Illegal Immigrant Kills 4 Children

This forum is for the discussion of contemporary world events, with a general focus on conspiracies and/or cover-ups that may not easily fit into other topical forums. Discussion topics and follow-up responses in this forum will likely tend to lean in favor of conspiracies, scandals, and cover-ups.

There is no conspiracy or cover-up here.

Murder of 4 people is a tragedy (no matter who does it) but unfortunately one that doesn't fall into the definition of a "world event".

Moving this to "Social Issues".
.

Originally posted by Rasobasi420
You're right Centurion, if I'm going to be killed, I want it to be by an American so I can be proud of it.

That's ridiculous. There's no evidence that says the proportionate crime rate committed by illegal aliens is any higher than those committed by citizens.

Again, your logic is flawed.

You apparently understand sarcasm, but little else on this issue. Try a compression bandage on that bleeding heart of yours. :LOL:

Dead is of course dead, no matter who kills you. The distinction, of course, is whether these deaths could have been of been prevented by keeping illegals out of the U.S. I say the answer is obviously "YES" in this particular case - and others like it.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
so.....your logic is kind of flawed.

Ahh, no it is not flawed. It's the friggin truth. You just don't want to face it. If they weren't here, there would not be this story. Truth. Plain and simple.

And I will further argue that it is ok to call out the actions of this illegal group once in a while. Because there already is a thousand fold times more reporting on the "legal" citizens that kill people via accidents, murders, rapes, etc. So it is your logic that is flawed. I don't buy into this argument that "oh, why don't you report on the regular citizens" crap. Just look around. That is already being done en masse.

I should also remind all that the 'ignore my neighbor' xenophobic policy is what leads to illegal immigration anyway. Like Centurion said, not my country=not my problem. Until it becomes your problem. Sending them home to crap will only lead to them coming back right?

If we sent them home to a better place than they left, they'd have no reason to leave. Moreover, they likely wouldn't have left in the first place. We're in a world where we simply can't isolate ourselves. It's stupid, shortsighted, and economically damaging.

Help Mexico fix it's economy, raise the value of the peso, and there's no need to come over, except to vacation.

Originally posted by _Phoenix_

Seperation leads to ignorance, which leads to wars, violence and death.

I agree with this sentence 100% I have no problem with my neighborhood been full of hard working legal people from any nation of the world.

But you have no clue or have no seen the conditions of living many of these people endure when illegals, and still they want others to endure this conditions with them when they bring it to their neighborhoods.

We have some areas in which local residents have given up on the illegal population and just moved to other areas trying to avoid the many problems that they bring.

[edit on 22-2-2008 by marg6043]

The illegal alien .Does not pay for there kids to go to school,does not pay for auto insurance,does not pay hospital bills, does not pay for causing accidents, does not pay for crimes, does not pay for police , does not pay for fire departments, does not pay for ambulances, does not pay for welfare, does not pay for your credit card bill when they steal your identity, does not pay the taxes you owe for them using your social security number.
I can keep going on and on. But my point is this woman caused an accident involing several vehicles lots of injuries and even several deaths! And because of our goverment no one involed will be able to do anything other than suffer.No one will be able to sue her or her insurance company cause she doen't have a insurance company. There own insurance companies will fight them tooth and nail cause they have to pay out of pocket with no one to go after them selves.The hospital will have to pay for her medical treatment with no way to ever be repaid.The police, fire department, and ambulances will never be repaid. So every bill that she doesn't pay we as citizens pay with higher insurance bills ,higher hospital bills, and higher taxes.And Mexico will through a fit if the U S goverment treats her as if shes commited a crime.
So to anybody who defends illegals as if there no different are just talking out there a@# to me.Try to defend what i have said here!

Originally posted by TrueAmerican
Ahh, no it is not flawed. It's the friggin truth. You just don't want to face it. If they weren't here, there would not be this story. Truth. Plain and simple.

This thread is ripe with logical fallacies. For example

Misleading vividness
www.nizkor.org...

Misleading Vividness is a fallacy in which a very small number of particularly dramatic events are taken to outweigh a significant amount of statistical evidence. This sort of "reasoning" has the following form:

1. Dramatic or vivid event X occurs (and is not in accord with the majority of the statistical evidence) .
2. Therefore events of type X are likely to occur.

This sort of "reasoning" is fallacious because the mere fact that an event is particularly vivid or dramatic does not make the event more likely to occur, especially in the face of significant statistical evidence.

Questionable Cause
www.nizkor.org...

1. A and B are associated on a regular basis.
2. Therefore A is the cause of B.

The general idea behind this fallacy is that it is an error in reasoning to conclude that one thing causes another simply because the two are associated on a regular basis. More formally, this fallacy is committed when it is concluded that A is the cause of B simply because they are associated on a regular basis. The error being made is that a causal conclusion is being drawn from inadequate evidence.

Division
www.nizkor.org...

The fallacy of Division is committed when a person infers that what is true of a whole must also be true of its constituents and justification for that inference is not provided.

There are two main variants of the general fallacy of Division:

The first type of fallacy of Division is committed when 1) a person reasons that what is true of the whole must also be true of the parts and 2) the person fails to justify that inference with the required degree of evidence. More formally, the "reasoning" follows this sort of pattern:

1. The whole, X, has properties A, B, C, etc.
2. Therefore the parts of X have properties A, B, C, etc.

That this line of reasoning is fallacious is made clear by the following case: 4 is an even number. 1 and 3 are parts of 4. Therefore 1 and 3 are even.

Biased Sample
www.nizkor.org...

Also Known as: Biased Statistics, Loaded Sample, Prejudiced Statistics, Prejudiced Sample, Loaded Statistics, Biased Induction, Biased Generalization
Description of Biased Sample

This fallacy is committed when a person draws a conclusion about a population based on a sample that is biased or prejudiced in some manner. It has the following form:

1. Sample S, which is biased, is taken from population P.
2. Conclusion C is drawn about Population P based on S.

The person committing the fallacy is misusing the following type of reasoning, which is known variously as Inductive Generalization, Generalization, and Statistical Generalization:

1. X% of all observed A's are B''s.
2. Therefore X% of all A's are Bs.

The fallacy is committed when the sample of A's is likely to be biased in some manner. A sample is biased or loaded when the method used to take the sample is likely to result in a sample that does not adequately represent the population from which it is drawn.

There are others, but I've only got time for a few right now.

Originally posted by Rasobasi420
I should also remind all that the 'ignore my neighbor' xenophobic policy is what leads to illegal immigration anyway. Like Centurion said, not my country=not my problem. Until it becomes your problem. Sending them home to crap will only lead to them coming back right?

Your plan for fixing Mexico so that illegals don't come here anymore is? Don't have one, just wishing it was a better world? Well, until you or the others can come up with a workable plan to make illegals want to stay home, please save your utopian dreams. In the meantime (and real world) I would prefer to have them kept home by enforcing the laws we have.

If we sent them home to a better place than they left, they'd have no reason to leave. Moreover, they likely wouldn't have left in the first place. We're in a world where we simply can't isolate ourselves. It's stupid, shortsighted, and economically damaging.

Help Mexico fix it's economy, raise the value of the peso, and there's no need to come over, except to vacation.

Trying to recall your previous positions on this ... So we should go into Mexico - a sovereign country BTW - and "fix" their problems for them? But have you also criticized the U.S. for doing that elsewhere? There's a word for that - if true ...

[edit on 2/22/2008 by centurion1211]

reply to post by centurion1211


You make it sound as if I'm saying we need to invade Mexico. That's just silly my friend.

I'm saying that if Mexico's economy is failing, it will have an impact on us (although not as heavily as many people claim) so we should work with Mexico to fix their economic issues.

It may be difficult for a Centurion to understand, but not all problems can be fixed through military, police, or violent action.

I am sorry to say that the way our nation is doing with the economy right now we can not afford to fix any other nation in the world as we are fighting a trillion dollar war in the middle east and a rising out of control national debt,(you know what every legal american even the unborn owns to the governemnt) so what can we do.

We need to fix our problems first.

[edit on 22-2-2008 by marg6043]

Since you brought it up Marge, the cost of the war dwarfs any economic problems caused by illegal immigrants. As does the cost of wasted efforts like the 'War on drugs' and such.

I agree that we need to fix the problems that we have caused ourselves, but as I mentioned before, the isolationist policies of the US throughout history is part of the reason that Mexico is in the economic condition that it is in. Mexico is our problem, and illegal immigration won't be solved by large fences or vigilante cowboys in pickup trucks driving up and down the border.

Originally posted by marg6043
I am sorry to say that the way our nation is doing with the economy right now we can not afford to fix any other nation in the world as we are fighting a trillion dollar war in the middle east and a rising out of control national debt,(you know what every legal american even the unborn owns to the governemnt) so what can we do.

We need to fix our problems first.

[edit on 22-2-2008 by marg6043]

Thank you Marg for that important insight. And since we don't have our own economic affairs in order, how can these people think Mexico is going to accept "help" from their neighbors to the north? Remember, Mexico doesn't allow illegal imigration into their country. And I'm sure they would not appreciate what they would no doubt consider interference.

Now, having dealt with some of the expected deflection attempts on this thread, the fact remains that an illegal killed 4 kids when there were at least several opportunities for government and law enforcement officials to have avoided this tragedy. Sadly, Minnesota counts itself as a liberal (sanctuary?) state and this is the tragic result.

reply to post by Rasobasi420

The problem in Mexico is the governments they have through the years and Corporate America, when you have governments sucking out the wealth of a nation for the benefit of personal coffers and forget that the people is in need then that is a problem, then it comes corporate America to take advantage of the illegals in American giving the rest of the poor and needy population in Mexico incentives to come to the US.

Originally posted by Rasobasi420
I agree that we need to fix the problems that we have caused ourselves, but as I mentioned before, the isolationist policies of the US throughout history is part of the reason that Mexico is in the economic condition that it is in. Mexico is our problem, and illegal immigration won't be solved by large fences or vigilante cowboys in pickup trucks driving up and down the border.

Again, you seem to want it both ways. No "isolationism" with regards to Mexico, but it's OK with regards to Europe, Asia and the middle east?

And again, that's not the original topic ...

Then answer me this....

If she had gone through the naturalization process and still killed 4 people in this accident, would it have been ok? Acceptable?

This is a neat map that shows any illegal immigrant problems/crimes. Just FYI.

Link to map

Originally posted by Rasobasi420
Then answer me this....

If she had gone through the naturalization process and still killed 4 people in this accident, would it have been ok? Acceptable?

OK. In that case, we probably wouldn't be having this conversation. The deaths would still be tragic, but caused by someone that was supposed to be here. The fault would then obviously lie elsewhere, instead of being an immigration issue - the point of this thread. And maybe some of you might even feel bad for the victims ...

[edit on 2/22/2008 by centurion1211]

Don't tell me how I feel about the victims cap'n. It is absolutely tragic, but I refuse to blame, and scapegoat, and use it as a means to push forth a pre-existing agenda.

Logical Fallacy
Appeal to pity

Description of Appeal to Pity

An Appeal to Pity is a fallacy in which a person substitutes a claim intended to create pity for evidence in an argument. The form of the "argument" is as follows:

1. P is presented, with the intent to create pity.
2. Therefore claim C is true.

Originally posted by Rasobasi420
Don't tell me how I feel about the victims cap'n.

Not telling you anything. Just noting that none of you illegal aliens defenders have ever mentioned the victims (until maybe now because I forced it on you), only that it wasn't fair to blame the "poor" illegal.

reply to post by Rasobasi420


I appreciate your effort, Raso. No really, I do.

But here is the thought process in my mind, and please tell me where I am wrong.

Fact 1: I base my argument on legal versus illegal.

Fact 2: Crossing the border without proper authority is illegal.

Fact 3: Once that threshold is crossed, it is reasonable to ascertain that if that threshold had not been crossed, further actions after that point would not have occurred, had the threshold not been crossed.

Fact 4: This illegal immigrant crossed the border illegally.

Fact 5: He killed 4 people and injured 14 more, whether accidentally or intentionally.

Fact 6: The families of the victims have no real legal recourse against someone who is destitute, with no insurance, and who may not even be sent back to Mexico. They've just got to take it on the chin.

Fact 7: Had the illegal immigrant not crossed the border, little brother Joey or sister Sue would still be alive, smiling, and living their rightful existence. It is worse than sad.

Fact 8: The injured are going to suffer. In some cases for the rest of their lives. Again, without much legal recourse or reimbursement for either their suffering or medical bills, unless their own insurance covers them- which they themselves, or their employer have to pay for.

Fact 9: Left in this terrible situation, I would not fault the family for tracking down that illegal and killing him under justifiable homicide charges. And I can tell you this- if it was my brother that happened to, I wouldn't be writing this post because I'd be in jail right now awaiting charges on the termination of the life of a criminal.

Fact 10: The illegal initiated all this by crossing the border

ILLEGALLY

It's not a moral issue. It is not a racist issue. It is not an ethnic issue. It is a legal issue. And no I would not have the same attitude towards anyone in this country here legally if an accident occurred. Accidents happen. Crossing the border illegally is no accident. It is a crime which leads us into a whole host of other issues that need not be. Just simply if the law was respected.