Illegal Immigrant Kills 4 Children

I am not degrading South American immigrants. Yes, they are good workers, and several of our children are adopted from South America. The difference is that we applied for visas, waited in line, and did it legally, and they are now citizens.
Is it fair that those that apply legally and wait, finally get here and find that they can't get those jobs, because those that jumped ahead of them, by crossing the border at night, are out of luck.

If you're going to make a thread intendant on bashing a group based on the actions of an individual

and BTW, I didn't make this thread. I merely pointed out that illegals that drive present a greater risk of accidents because they don't go through processes of driver tests, which would catch someone that doesn't know how to drive. I hope you accept that fact, but if you don't then there is no sense discussing this anymore.

And please don't assume anything about posters, until you know more about them. I am very proud of all of my children, both our biological and adopted children, and I am proud of their native heritage.

Have a nice day.

Originally posted by Rasobasi420
Sure, they're illegal by being here.

My problem is when someone begins equating the guy trying to get a little money for his broken family with a murderer because he's doing what he has to do.

Agreed. That surely is your problem. Same problem as all the other bleeding hearts that would base their actions on their feelings (for the perpitrators, not the victims) rather than using logic and common sense.

It is not our responsibility to "fix" their economic issues in their home country by allowing them to come here illegally and commit sometimes horrific crimes.

At some utopian level, your "feelings" could be called noble. In our real world, they are basically just misguided.

[edit on 2/22/2008 by centurion1211]

reply to post by ProfEmeritus


I know you didn't make the thread. It was the 'universal you' to whom I was referring.

And of course people who drive without a license are a danger. Hence the need for licenses to be allowed for illegal immigrants. If they don't they risk more illegal untrained drivers hurting more people. It's cheaper, and more practical than a full scale roundup of illegal immigrants.

And again, the only way to ascertain whether or not someone is an illegal immigrant is through random ID checks and checkpoints. If there are other options, please let me hear it.

And I wasn't making any judgment on anyone except those enforcing any newly enacted policy to round up immigrants.

Being the parent of someone who could be mistaken for an illegal immigrant, you should be doubly aware of the risk involved in moving forward with such actions.

reply to post by Rasobasi420

Fortunately, my children are now grown, are citizens, and have their drivers' licenses.
Many people have suggested it, so it certainly is not my idea, but the way to handle the illegal immigrant problem is to go to the source of their "desire", that is, the employers who knowingly hire these illegals.
First of all, the illegals are usually paid less than the job normally brings.
Second, the employers can take advantage of them, because they know that the illegals won't complain about work conditions, etc.
Third, it is not that they are taking jobs from many Americans. It is that several states are nearly bankrupt because of the services that are being provided to them, including medical care, schooling, and other niceties that their NATIVE country are not providing them. They have better medical care for illegals in California than some citizens that pay taxes, have jobs, but cannot afford medical insurance.
When the states pay out more money than they take it, unlike the federal government, they cannot just PRINT more money. Eventually, taxes are raised to pay for the deficit, and the endless spiral downward continues. Many of those employers do not withhold taxes, and thus, those citizens that are paying taxes, end up in an worse situation.
Put the employers that do this out of business, confiscate their funds to pay for taxes not collected, and soon the word gets out that the government means business.
I don't blame those that come here illegally for wanting a better life for their families. However, when it is at the expense of people that have played by the rules, I DO have a problem.

Originally posted by centurion1211
Same problem as all the other bleeding hearts that would base their actions on their feelings (for the perpitrators, not the victims) rather than using logic and common sense.

OK, then lets talk common sense. Do you know the resources it would take to round up every illegal alien in this country? Do you realize the massive violations of civil rights that born and naturalized citizens would face attempting to remove the massive amounts of people who are so intertwined with our culture, population and lifestyle?

And when you start to round them up, what will you do with them? Now, rather than a small population of illegal immigrants in the prison system, you have a massive population of which all will need some sort of process to conclusively show that each person being deported is definitively not a citizen, otherwise you run the risk of accidentally shipping the Prof here's children off to Guatemala.

The cost of this type of operation would be immense. Not only would it be extremely costly, there is no way to say for sure that the cost of the action would be offset by the money saved by exporting all illegals.

It is not our responsibility to "fix" their economic issues in their home country by allowing them to come here illegally and commit sometimes horrific crimes.

Their economic issues are our economic issues, as you've made clear. And you seem to think that this is about donating money to a poor country out of your pocket, which shows that you don't see the economic benefit for the US in bringing Mexico out of the third world.

The investment opportunities for first world nations, including the USA, would not only benefit Mexico, but Americans as well.

query.nytimes.com...

Argentina, for example, has caught tax-reform fever. Mexico is selling its Government-owned businesses. Peru is cutting its budget deficit. Turkey has thrown off its decades-old protectionist blanket. Thailand kept its budget balanced and held inflation to a modest 3 percent. Ghana and a handful of other African nations no longer tax their farmers out of producing.

"The change in thinking is really remarkably pervasive," said Stanley Fischer, former chief economist at the World Bank and now a professor at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology. "Ten years ago, for example, Mexicans insisted that their main job was to protect themselves from the imperialist U.S."

If the nascent economic changes take root and spread, the four billion people who live in the developing world could enjoy a better standard of living. The changes could also provide a wealth of opportunities to businesses and investors in the United States and other rich countries.

At some utopian level, your "feelings" could be called noble. In our real world, they are basically just misguided.

Be noble in every thought And in every deed!
Henry Wadsworth Longfellow

Especially when it benefits everyone.

Again, they cross illegally, slaughter thousands of American Citizens yearly... and you don't call that an invasion? Sorry, just because they aren't wearing uniforms, like the Taliban, doesn't mean they aren't an army.

Man charged in deadly auto crash (Article is by The Daily Texan online)
media.www.dailytexanonline.com...


By Liz Austin (The Associated Press)
PrintEmail DoubleClick Any Word Page 1 of 1 A tractor-trailer driver accused of causing a multi-vehicle pileup that killed 10 people was charged Tuesday with criminally negligent homicide.

Miroslav Jozwiak was arraigned Tuesday after court officials found a Polish interpreter, Justice of the Peace Greg Middents said. Authorities had tried to arraign Jozwiak late Monday, but he could not understand the proceedings, Middents said.

Five members of a McKinney family and five people traveling in a pickup truck were killed Monday afternoon when Jozwiak's truck crossed a median on U.S. Highway 75 about 60 miles north of Dallas and struck the pickup and a sport utility vehicle.

The victims in the SUV included three McKinney children, identified by police as Chance Martin, 4; Brock Martin, 2; and Reid Martin, 6 weeks. Their mother Lisa Wood Martin, 32; and grandmother, Betsy Wood, 72; also died in the crash.

The five killed in the pickup truck were identified as: Manuel Esparza, 39; J. Marcos Esparza, 41; Hector Zapata, 33; Joel Mendoza Ruiz, 36 and German Esparza Velazquez, 19.

Middents said the two others in the pickup were taken to Parkland Hospital. Candelario Esparza was in fair condition there Tuesday. The Dallas Morning News reported the other passenger, Javier Esparza, had been released.

Jozwiak was briefly hospitalized with broken teeth and bruises. Authorities did not know why his truck crossed the median.

Jozwiak almost broke down when he heard the charges, Middents said.

"Basically he kept saying over and over he was not guilty," he said.

Michael Martin, whose wife, mother-in-law and children were killed as they returned from a shopping trip in Sherman, released a handwritten statement Tuesday night. In it, he described his wife as a "bubbly and gregarious" mother, his son Chance as "a great ball player and dynamo," and his son Brock as a "renowned charmer."

The Rev. Bryan Sharp of High Pointe Church of Christ in McKinney said Michael Martin is devastated.

"This young man lost his entire family instantly. He's in shock," Sharp told the newspaper. "I didn't see any indication of anger this morning; they're just dealing with their loss right now."

Brigid Cadena Esparza, 35, said her husband, Marcos, son, German Esparza Velazquez, and three other relatives were on their way home from a roofing job north of Sherman when they were killed.

"I just want justice," she told the newspaper. "They don't need to die like that. They were just workers. They just loved to be with their family."

No funeral information was not available for the occupants of the pickup truck. Brigid Cadena Esparza, said she was preparing to return her relatives' bodies to Mexico for burial.

A memorial service for the Martins was scheduled for Thursday morning at the High Pointe Church of Christ. A memorial service for Wood was scheduled for Thursday afternoon.



(what the reports don't say is that the dude never touched his breaks. and even though the guy was polish and needed an interpreter, he was employed by Eagle Trucking. This happened shortly before Bush signed the open highway policy to promote trade between Mexico, Canada and the US.) (However, He was a legal immigrant though. His driving skills were poor, and his issuance of a driver's liscense and his truck driver's liscense had a short time span, meaning he wasn't given the time to develope his driving skills before he was allowed to drive a truck here in the States.) My point being is that regardless of what status anyone is here in the States it is irresponsible for anyone to take to the roads without the experiences of driving.

Originally posted by dvn2d
My point being is that regardless of what status anyone is here in the States it is irresponsible for anyone to take to the roads without the experiences of driving.

Fantastic point dvn2d. To me, it seems that people are more than willing to take a tragedy and apply it to whatever agenda they have at the time.

Star for you, from me.

Originally posted by Rasobasi420

At some utopian level, your "feelings" could be called noble. In our real world, they are basically just misguided.

Be noble in every thought And in every deed!
Henry Wadsworth Longfellow

Especially when it benefits everyone.

Except, of course, the 4 kids killed by the illegal alien that should not have been here. These kids would be alive and whole today, if this person had not scurried (misma la cucaracha) across our border illegally. I'm wondering how their families and the injured and their families feel about your so-called benefits "for everyone"?

The only way you can justify your position on this is to say or imply that the dead and injured are "merely" the human cost of righting the injustices felt by the poor Mexicans. IMO that would be the most callous misrepresentation of "enlightenment" I've ever seen.

[edit on 2/25/2008 by centurion1211]

Originally posted by marg6043
as I can testify many of the people I worked with were driving cars even when they could no read or write

Now that is a serious problem. If you can't read English how will you know what the road signs are saying. "Danger! Bridge out ahead" wouldn't mean anything to you. Signs that clearly list school days and appropriate times to drive slower in school zones would be ignored due to ignorance. The point is, since all the safety signs for driving are in English, shouldn't reading English be a minimum requirement for obtianing a driver's permit?

Notice I said nothing about anyone's immigration status. Still I'm sure someone will think I'm racist. No, I'ts just common sense.

reply to post by dbates


I agree. I just would assume that since the test is given in English, those who can't read it would fail anyway. I guess that's a major assumption though.

reply to post by Rasobasi420


After reading your avatar "partnership for an idiot free America" and trying to square that with your posts on this thread, I've decided that either you are one of those so-called contrarians that likes to argue the opposite side no matter what, or you're just joking with the rest of us.

Either way I'm probably ignoring what you say on this subject from now on.

reply to post by centurion1211


Feel free. That's your right. There's also a little ignore button under my name. It might make it easier to ignore me.

reply to post by dbates


well, you're right.
though many signs are pictographic or have universal shapes, there are some that people who cannot properly read english wouldn't be able to understand

reply to post by centurion1211


your logic is flawed. the problem was that the person was here, it's that he didn't drive properly.
if he was here and knew how to drive properly, they wouldn't be dead. by making it legal for them to acquire licenses through legitimate channels, we make sure that they are proper drivers who can read all the signs, it prevents the problem.
you take things a step too far back by saying the driver shouldn't be here.

reply to post by madnessinmysoul


Great. Another one. My logic is not flawed since I seem to be one of the few actually using logic here.

I'm also living in the real world. The one where these kids were klled and hurt by an illegal that should not have been here. The real world where they would still be alive if the illegal had not come here. Not your fantasy world where giving away drivers licenses and other rights and privileges to people that have not earned them and don't deserve them is seen as "the answer". And I don't care how sorry you feel for this "poor illegal" and whatever caused them to to break our laws and then kill and injure our kids. Again, where is your sympathy for the people that really deserve it?

Flawed logic ...

Originally posted by Rasobasi420
reply to post by centurion1211

 

Feel free. That's your right. There's also a little ignore button under my name. It might make it easier to ignore me.

Since you didn't disagree with either of my conclusions, perhaps I was right about your positions on this thread. Sad, if that's how you want to try and play the rest of us.

reply to post by centurion1211


No one is trying to play anyone. I've pointed out the flawed logic, piece by piece. I've also proposed a counter option that is mutually beneficial to both Mexico and the US. An option mind you that doesn't degrade anyone, and would be financially beneficial to the US economy.

but like i said before, you can ignore it if you want.

Originally posted by Rasobasi420
reply to post by centurion1211

 

No one is trying to play anyone. I've pointed out the flawed logic, piece by piece. I've also proposed a counter option that is mutually beneficial to both Mexico and the US. An option mind you that doesn't degrade anyone, and would be financially beneficial to the US economy.

And one that ignores what actually happened to these U.S. citizens. One that also would not be needed if Mexicans stayed home. Calling someone that breaks the law a criminal and dealing with them appropriately is not "degrading" them. Bank robbers are criminals, not poor people that deserve a break and a bunch of "social engineering" because they thought they needed to steal the money to survive. It is logically the same with illegal immigrants.

I have also pointed out the fallacy of saying we shouldn't be involved in middle eastern countries, but it's OK to involve ourselves in mexico's internal affairs without their permission.

I've also pointed out "step by step" why your proposals don't even contain any logic, but utopian dreams.

I've also pointed out that your "plan" is of little comfort or use to the citizens hurt and killed by this (and other) illegals.

Just because you typed your "plan" on this board does not make it, workable, sensible, or even valid in any sense of the word.

God forbid it was a relative of yours that was killed or injured. Would you then just stand there and lament that we hadn't given enough aid to mexico? Sheesh.

Oh Jeez...

OK, I'll bite..

Originally posted by centurion1211
And one that ignores what actually happened to these U.S. citizens. One that also would not be needed if Mexicans stayed home. Calling someone that breaks the law a criminal and dealing with them appropriately is not "degrading" them.

I'd hope you'd value the life of anyone in this world as you would a US citizen....
And it is degrading to the massive number of legal citizens who will need to prove to any yahoo in a pickup truck that they're an American. Will it become standard practice to card everyone with brown skin? That certainly is degrading.

I have also pointed out the fallacy of saying we shouldn't be involved in middle eastern countries, but it's OK to involve ourselves in mexico's internal affairs without their permission.

And this one is just hilarious. I can't remember one time in this thread where I made my views known on the situation in the Middle East. But, even if I had, military action against a sovereign nation is very different than investing in growing Mexican companies and supporting economic autonomy. And where did the issue of permission come up? The government is fine with the US investing in the Mexican economy. Hell, that's what Spring Break is all about.

I've also pointed out "step by step" why your proposals don't even contain any logic, but utopian dreams.

I haven't seen one step. You've just said something at one point that vaguely alluded to my ideas being 'misguided' but never really explained why. I wait with bated breath.

I've also pointed out that your "plan" is of little comfort or use to the citizens hurt and killed by this (and other) illegals.

However, there are studies that say that the percentage of crime committed by illegals is smaller than that of US citizens. So.... I'd say we'd be a safer country if the percentage of illegal aliens were higher, and the percentage of US citizens were lower.

Just because you typed your "plan" on this board does not make it, workable, sensible, or even valid in any sense of the word.

Gotta say, it's not my plan. But it is a pretty obvious problem. When Mexico's economy crashed, their population came on over. If Mexico's economy were to flourish, there wouldn't be a need to over extend our own resources rounding them up and shipping them out. It's common sense.

God forbid it was a relative of yours that was killed or injured. Would you then just stand there and lament that we hadn't given enough aid to mexico? Sheesh.

Once again, the appeal to emotion for a logical argument. It fits as well as crying witch during a legal trial.

reply to post by Rasobasi420


Never seen a more hopeless case of "bleeding heart-ism". Example: You say I'm making an emotional appeal when you are basing your entire argument on feeling sorry for the poor illegals.

And yes, there was even a (quickly debunked) thread on ATS supposedly showing that illegals create less crime than citizens. Check out the post by kattraxx to crush that argument of yours as well.

thread

Done.