Illegal Immigrant Kills 4 Children

reply to post by centurion1211


Of course she needs to be held responsible. But you can't hold all illegal immigrants responsible for her actions than you can hold all citizens responsible for the actions of Dahmer or Bundy.

Please refer to my previous post on logical fallacies running rampant on this thread. This one is call Biased Sample.

reply to post by TrueAmerican


Damn, that was good! Don't really know how anyone could argue against any of the points you made. I especially appreciated the way you pointed out that the victims likely have no recourse against the illegals - except maybe the "extreme recourse" you proposed. I might likely find myself in a similar situation (jail cell) as what you said if somethig like this happened to a member of my family. No way I could just pass it off as "we should have given them more money, or aid or whatever" and then live with myself.

Originally posted by Rasobasi420
reply to post by centurion1211

 

Of course she needs to be held responsible. But you can't hold all illegal immigrants responsible for her actions than you can hold all citizens responsible for the actions of Dahmer or Bundy.

I knew this (false) argument was coming. You are wrong. In this case I can blame all illegal immigrants because their first official act in the U.S. was to break the law. Doesn't matter what their reasons for breaking our laws were, just as it doesn't matter what a bank robbers reasons might be. Surely you're not advocating that we empty our jails just because you could find a reason to feel sorry enough for all the criminals to justify releasing them?

[edit on 2/22/2008 by centurion1211]

Making Mexico better... Like McCain wanting to pass a bill that would take American Tax Money to pay for UHC in Mexico?(Yet American money being spent on American citizens for UHC is evil)

Round em up and help them. They want out of Mexico? Fine, ship them to Africa. Hey, they're out of Mexico right?

Fact 2.3billion dollars is lost as it is sent to Mexico by its illegals in America to family still in Mexico.

Fact 4 kids would still be alive if this woman was sent back or treated as she was, an invader set on destroying America and executed. Hey, Germany invades France, WWII, Mexico invades America, "How dare you want them kicked out of the country!"

Originally posted by centurion1211

I knew this (false) argument was coming. You are wrong. In this case I can blame all illegal immigrants because their first official act in the U.S. was to break the law.

So you'd blame all jaywalkers for the acts of Dahmer and Bundy.....

Doesn't matter what their reasons for breaking our laws were, just as it doesn't matter what a bank robbers reasons might be. Surely you're not advocating that we empty our jails just because you could find a reason to feel sorry for them?

Don't know where you're coming from with this. Also, not exactly sure what it's supposed to mean.

Please clarify.

reply to post by centurion1211


Well, that's because I have brothers who feel the same way. If an illegal killed me it would cause such a rage in my brothers I have no doubt they would seek revenge. I mean really, enough is enough. They would also never consider such an action against a legal citizen.

Sure, you could say that an accident is an accident, whether it happens from an illegal or not. There is a logic there. It's just not a logic that I choose to subscribe to, in this particular issue, and for multitudes of reasons.

Originally posted by HHH Is King
Fact 2.3billion dollars is lost as it is sent to Mexico by its illegals in America to family still in Mexico.

How is it lost? Because it isn't spent by Americans in America? Then I suggest that you chastise all who buy foreign cars or electronics. Did you ever own a Nintendo?

And 2.3 Billion dollars is chump change in the grand scale of things

Fact 4 kids would still be alive if this woman was sent back or treated as she was, an invader set on destroying America and executed.

So lets execute the illegalls!!! yeah!

Mexico invades America, "How dare you want them kicked out of the country!"

Mexico hasn't invaded anything. Quit whining.

Originally posted by Rasobasi420

Originally posted by centurion1211

I knew this (false) argument was coming. You are wrong. In this case I can blame all illegal immigrants because their first official act in the U.S. was to break the law.

So you'd blame all jaywalkers for the acts of Dahmer and Bundy.....

Don't remotely know where you are coming from on this, please clarify.

Doesn't matter what their reasons for breaking our laws were, just as it doesn't matter what a bank robbers reasons might be. Surely you're not advocating that we empty our jails just because you could find a reason to feel sorry for them?

Don't know where you're coming from with this. Also, not exactly sure what it's supposed to mean.

Please clarify.

If this needs clarification, then it helps explain many problems we have in this country. I'll try to keep it simple. Breaking the law is breaking the law and it is wrong to break the law - especially if others die beccause you've broken the law. We also have a process in the U.S. where "bad" laws can be changed. It shouldn't be the case that you, or anyone else can ignore immigration laws solely because you feel sorry for the illegals.

Again what about the victims (with no recourse) that the illegals leave in their wake?

[edit on 2/22/2008 by centurion1211]

Originally posted by TrueAmerican
Well, that's because I have brothers who feel the same way. If an illegal killed me it would cause such a rage in my brothers I have no doubt they would seek revenge. I mean really, enough is enough. They would also never consider such an action against a legal citizen.

Your brother would seek revenge against a foreigner who killed you, but not a citizen? Seems like he'd be using your death as an excuse to act out of a pre-existing hatred to me. If he really cared about your death, he should seek revenge against anyone who killed you, blind of race, creed or nationality.

Sure, you could say that an accident is an accident, whether it happens from an illegal or not. There is a logic there. It's just not a logic that I choose to subscribe to, in this particular issue, and for multitudes of reasons.

Logic isn't something that you can just agree with or disagree with. Either something is true or not.

And to your previous post

by that same token, for our own safety, we should all be locked up right? Cars should be criminalized. After all, if no one drives, no one suffers from a car accident.

Originally posted by centurion1211
If this needs clarification, then it helps explain many problems we have in this country. I'll try to keep it simple. Breaking the law is breaking the law and it is wrong to break the law - especially if others die beccause you've broken the law. We also have a process in the U.S. where "bad" laws can be changed. It shouldn't be the case that you, or anyone else can ignore immigration laws solely because you feel sorry for the illegals.

Again what about the victims (with no recourse) that the illegals leave in their wake?

Ah,

No one died because she was here illegally. However, that apparently is the part you have a problem with. People died because of reckless driving, which is a separate law all together.

And again, you group all illegals into one classification. I've already pointed out this fallacy.

Originally posted by Rasobasi420
Originally posted by HHH Is King
Fact 2.3billion dollars is lost as it is sent to Mexico by its illegals in America to family still in Mexico.

How is it lost? Because it isn't spent by Americans in America? Then I suggest that you chastise all who buy foreign cars or electronics. Did you ever own a Nintendo?

I have a better idea. Let's just call the $2.3 billion (or whatever the actual amount is) that illegals send back to Mexico our "foreign aid" to Mexico and be done with it.

Fact 4 kids would still be alive if this woman was sent back or treated as she was, an invader set on destroying America and executed.

So lets execute the illegalls!!! yeah!

Sending them back and keeping them out would be sufficient.

Mexico invades America, "How dare you want them kicked out of the country!"

Mexico hasn't invaded anything. Quit whining.

Guess you skipped all the news items and threads here about border incursions by the Mexican army and the groups springing up here that favor giving back the SW U.S. to Mexico. It's only a small step from there to guerilla warfare in our cities such as LA, San Diego and Miami.

[edit on 2/22/2008 by centurion1211]

Originally posted by Rasobasi420

Originally posted by centurion1211
If this needs clarification, then it helps explain many problems we have in this country. I'll try to keep it simple. Breaking the law is breaking the law and it is wrong to break the law - especially if others die beccause you've broken the law. We also have a process in the U.S. where "bad" laws can be changed. It shouldn't be the case that you, or anyone else can ignore immigration laws solely because you feel sorry for the illegals.

Again what about the victims (with no recourse) that the illegals leave in their wake?

Ah,

No one died because she was here illegally. However, that apparently is the part you have a problem with. People died because of reckless driving, which is a separate law all together.

And again, you group all illegals into one classification. I've already pointed out this fallacy.

Is it your contention that those kids would have died anyway even if the illegal hadn't killed them? If so, how callous is that?

Don't know why it is so difficult for you to understand the simple concept of: woman not here illegally, 4 Minnesota kids still alive. There cannot be a rational argument against that fact.

Raso, the buck stops at the border. It's just that simple. You cross it illegally and everything after that is secondary. You can try all you want to deviate from that issue, but the bottom line is that there is no argument against that. If there was, I probably wouldn't feel the way I do about it.

Some people want to bring in all this other stuff to try and justify something that is ILLEGAL. I mean Christ, how many times do people have to scream this? Can you not get it through your head? Obviously not, which is why I am done with this. bye.

reply to post by Crakeur


I respectfully beg to disagree with you. This illegal alien had no drivers license. Now why do you think this is? Perhpas, it is because she was afraid to go to a government agency, and be discovered. She also doesn't bother to learn to drive, for the same reason. He is just one link to the dangers of illegal alien drivers:

www.wnd.com...

Twelve Americans are murdered every day by illegal aliens, according to statistics released by Rep. Steve King, R-Iowa.

In addition, see this site for some horrific numbers:

mainstreamiowan.blogspot.com...

This information is confirmed by Mike Cutler, a former senior special agent with the U.S. Immigration and Naturalization Service, who says the high number of Americans killed by illegal aliens is only part of the collateral damage that comes with tolerating illegal immigration. An adviser for Family Security Measures, he estimates some 2,158 murders are committed every year by illegal aliens in the United States. Here are some statistics that bear out this report:
Ninety-five percent of warrants for murder in Los Angeles, Calif. are for illegal aliens.

Eighty-three percent of warrants for murder in Phoenix, Ariz. are for illegal aliens.

Eighty-six percent of warrants for murder in Albuquerque, N.M., are for illegal aliens.

Seventy-five percent of people on the "Most Wanted" list in Los Angeles, Phoenix, and Albuquerque are illegal aliens.

Twenty-five percent of all inmates in California detention centers are Mexican nationals who are here illegally.

Forty percent of all inmates in Arizona detention centers are Mexican nationals here illegally.

Forty-eight percent of all inmates in New Mexico detention centers are Mexican nationals here illegally.

Twenty-nine percent (630,000) convicted illegal alien felons occupy our state and federal prisons at a cost of $1.6 billion annually.

More than 53 percent of burglaries in California, New Mexico, Nevada, Arizona, and Texas are perpetrated by illegal aliens.

More than half of all gang members in Los Angeles are illegal aliens from south of the border.

More than 70 percent of all cars stolen in Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, Nevada, and California are stolen by illegals.

Forty-seven percent of drivers stopped by police in California have no license, insurance, or registration; and of that 47 percent, 92 percent are illegal aliens.

Sixty-three percent of stopped drivers in Arizona have no license, insurance, or registration for the vehicle. Of that 63 percent, 97 percent are illegal aliens.

Sixty-six percent of stopped drivers in New Mexico have no license, insurance, or registration; and of that 66 percent, 98 percent are illegals.

A recent study by Pew Hispanic Center reveals Hispanics are two times more likely to be incarcerated than non-Hispanics.

They are 3.8 times more likely to be imprisoned for murder than non-Hispanics and Hispanic youth are more likely to be found in gangs.

Fifty-five percent of Mexican Americans consider themselves to be Mexican first.

reply to post by Rasobasi420

That's ridiculous. There's no evidence that says the proportionate crime rate committed by illegal aliens is any higher than those committed by citizens.

To the contrary, there are plenty of statistics that show EXACTLY that. Look at my post above.

reply to post by ProfEmeritus


Sorry dude, I don't believe most of that list
www.truthorfiction.com...

1. 40% of all workers in L.A. County (L.A. County has 10.2 million people) Fiction!
Economic Roundtable in Los Angeles issued a report in 2005 on what it called "L.A's Off-The-Books labor force." Its research was about the city of Los Angeles, not the entire county, and concluded that there were 3,908,000 wage earners in the city and about 972,000 "informal workers," meaning they were getting paid under the table. It does not break down how many of them might have been illegal aliens, but the percentage was no where near 40 percent. Los Angeles Almanac estimated number of "unreported jobs" in 2005 in Los Angeles County at 643,000 with a number of workers at 4,090.630.

2. 95% of warrants for murder in Los Angeles are for illegal aliens-Mostly Truth!
The most commonly quoted source for this is a report by Heather McDonald and published by the Center for Immigration Studies. She repeated her research on April 13, 2005 in testimony before the House Judiciary Subcommittee on "Immigration, Border Security, and Claims" saying that 95 percent of all outstanding warrants for homicide in Los Angeles targeted illegal aliens.

3. 75% of people on the most wanted list in Los Angeles are illegal aliens-Unproven!
We could not find anything to substantiate this. If you browse through the Most Wanted list for the Los Angeles Police Department there are a lot of foreign-born listed, but not how many of them may be illegal aliens.

4. Over 2/3 of all births in Los Angeles County are to illegal alien Mexicans on Medi-Cal, whose births were paid for by taxpayers-Inaccurate!
According to a report by the Los Angeles Times, about half the births in Los Angeles County in 2004 were to undocumented women. In 1989 California required by law that the state Medi-Cal program be available to pregnant women living in poverty.

5. Nearly 25% of all inmates in California detention centers are Mexican nationals here illegally-Fiction!
National statistics would tend to suggest that this claim is not true. A 2007 report by the Immigration Policy Center said that among men 18-39, which represents the majority of prison inmates, the incarceration rate of foreign born was 0.7 percent while the incarceration rate of native born was 3.5 percent. Foreign born Mexicans had an incarceration rate of 0.7 percent in 2000 compared with 5.9 percent for native born men of Mexican descent. The report did not say how many of the foreign born were illegal. A 1993 report to the California Joint Committee on Prison Construction and Operations estimated that more than 15 percent of the 116,000 state prison inmates were illegal aliens. In her congressional testimony (referenced above), Heather McDonald said that the L.A. County Sheriff reported in 2000 that 23% of inmates in county jails were deportable, according to the New York Times. That's all inmates, however, not just Mexicans.

6. Over 300,000 illegal aliens in Los Angeles County are living in garages-Unproven!
It is known that large numbers of illegal immigrants are crammed into houses and apartments that are too small for the number of people living in them and that others are living in garages, but we could not find anyone who kept statistics on garage-dwellers or how anybody would know their numbers.

7. The FBI reports half of all gang members in Los Angeles are most likely illegal aliens from south of the border-Unproven!
It is known that gangs do include illegal aliens but coming up with a reliable statistic would be difficult. Again, the gangs operate underground.

8. Nearly 60% of all occupants of HUD properties are illegal-Unproven!

Lists like these go around fairly often, and it looks like most are totally bogus and designed to incite fear and hatred.

The 95% figure in #2 is interesting though. I wonder though, how many of the victims of these murders were also illegal, and if the violence was gang related.


[edit on 22-2-2008 by Rasobasi420]

reply to post by ProfEmeritus


Seems to me that the issue isn't that they're in the country illegally, but that they're driving illegally. So, if we give them drivers licenses, and let them get insurance we'd no longer have the issue that True American was complaining about (the no recourse on behalf of the victim thing). Right? And it would be much less taxing on our economy than implementing wide spread deportation sweeps.

I'm assuming that it's a financial thing after all. Aren't they taking our jobs or something like that?

reply to post by Rasobasi420

Sorry dude, I don't believe most of that list

Well, that of course is your prerogative, to pick and choose what to believe, but the statistics came from Mike Cutler, a former senior special agent with the U.S. Immigration and Naturalization Service.
Of course, then there can never be a dialog here, because anything that you cite can be discounted by anyone that disagrees with you. If that is the case, why bother to have a discussion?

In addition, the bottom line, which has been mentioned by several posters here, is that they are ILLEGAL. Which part of that word do you NOT understand? They are BREAKING the law, by being here.

Sure, they're illegal by being here.

My problem is when someone begins equating the guy trying to get a little money for his broken family with a murderer because he's doing what he has to do. When people start blasting off about everyone who is an illegal immigrant as if they were the one who sideswiped a busload of kids.

This conversation invariably leads to the demand for people to be ID'd for citizenship at every street corner. After all, how else are you going to tell if someone is legal or not?

That will, of course lead to profiling of people based on skin color or mannerisms. Which, by most, can't be discerned between the various possible Spanish speaking countries of origin. This includes Puerto Rico by the way, who's population are born American citizens.

And of course illegal immigrants from Canada and/or Europe won't be looked at twice by immigration officers. As a matter of fact, I'm good friends with a girl from Montreal who never went home after College. She's an illegal alien. She works as a bartender at a local pub, and her shifts could certainly be covered by an American. But of course, they'd never be touched because she's of a 'more pleasant complexion'.

If you're going to make a thread intendant on bashing a group based on the actions of an individual, there are a lot more dangerous things we can look at that are much more damaging to the state of our union, and should be eradicated long before anything discussed in this thread.

As a constructon supervisor in Florida, I can tell you that the great majority of the men I work with every day are illegal.
Most all of them are good people, Ive been to Christenings, 16 B-Days for thier girls, Weddings, birthdays, the guys that I like have also been to my place for beers and to break bread.
I also know more of them by far that have been sent to prison for a laundry list of offenses.
Before the South Americans started showing up(I've been in construction a very long time) up till 15 or so years ago, these jobs were all held by black and white Americans.
"jobs Americans won't do" is a lie.
The Americans I worked with before were not going to jail in the numbers that I now see the illegals going.
Percentage wise or in any other ratio.