your love to something/someone other than God.

Absolutely.


Please elaborate - who is this other God/ Being that is not part of GODS creation which makes GOD so jealous.

Originally posted by IAmD1
Isn't God in everything that has ever been and will be?

Nope. He isn't in sin. He isn't in evil.

[B] Then GOD is not the creator of everything he is not omnipotent and is not the ONLY GOD. On the other hand if GOD is only in all things good then he can NOT be a Jealous GOD as jealousy is not a good thing by any standard. It is the cause for many evil acts. Nor can he be demanding, frustrated, vengeful, competitive or any other human feeling associate with being bad or not good. Hmm but wait is all of this in the bible especially the old testament.

Originally posted by IAmD1
No I am suggesting that evil/devil/satan/the LORD/ Who's name is Jealous/ is giving us his word disguised as the word of God.

"...God is love." - John 4:8 YES -NOT JEALOUSY

Are you sure God's name isn't disguised as the word for love?

No and I would never disagree with that except for the disguise bit. I thought that was obvious. And does GOD really play games and disguise himself?

What's the opposite of love? Evil, yes?
Nope - Indifference is the opposite to Love as with love comes care and interest and indifference is a lack of care adn interest.

Maybe D'evil is a cleaver disguise for evil. Maybe not so clever after all. That only works in English! and the Devil is a catholic invention.

I would like to hear your view on this. A reason for believing this NOT to be the case. You can not quote the Bible on this one as the Bible is the very book I am questioning. Would you mind answering my question by giving me your proof/reason why this is not the case instead of just random statements that does not answer the question.(above)



[edit on 19/3/2008 by IAmD1]

[edit on 19/3/2008 by IAmD1]

I was going to read the entire thread, but it was more tiresome than i thought.
So if these has already been answered just direct me to the post....

I respect any believer in christianity that has an open mind to their belief, and that are not stuffed in it or trying to stuff other people with their need of getting everyone into the flock

So you OP have my respect for this

As you might have understood i am one of those who have chosen to not follow the path that god wishes everyone to go.

I do have some questions though

I'm an avid reader of some literature, the paranormal.

As i have understood it, the fallen angels should not be called demons, right? (Since they are angelic in nature they should be devils).

Satan and Lucifer are two different beings, what is Satan? (not that i think that anyone knows the real answer to that).

As i've had alot of paranormal experience on certain levels i have come to the conclusion that when banishing a spiritual creature, most of the time the christian way works, but at times it fails and you have to call for another solution, that made me come to the conclusion that not every ghost/spirit/demon/poltergeist/walker is under the laws of god, could there then be realms and creatures that he has no power over?

Oh just a comment in the passing here to others that are wondering about their spiritual guides.
They are not on the same plane of existance as ghosts

And for the Quija board story.
Dont use those things! Unless you really know what you are doing.
There was a reason for god to set down rules for paranormal contacts, this is why, a Quija board is like a conduit, for the biggest part it can be harmless.

But what you are doing is a summoning, with out any laid out rules for the spirit or whatever you get contact with, this is the dangerous part, you never know who or what you have with you.
And when you are done, what do you do? you quit, game over yes? No, you leave the conduit open.

The fun ends usually abruptly when after a while you feel like you are being watched, that is when you know something got through.

I'll stop rambling now

reply to post by Balez

Hi Balez,
I am aware that you were not addressing me, but I wanted to address you. Mostly to thank you for pointing out some very important issues here. The questions that you have; I will leave those to Saint. It is his thread.
But back to the points you made; especially the Ouija board.
All to often, innocent people see it as a harmless game, because it is sold in the game and toy section in retail stores to the general public, of all ages.
This goes a long way in making it seem all the more innocent. But I do know from personal experience that it is not innocent, it is not harmless, it is not a game.
It is a portal, for spiritual entities to come through. Thank you for addressing this.

Originally posted by IAmD1
Please elaborate - who is this other God/ Being that is not part of GODS creation which makes GOD so jealous.

I did via Bible quote. When you had make the accusation that I was "interpreting" I went right for Biblical quote so that you could see for yourself. Beyond that, I'm not sure what else would constitute proof from a literal standpoint.

Originally posted by IAmD1
Then GOD is not the creator of everything

God created the universe with the ability to change. It changed. Unfortunately not in the way that was with God.

Originally posted by IAmD1
he is not omnipotent

Being all-powerful does not mean puppeteering everything all the time. Why would an all-powerful being waste time doing that?

Originally posted by IAmD1
and is not the ONLY GOD.

"There you will worship man-made gods of wood and stone, which cannot see or hear or eat or smell." - Deuteronomy 4:28

Looks like there are man-made gods as well, so the Bible seems to agree.

Originally posted by IAmD1
On the other hand if GOD is only in all things good then he can NOT be a Jealous

Why not?

Originally posted by IAmD1
GOD as jealousy is not a good thing by any standard.

When mankind is jealous, we're incapable of doing so justly. God on the other hand is perfect in purity and justice. When He is jealous, He is rightfully so because He knows and Is all that is good.

Originally posted by IAmD1
It is the cause for many evil acts.

Again, the assumption would be that God is unjust. This is not the case.

Originally posted by IAmD1
Nor can he be demanding, frustrated, vengeful, competitive or any other human feeling associate with being bad or not good.

Why classify God as "any other human feeling"? This is where there is an err in the the assocation.

Originally posted by IAmD1
Hmm but wait is all of this in the bible especially the old testament.

The Old Testament is a great resource to learn about justice.

Originally posted by IAmD1
And does GOD really play games and disguise himself?

Nope, glad we agree He is straightforward.

Originally posted by IAmD1
Nope - Indifference is the opposite to Love as with love comes care and interest and indifference is a lack of care adn interest.

You can love someone without doing everything for them. Parents understand this best. It doesn't mean you're indifferent, rather it means you love them enough to allow them to discover truth on their own. Growth. The opposite of love is therefore hate. Doing things against them to destroy love.

Originally posted by IAmD1
That only works in English!

Absolutely right. I'm glad we don't have to play anagrams to discover 'secret messages' of the Bible.

Originally posted by IAmD1
and the Devil is a catholic invention.

Sorry, Catholics can't claim to have invented the Bible. He's in the Old Testament as well as new which came about long before the word "Catholic".

Originally posted by IAmD1
You can not quote the Bible on this one as the Bible is the very book I am questioning.

Hehe, okay, then when I say something I'm suddenly interpreting? Choose one:

1.) Allow me to speak without quoting the Bible without accusation of interpretation

or

2.) Let me show you in the Bible where the answer is to avoid any interpretation.

I can do either, but it is pointless to bounce back and forth in a Catch-22 game from one "invalid!" stamp to the other.

Originally posted by IAmD1
Would you mind answering my question by giving me your proof/reason why this is not the case instead of just random statements that does not answer the question.(above)

What did I not answer? Speak plainly please.


[edit on 20-3-2008 by saint4God]

Originally posted by Balez
I respect any believer in christianity that has an open mind to their belief, and that are not stuffed in it or trying to stuff other people with their need of getting everyone into the flock

So you OP have my respect for this

Cool, thanks . I think there's a misconception about what the job of a believer is. Many people see believers as those who have a compelling need to go around converting people. This is a futile task because no person can convert another person. That's God's job. Our job is merely to spread the message, represent the truths in His word to the best of our ability, and give generously our love and compassion. The concept of "puppy-patting", overlooking the truth is neither Biblical nor beneficial.

Originally posted by Balez
I do have some questions though

Certainly!

Originally posted by Balez
I'm an avid reader of some literature, the paranormal.

As i have understood it, the fallen angels should not be called demons, right? (Since they are angelic in nature they should be devils).

I'm unclear as to why there needs to be a distinction. To me, it's like saying cashiers should not be called clerks.

Originally posted by Balez
Satan and Lucifer are two different beings, what is Satan? (not that i think that anyone knows the real answer to that).

Why would you say they're different? The Christian viewpoint doesn't make this distinction. Neither did he care to make a distinction when I met him.

Originally posted by Balez
As i've had alot of paranormal experience on certain levels i have come to the conclusion that when banishing a spiritual creature, most of the time the christian way works, but at times it fails and you have to call for another solution, that made me come to the conclusion that not every ghost/spirit/demon/poltergeist/walker is under the laws of god, could there then be realms and creatures that he has no power over?

Nope. Else He is not God.

Originally posted by Balez
Oh just a comment in the passing here to others that are wondering about their spiritual guides.

If we're speaking of guardian angels, this is a Christian belief that they do exist. I've had a few words with some...or perhaps the same one. Not sure. It was brief and I was the one did the listening. The messages aren't really important to anyone else since they were individual to my situation at the time.

Originally posted by Balez
They are not on the same plane of existance as ghosts

Ghosts rarely are described as beneficial. Either they frighten people or they 'just are'. In Christian belief, the spiritual world is very polar. Beyond the human realm, there is the alignment or pull of good or evil. Humans, since they are physical, are the ones standing in the middle confused.

Originally posted by Balez
And for the Quija board story.
Dont use those things!

Totally agree.

Originally posted by Balez
Unless you really know what you are doing.

I'd say not even in this case. I believe it is arrogantly foolish to believe you can be in control.

Originally posted by Balez
There was a reason for god to set down rules for paranormal contacts, this is why, a Quija board is like a conduit, for the biggest part it can be harmless.

But what you are doing is a summoning, with out any laid out rules for the spirit or whatever you get contact with, this is the dangerous part, you never know who or what you have with you.
And when you are done, what do you do? you quit, game over yes? No, you leave the conduit open.

Agreed about the conduit remaining open.

Originally posted by Balez
The fun ends usually abruptly when after a while you feel like you are being watched, that is when you know something got through.

I'll stop rambling now

I think it is an important warning. There are many troubles with Necromancy.

Originally posted by sizzle
The questions that you have; I will leave those to Saint. It is his thread.

Nono, I hope this isn't "The saint4God show" nor woudl I want it to turn into that. Give your viewpoint on any of the topics. If I'm the only believer heard, who is going to show me when I'm off the path?

"For God did not give us a spirit of timidity, but a spirit of power, of love and of self-discipline." - 2 Timothy 1:7

Flex your soul muscles.

[edit on 20-3-2008 by saint4God]

To keep this one short and sweet - I'd like you to answer my questions above & on this one I'd love you to.....

"... to speak without quoting the Bible without accusation of interpretation "


When I talked about your own interpretation not being valid I was only refering to the use of Biblical reference on which you interpreted what was written. I did not mean that you should not have your own opinion I just wanted to highlight that there could be another point of view/ interpretation and yours could possibly be wrong.

I'm NOT interested in disproving anything you say just merely have a conversation to understand your points of view as a Christian. no hiden agenda no trying to confuse or trying to win the argument either way.

It's the process of the conversation that gives me the pleasure not the winning or losing of a point

So with this cleared up ....

I don't think you are answering my question here maybe i should explain myself a bit better.

1. Indifference is the opposite to Love.

You can love someone without doing everything for them. Parents understand this best. It doesn't mean you're indifferent, rather it means you love them enough to allow them to discover truth on their own. Growth. The opposite of love is therefore hate. Doing things against them to destroy love.


I still maintain that indifference is the opposite of love. Hate ( in my opinion I should say) is a shade of love- Hate is the child of Love and Jealousy. Hate can sometimes cause god things to happen because it spurs you out of indifference and in to action. It causes change and as heath is only a bad thing depending on how you look at it.

But indifference on the other hand is bad from any angle. That's what causes people to butcher one another without any thought for the other being. It's what creates people who kill people just because they can...people who hurt others just because the opportunity was there. Bacause indifference is not a creational state. Indifference is the ultimate death of spirit.


I do not agree that you can be just in your jealousy. Unconditional love in my oppinion is the only godly state of being. It is the only state in which all other feelings/emotins and states become obsolete. And in my view it is as close to describing GOD as you can get. No fuss or complicated interpretation necessary just find unconditional love and you have found GOD.


[edit on 20/3/2008 by IAmD1]

[edit on 20/3/2008 by IAmD1]

[edit on 20/3/2008 by IAmD1]

Originally posted by IAmD1
To keep this one short and sweet - I'd like you to answer my questions above

Sure, which question did I miss?

Originally posted by IAmD1
& on this one I'd love you to.....

"... to speak without quoting the Bible without accusation of interpretation "

Sounds good, I can do that.

Originally posted by IAmD1
I'm NOT interested in disproving anything you say just merely have a conversation to understand your points of view as a Christian. no hiden agenda no trying to confuse or trying to win the argument either way.

It's the process of the conversation that gives me the pleasure not the winning or losing of a point

That's cool, I feel the same way.

Originally posted by IAmD1
So with this cleared up ....

I don't think you are answering my question here maybe i should explain myself a bit better.

I still maintain that indifference is...

But indifference on the other hand...

I do not agree...

What was the question?

I appreciate the viewpoints and can see where we disagree.

Although human jealousy cannot be righteous, I'll try to give an analogy that may give a piece of at least 'justified feeling'. If you had a boyfriend/girlfriend who says she loves you romantically AND someone else romantically, would you feel justified in being jealous? Or it "cool" that she loves you both and maybe someday all three of you will get along fine?

[edit on 20-3-2008 by saint4God]

This is the question I was referring to as the question above:

I am suggesting that evil/devil/Satan/the LORD/ Who's name is Jealous/ is giving us his word disguised as the word of God. I.e is it not possible that the devil is the one who put the bible together to confuse us and lead us away from GOD?

Would you mind answering this in your own words no Bible quotes but your own thought why this could absolutely not be the case.


As for your analogy....it does not hold for me as GOD is supposed to be the father, the creator. I don't think a parent is justified in being jealous of it's child's lover(s). In fact I personally think that is a little on the sick side. As a good parent you are just happy that your child finds love. And if your child choses an unsuitable partner you as a parent should be supportive and not judgmental, listen and not rant, protect but not suppress. Because in order to learn that child has to make their own mistakes.

Therefor I will again say that GOD has no reason to be jealous unless of course he is NOT GOD our father the creator of all.



Finally I have one (or two) more question.
If I told you that I am GOD in the flesh! That I am the Christ on earth! How would you prove me wrong? What is the secret to knowing who is a false prophet and who is not, what is divine knowledge and what is the devils illusion?






[edit on 20/3/2008 by IAmD1]

[edit on 20/3/2008 by IAmD1]

[edit on 20/3/2008 by IAmD1]