New Abu Ghraib Images (WARNING: very disturbing)

Originally posted by US Monitor
reply to post by Shere Khaan

 

It is very clear that the US Army does NOT condone such actions, afterall they court martialed those involved and punished them. A fact that is conveniently overlooked by those here who want nothing more then to bash the US once again.

That is the problem in a nutshell. You say the US army does not condone such actions, but they happened, and what's more they happened in more than just Abu Ghraib by more organisations than just the army. I am not bashing the US, just stating that torture has a foothold ni several places and it can spread.

These people saying that it's ok to torture terrorists, don't you understand that this term can easily be used on US groups that may not be particularly dangerous? What happens when they start calling gangs terrorist organisations? What happens when hate crimes get classed in the same league as terrorism?

It's a slippery slope when you start making exceptions to your moral code.

We are supposed to be the morally just!

If you are facing an enemy who resorts to savagery and radicalism, you should NEVER turn yourself into them to defeat them.

By coming down to their level, especially with the treatment of unarmed (and naked) prisoners, how are we supposed to know the difference between them and us?


One of you has painted a very clear picture of what Christianity looks like in the face of a holy war. You have turned yourselves into everything your bible tells you never to become.

Some of the supporters of these disgusting in-human acts seriously need to take a look in the mirror and realize they have turned themselves INTO the enemy.


We are supposed to be the morally just... and here we are disposing of all morals.

This sickens me. I'm quite good at placing myself in other peoples shoes... and I've dealt with some very despicable people in my time, and I have never, and will never come down to their level. I am better than them. Why? Because I refuse to become them.

Here I am, an Atheist, adhering to my own moral code, and I'm a freaking saint according to the bible compared to most "christians".


But go ahead. Let the religious duke it out with each other. In the end when your fellow religious followers are to be condemned to rot in hell by their own commandments and haven't a shred of humanity left in them,the realization of who the morally just actually are will hit you like a tonne of bricks, remember me, I'll be standing among them.

[edit on 29-2-2008 by johnsky]

[edit on 29-2-2008 by johnsky]

Unfortunately,these common thugs and criminals will never be prosecuted for what they have done,because they are part of the system which would prosecute them.They can't allow themselves to be busted for what they deserve to be punished for....
I have seen what appeared to be torture in a county jail when I was incarcerated for a minor offense 2 or 3 years ago.And have actually seen a news blip of the same type things that I saw there come up on the news for a millisecond,and then it was gone.
This country has gone to hell in a handbasket,and no one seems to notice.I am supposedly an "american",and feel shame for what is being done around the world,and here,to our own.
People,in reality,are tortured into submission all the time,by government entities and officers,there are greater and lesser forms of torture,from ambarrassment of being seen in the back of a police cruiser,to just being talked to in public along the road during a pullover.To financial the torture of keeping up with the joneses even though we cannot afford to.It goes on and on,and nobody seems to notice,This Actually is Hell IMHO.
We are in deep doo doo her in the us,but the majority of us do not smell anything.

He who leads by example,walks alone.Most people do not have the stiamina to keep up,to actually do the right thing,even though their morals tell them they should,it is easier,and safer to blend into the herd.
I have never blended well because I don't like running with herds,if you are not away from the herd,or leading it,all you see are assholes.
Not quite on topic,but you may get my drift if you give it some thought,if you think about the true "rotten core" of the problem.

reply to post by TheAgentNineteen


Hehe, yeah sure thats all your country does, yeah sure sleep deprivation causes people to bleed profusely and die and die with body parts missing etc, get real mate, your representatives are savages, they are the scum of the earth.

Let me start out by saying that I'm extremely proud to be an American. I'm at a point in my patriotism where I can clearly see who doesn't represent the American experience, ideology, and knowledge granted to us by our fonding fathers who in great selfless strides worked to abolish just what some people in this thread condone and even salute.

Please, if you haven't read the papers and teachings that formed the very soil you stand on do so now. Don't cherry pick you're way through them either, it's very essential that you pay close attention to what you're reading. It's even more important for you to understand it in the context of which it was written. Once you've done that I'd like for you to pick up a history text book specialized in U.S history. Then pick up a history text book detailing European history and skip to post World War I. After you've completed these tasks ask yourself this question:

"Habeas corpus, what is it?"

If you're able to answer and understand the very answer you've given ask yourself this question:

"International law, do I know anything about it (GENEVA)?"

I also invite my European friends to come read these texts with us. For there is no greater ignorance presented then by my fellows in Europe. I'm sick and tired of my brothers and sisters in Europe constantly putting me in direct conflict with my second family here in the U.S. It's time all of us come to understand what the real America is and stands for.

I'll give you a hint:

It's neither liberal or republican and the themes are universal.

Karma, will teach them the lesson that is coming to them for acts of such brutal nature.
For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.
We are the reaction.

Yes, the people who willingly chose to condone and turn a blind eye to the torture and murder of potentially innocent people will be pardoned and welcomed back into society as heroes. Yes, plenty of people in our government and in the military knew what was going on at Abu Ghraib, and they chose to ignore it. Yes, "soldiers" who were originally stationed at Bagram Air Base and were discovered to have been torturing people there were transferred to Abu Ghraib and told to continue doing what they were doing. Yes, the idea that our country is a "shining symbol of Democracy" and the "greatest nation in the world" is an illusion.

Right now, we're no different from Nazi Germany. The Muslim has simply replaced the Jew. The proof is in the comments that people have made in response to this Wired.com article:

"Ya know what bothers me far more than any of these images? The images of INNOCENT civilians jumping off of sky scrapers to avoid burning to death! These photo's are treasonous incendiary garbage, and will do nothing but aggravate the nazidesert apes that already hate not who we are, but what we are, an educated democratic society founded on Western cultural values. Let this guy stick to his studies, and stop trying to gain attention by sensationalizing images of those whose ugly and cowardly actions against women and children brought them to the ugly situations they found themselves in."

"Why does everyone focus on this prison so much? I'm sure that we have American citizens in prison for much less crimes that get treated much more harshly than this. Aren't we at war with these people? I guess it's just the liberal mindset of this country now. We can murder unborn children but we can't kill murderers or torture terrorists for information that may save innocent lives. Give me a break people."

"In fact, I'll even say that some of these pictures made me laugh. Go to hell, Muslims. We're taking your oil, and I'm getting rich off you stone age pigs."

I must recommend some reading material to people who are ignorant and flat out hateful enough to believe this trash.

1. The Constitution of the United States of America
2. The Declaration of Independence
3. The Federalist Papers
4. The personal diaries and letters of the Founding Fathers

And, if you're not convinced by then:

5. "Mein Kampf" by Adolf Hitler

I'm sure you'll find some similarities between your twisted minds and good old Adolf's.

Get the # out of my country before those of us who still believe in the goodness of the human race decide to finish what John Hancock, Thomas Jefferson, James Madison, Ben Franklin, George Washington and the other architects of the Declaration of Independence started and Abe Lincoln and the true citizens of the United States of America later continued.

We hold these truths to be self-evident.

[edit on 29-2-2008 by Majal]

The incidents portrayed, though in the past, are still being committed around the world today. To think that it has stopped even within the US armed services would be quite naive at best and grossly ignorant at worst.

Some of the "techniques" were brought to Abu Ghraib from Guantanamo as per testimony brought out during the investigation. So has the "techniques" stopped being used there (Guantanamo)? Well, in the fact that "water boarding" is used and seems to be S.O.P., I would say it hasn't. Thus it is safe to conclude all is not as it has been stated.

Some of the most disturbing points were that of the use of non-military/non-government interrogators. Private interrogators that were not bound by military or governmental law (US) being outside of the US jurisdiction. Along with foreign interrogators also allowed to question detainees. As to what methods were used in their questioning was not brought to light.

Have they closed the "secret" prisons, no, you just don't hear about them anymore. Its old news now and not worth mentioning but you can bet your bottom dollar they are very much so in operation. Does this mean that we should turn a blind eye and not bring the issue back in the conscience of modern society? I think not, in fact it is our moral duty to do so.

At which point do we draw the line is the question. Should we allow this to continue because it is happening over there or stop it before it reaches home? Never think it couldn't happen in the US, it can and will unless as a people we put a stop to it.

Remember G.W.B. Jr said of the constitution; "its only a piece of paper".

The only thing needed for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.

Not saying it's right, but, like it or not torture is a part of war probably since prehistory. The technological age has given us the pictures to look at whereas in the past it was kept from public eyes quite easily.

I still think you people need to be a bit more concerned for our men and women over there fighting and not so much for the war criminals we have in prison.

Oldworldisorder, I love the fact that your avatar reads "Take no prisoners", yet all you have done in this thread is pule and pine for these "prisoners". You obviously seem to have a clear-thinking head on your shoulders.

/sarcasm

As for Abu Ghraib, none of us here know why those men are in prison. Some might have done something rather small, while others might have tried to kill our troops. Those who say they support, or understand, the motivations of men who want to murder Americans, such is your right. What I think of you can't be repeated on this board, thanks to the new censorship policy, so I'll leave it at that.

Honestly, I see each of these "prisoners" as likely stand-ins for the murderers of Nick Berg and Daniel Pearl. As such, whatever horrors can be visited upon them, I fully support. Those who want to attack and kill Americans must realize that we aren't going to "forgive and forget", and we won't play nice-nice after the fact either. Whatever this govt needs to do in order to safeguard this nation, and the American Way of Life (caps intended), I fully support. If that means a few imams "disappear", then so be it. If a few fathers would rather kill Americans, or plot to kill innocents, then I hope their children enjoy orphan-status. Too bad, so sad. I know that men such as these, and like those who serve Hezbollah, Al-Qaeda and numerous other groups would kill me and all those I love, if given the chance. Therefore I hope they don't have the chance.

You people who are squeamish about all this, grow up. Go kick off your birkenstocks, put away your Vegan-patties and try to develop a set of balls.

"We sleep soundly in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm." - Winston Churchill

[edit on 29-2-2008 by BloodthirstyCapitalist]

reply to post by ironman433


posted on 28-2-2008 @ 10:51 AM single this post "quote"REPLY TO:


every second that they are not inside of those prison doors you can bet damn well they are looking down the barrell of the enemy's weapon sir...
and if your so sure that you can do any better of a job than voulenteer yourself for the job....
and don't even sit there and even try to tell me that they would give any non muslim any more respect than they are recieving.....
they want us dead at any cost and don't fool yourself on that one.... this holy war has been going on for longer than the begining iraq war and bleeding heart's only will fuel and further their cause.. a world without christians or infidel's is what their mission statement is and has always been since the begining of their religion my freind.....
for the sake of all non muslim's don't ever under estimate ignorance in large numbers.............
and that's all i will say here!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Please tell me where in the Bible Jesus advocated war of any type. Its sick idiots like you who pay homage to some omnipotent divinity, and justify your killings with its existence. I did 8 years in the Marine Corps (Semper Fi) and have been to Japan, Canada, Guam, and Germany. Never in my time of duty would I have committed such atrocities. These folks may be in the military, but they are not military. These guys are criminals. They could have refused to do it, and they didn’t. What would have the military done? Filed charges, no way. The last thing the military and government wanted was for this getting out.

THIS IS NOT AMERICA.

This would never have happened under ANY other President, other than G.W.Bush.

Americans voted him into power, that is the truly horrible fact of the matter.

This video shows strong similarities to what happened in the Nazi camps, thus, Bush should be brought before a worldwide court of law and charged with crimes against humanity.
That, IMHO, is the only way America can ever truly be forgiven by the rest of the world for their mosterous activities.

Remember, this is only what we're aware of, what else is/has been going on that we don't know about???

And Bush STILL claims they do NOT use torture techniques???

reply to post by Bashibozkedi


Of course the beheadings were done by the other side, but nevertheless were horrible.

Originally posted by willywagga
reply to post by ironman433

 

You are stupid enough to suggest that Iraqis are primitive and savage, this is very untrue and the average Iraqi has a higher level of education than most americans, despite the years of sanctions and war, they are more culturally advanced than most americans, most speak several languages, how many can you speak, apart from the language of violence.
You are the savage, you are the beast here. sorry but this is truly my opinion.

The poorest Iraqi is a millions times more enlightened than you are.
What's it like to be you ?

This is quite a comical observation. Would you care to share your statistics on education level and literacy rates in Iraq?

If you were to reference this thread for a statistic on how many people are with or against torture of military prisoners, then i would say there is a mighty majority against it.

What are we going to do about it? Nothing. We allow DEMOCRACY to solve our injustices, so we will do what we are supposed to do, wait for a hero in a five piece suite to save us.

This reminds me of a saying that i remember

"All it takes for evil to succeed, is for a few good men to do NOTHING"

Of course the majority of people on here are against everything to do with the war. But of course most here believe in other dimensions, the Illuminati, alien abduction, the murder of unborn children and soforth.

reply to post by Christian Voice


And what do you believe in? Obviously you believe that Christ rose from the dead and that his mother had a virgin birth. Do you not also believe that Christ performed miracles...water into wine, miracle cures...etc? That last post was pure Hypocrisy, but after reading a dozen plus of your contributions here I expect nothing less. You are, after all, a Christian who condones torture to uphold a corporate agenda and an illegal occupation of another country.




[edit on 29-2-2008 by Silenceisall]

I obviously believe in something other than myself or my own selfish needs.