The Hero Pattern (Could Jesus be fake?)...

Originally posted by adigregorio

...In order to thwart the prediction, Acrisius had an underground room built of bronze, where he kept Danae under guard, but this did not prevent Danae from being seduced. Some think that Proetus was the culprit, but most say that Zeus seduced her in the form of a shower of gold which fell through a crack in the roof of her womb.

(Agdistis)
Zeus split some semen on the Earth which begot Agdistis, a hermaphrodite. The other gods castrated Agdistis and from his/her penis sprang an almond tree. Nana, the daughter of Sangarius, picked an almond from the tree, placed it in her lap, became pregnant, and gave birth to ATTIS...

In another version Zeus, having tried in vain to marry Cybele, let some of his semen fall on a nearby rock. This begot the hermaphrodite Agdistis. Dionysus made Agdistis drunk and castrated him/her. From the blood grew a pomegranate tree. Nana became pregnant by inserting one of the fruits in her womb, and gave birth to Attis.

(Caeculus)
There lived in this country two brothers called the Depidii, who were shepherds. One day when their sister was sitting near the hearth, a spark flew out of the fire and jumped into her bosom. She conceived a child who was regarded as a son of Vulcan...

Flora/Juno

Flora gave her (Juno) a flower which would make a woman pregnant by touching it. Juno then gave birth to Mars without prior sexual relations with Jupiter.

**NOTE Jupiter is a god, not a planet in this reference**

Gaia

Without the aid of any male, she gave birth to URANUS, the mountains, and PONTUS.

**NOTE Uranus is a god not a planet in this reference**

Himalia

The miller's wife, a Nymph fo Rhodeswith whom Zeus had intercourse, coming upon her as a shower of rain...

My count is 4 human virgins and 2 goddess virgins. So you are incorrect about there being one or two virgin births, other than Jesus. I am going to go through the whole book just to get the rest of them.

Nana and Danae were the ones I was thinking of but this is what I have read about the others:

Agdistis: Was the product of Zeus committing rape. Hence, sex.
Caeculus: You'll have to cite me links for your external source. Everything I have read shows him be the child of Vulcan (fire) so I'm not sure how fire could have sex. In some other accounts Juno and Vulcan had sex to conceive Caeculus.
Juno: Again, was married but this time to Jupiter and they had many child-gods through sex inside marriage.
Gaia: The godess personification of earth so how can the earth be a virgin?
Himalia: Had sex with Zeus to bear three children.

reply to post by AshleyD


My source is a book "The Dictionary of Classical Mythology."

Source

If you would like I can take pictures of the said references to add credibility to my claims.

Nana and Danae were the ones I was thinking of but this is what I have read about the others:

May I ask what you read to get these conclusions? I will be going out this evening to get some more books on the subject, and I would like to get one with such a different variation.

reply to post by adigregorio


That's cool. The one I'm using for this discussion is Bulfinch's Mythology. It's HUGE (larger than a dictionary) and leaves no one out.

Originally posted by AshleyD
Nana and Danae were the ones I was thinking of but this is what I have read about the others:

Juno: Again, was married but this time to Jupiter and they had many child-gods through sex inside marriage.

If you would read my excerpt Mars was before she had relations with Juipter.

Originally posted by AshleyD
Gaia: The godess personification of earth so how can the earth be a virgin?

Gaia: The godess personification of earth

Originally posted by AshleyD
Himalia: Had sex with Zeus to bear three children.

Raining on someone is not rape, nor sex. At least not by the standards required to deem one a virgin.

Himalia

The miller's wife, a Nymph fo Rhodeswith whom Zeus had intercourse, coming upon her as a shower of rain

I will have more human/goddess virgin births soon. Remember, I am just showing the the idea of a virgin birth was not a new one. And this book seems to be lacking any depth into other myths/religous gods. Egyptian, Mayan, and a plethora of others. So I will be getting books on those subjects to add to this part of the discussion.

reply to post by adigregorio


I know the concept of a virgin birth isn't new. Virgo, anyone? Not to mention the Messianic prophecies dating back to Genesis regarding a virgin birth. I know it didn't start with Christianity. Christians did not pull the idea of a virgin birth out of their behinds. It was predicted up to 1,400 years before their time regarding the coming Messiah. Christ Mythers often forget about that part that Christians did not invent the concept of a virgin birth regarding the Messiah.

reply to post by AshleyD


May I ask for the exact excerpts that discount what I typed? Other than just stating that what you read differs from my source.

I am not saying you are lying, but I have provided excerpts from my source to defend my side.

reply to post by adigregorio


Since it's not online and I don't have the luxury of simply copying and pasting, I don't have time to sit here and type out everything concerning all the figures in question but let's use Gaea as an example.

Gaea or Ge, the personification of the Earth, called Tellus by the Romans. Described as the first being that sprang from Chaos. She gave birth to Uranus and Pontus, the Sea. Gaea and Uranus, that is Earth and Heaven, were the parents of the Titans.

Pages 5-7 go into detail but I don't have the time to type out three pages of material. It tells us Gaea and Uranus were married and they brought forth the Titans and others. But even if they were not, for argument's sake, how could the earth be a virgin? It's all just circles and word games.

Here is another one for good measure then I will stop. Sorry, but each figure has several pages worth of information so it would be impossible for me to type it out. lol

Juno:

The 'venerable ox-eyed' wife of Jupiter and queen of heaven of Roman mythology. She is identified with the Greek Hera, was the special protector of marriage and of woman and was represented as a war goddess.

So, we know she was married. But all the tales about her are found in pages (taken directly from the index):

8, 28-33, 35-36, 65, 73, 84, 89, 100, 111, 128-131, 134-135, 145, 161, 192-193, 196-198, 231-232, 244-248, 251, and 255.

You can see how I wouldn't have the energy to type everything. Nothing shows me she was a virgin mother to my knowledge. Married people have sex.

And maybe this will help with some things:

Pagan Figure Inspiration (Including Virgin Births)
Virgin Birth: Yes or No?
More virgin birth discussion within another article

reply to post by AshleyD


With the Earth maybe. I am willing to omit "goddess" virgins. However that still leaves us with 4 human virgins. Unless I see something to the contrary.

And, how many of these virgin births mirror the others? I would say none, which would be an example of why Jesus' birth has not comparison. For if it did, people would have said "Jesus? Nooo, that's just So-and-so, I remember that story from way back when."

I will still dig up some more virgin births, but I fear this is dragging us off topic. In my opinion, the story of Jesus presented in the Bible is just another Epic. Complete with a cadre of heroes and supernatural villains. I think I have done an excellent job in showing how my opinion may be justified. I still want to get some Egyptian gods/heroes in here just because Moses (20/22) was taught by their high-ups. I think there were be some mirrored attributes between those "heroes" and Jesus. Just as there are mirrored attributes between Greek/Roman "heroes" and Jesus.

An interesting side note, it seems Pandora's story is quite similar to the story of creation. Well minus Adam, and the fact that man already existed. Of course, I noticed a thread here on ATS that claimed man already existed when Adam/Eve were expelled from Eden so I figured what the heck...

Source--"Dictionary of Classical Mythology"

Pandora

The first woman created by Hephaestus and Athena, on the instructions of Zeus...Pandora was fashioned in the image of the goddesses...Pandora had hardly reached Earth when she lifted the lid of a great pot and released all the ills in the world...Other versions say that the pot contained every blessing..By opening it she let all the good things escape and return to heavens instead of staying among mankind. That is why men are afflicted with every form of evil.

Sounds similar to the apple being akin to sin, and that is why men are born into this world with sin.

As for virgin births, I am through "S" in the dictionary and no more have come forth. But I ran a google search on virgin births, and a plethora of links were given.

Since no one has asked for more examples I am going to leave it be for now, and resume the main topic. In my opinion, Jesus was not represented truthfully in the Bible. All accounts of his deeds are hearsay, at least the ones that have been provided so far. I have yet to see any proof that the gospels were written by eye witnesses.

I have been finding myself wondering what the average lifespan was back in 37AD. I am sure some research will show an approximation. This, paired with what we have been told with regarding the death of the gospel writers might come in handy. This is only if the topic is going to turn to the angle that the gospels were written by eye witnesses.

And let us not forget about allegory, which was highly common in the gospel days...

al·le·go·ry /ˈæləˌgɔri, -ˌgoʊri/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[al-uh-gawr-ee, -gohr-ee] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun, plural -ries.
1. a representation of an abstract or spiritual meaning through concrete or material forms; figurative treatment of one subject under the guise of another.
2. a symbolical narrative: the allegory of Piers Plowman.
3. emblem (def. 3).

Source

So even if the gospels were written by someone that had been present, how do we know that it is not an allegorical document?

Originally posted by adigregorio
I hope everyone reading realizes I am not asking rhetorical questions. Here are my questions again...

Where are all of the defenders? I see them in thread after thread when Christianity is questioned. Here I question the existence of Jesus, and all I hear are crickets! Do they not have any answers for the "Hero Pattern"?


Those are the questions I have asked so far. And I am still waiting for answers. Of course I am beginning to think that the "defenders" want this thread to vanish into oblivion (talk about a conspiracy

). Just an FYI, I have plenty more research to add, I was waiting for responses/debate to add it.

adigregorio-

I have recently stumbled upon your thread and after reading the points you have to make, i feel compelled to respond. I cannot speak for other Christians and their lack of feedback to your argument, but I will say this:

The hero pattern definitely makes sense, since it makes a great storyline. It glorifies a person into a model figure to look to in times of dispair. However, you cannot discount the fact that in all of the "hero" examples, the hero is glorified in physical, as well as social status. I understand that you have taken a text book list of the character traits past heroes have possessed, and in short Jesus may possess a number of those traits. However, he was not a physically attractive man, nor was his social status in high regards. He hung out with the outcasts, ate with tax collectors and prostitutes. Also, Jesus was not just the Son of God, he IS God. He claimed to be such. He is described as The Great I AM, the Alpha and Omega, the First and the Last. Everything that was made was made in Him. These do not follow the traits of the text book hero.

In short, Jesus is unique from any other hero. He has authority over all of mankind, the universe and everything in it. You find me a hero that comes from everlasting, as Jesus claimed to be, and then we MIGHT have something interesting. You find me a hero who's very life and message has changed the hearts of men world over, then we can talk. You find me a hero, who has healed life-long addictions by the very mention of his name, a hero by who's life and death alone have shaped an entire culture, then we might have something. This textbook list of "hero patterns" fails to convince me of anything other than the fact that some stories have similarities, and that we, as people, are inherently connected and similar, being that we are all created in the image of God. That is all.

Originally posted by adigregorio
I hope everyone reading realizes I am not asking rhetorical questions. Here are my questions again...

Where are all of the defenders? I see them in thread after thread when Christianity is questioned. Here I question the existence of Jesus, and all I hear are crickets! Do they not have any answers for the "Hero Pattern"?


Those are the questions I have asked so far. And I am still waiting for answers. Of course I am beginning to think that the "defenders" want this thread to vanish into oblivion (talk about a conspiracy

). Just an FYI, I have plenty more research to add, I was waiting for responses/debate to add it.

adigregorio-

I have recently stumbled upon your thread and after reading the points you have to make, i feel compelled to respond. I cannot speak for other Christians and their lack of feedback to your argument, but I will say this:

The hero pattern definitely makes sense, since it makes a great storyline. It glorifies a person into a model figure to look to in times of dispair. However, you cannot discount the fact that in all of the "hero" examples, the hero is glorified in physical, as well as social status. I understand that you have taken a text book list of the character traits past heroes have possessed, and in short Jesus may possess a number of those traits. However, he was not a physically attractive man, nor was his social status in high regards. He hung out with the outcasts, ate with tax collectors and prostitutes. Also, Jesus was not just the Son of God, he IS God. He claimed to be such. He is described as The Great I AM, the Alpha and Omega, the First and the Last. Everything that was made was made in Him. These do not follow the traits of the text book hero.

In short, Jesus is unique from any other hero. He has authority over all of mankind, the universe and everything in it. You find me a hero that comes from everlasting, as Jesus claimed to be, and then we MIGHT have something interesting. You find me a hero who's very life and message has changed the hearts of men world over, then we can talk. You find me a hero, who has healed life-long addictions by the very mention of his name, a hero by who's life and death alone have shaped an entire culture, then we might have something. This textbook list of "hero patterns" fails to convince me of anything other than the fact that some stories have similarities, and that we, as people, are inherently connected and similar, being that we are all created in the image of God. That is all.

What's fake and what's real? Where do you draw the line? Sure Paul, among others, put a seminationalistic spin and through assoication of mythological fokelore made "Jesus" to be less human and more Idol.

But does this make "Jesus" fake? Can the ill theoritical errors of one age be judged so harshly from another? Shouldn't we consern ourselves with our own errors rather then that error long ago?

The truth is out there. You can read all about it in the Urantia book. Will you be able to believe the truth when you see it? That's the real question you should be asking yourself.

I can understand wanting to stick up for something you believe.But quiet frankly not everyone believes in God or Jesus infact alot of people believe in something else or that life is just life nothing else.Christians I have talked to always try to convert without thinking that maybe I just don't share what they do.Yes there is a Bible but there is also the Tanakh,the Qur'an and many other books that show so many differences.Not to mention all of the other religions that believe in a different God,Gods or Goddess.I grew up Christian I followed the teaching,read the Bible,went to Sunday School and was even Mary in the Christmas play for many years.But the more and more I read about religious "Holy Wars" what other "good" believers have done to each other and what is being taught,the more I think that the good "Books" (Bible,Tanakh,Qur'an) are being used as the reader sees fit.And have always been used as so.People just can't seem to agree to disagree.There is no tolerance anywhere anymore.

I notice that interest has been shown in the "realness" of JC, due to another thread being up and about.

The Evidence For Jesus' Existence is Overwhelming

Of course I am still waiting for my 2 pieces of 'proof' in this thread. Thought I would bump it back up to let people know that I was still waiting.

Oh, and the other thread didn't offer that evidence

Of course, I know why the silence is. If you do not have an answer to the question, pretend that no one asked it.

1. Eyewitness account
and
2. 'Official' document

**que crickets

EDIT--
FYI, about a month ago an article on MSNBC stated that there was no historical evidence for the JC, I am hunting for it now...

[edit on 4/26/2009 by adigregorio]

I do not think this is the article, but I can't seem to find the "right one" (I knew I should have bookmarked it!) However, this link is notable because the person being interviewed is a believer.

I will quote parts, but please read the whole. The reason I quote this, because the person had a perfect chance to list of "Real" evidence.

(Real = The two things I want as evidence)

DN: For Christian believers, there is no doubt that Jesus existed. Is there a strong argument for an historical Jesus, though, having lived sometime around the first century A.D.?

RH: Yes, I think there is. The evidence comes from the Bible itself, but not in the way you might suppose.

DN: But Jesus is said to have been born of a poor family in Nazareth, and he conducted much of his ministry at the Sea of Galilee?

RH: Precisely. There is no reason why Jesus should have come from Nazareth, which was never mentioned in the prophecies, or that he should have begun his work at the Sea of Galilee. These are just two of the incongruities that did not conform to the preexisting beliefs about the Messiah. It is therefore likely that Jesus actually did exist, since there is no reason for these mismatches.

(Bolding done by me)

This is a SUPER POINT!! Please take note I will have a quiz after this post!

DN: Is there any direct evidence for Jesus' existence outside of the Bible?

RH: Josephus, a first century Jewish historian, wrote of Jesus in the Greek version of the "Antiquities of the Jews." He described Jesus as a "wise man" and a "doer of wonderful works." The fact that Josephus referenced Jesus reveals that stories about Jesus were already gaining momentum.

Many believers use this as "non-bible" proof, please take note at when he wrote, and I quote (again ): A First century Jewish historian... And the person goes on to say that it shows "stories" are gaining momentum. So even she doesn't think this is an eye-witness.

All excerpts from this SOURCE

Giving the thread another bump, the 'Why are there Christian debunking threads' is getting a lot of off topic BS about 'proof of JC'.

I thought I would help out a fellow thread starter, and keep hyjackings to a minimum. Of course this is futile I fear, for the Christians avoid this thread like work on the Sabbath.

reply to post by adigregorio


I'm sorry that I really can provide a logistical way to prove God. I could go even farther if you want....but the code matrix findings should be sufficient especially since the skeptics suck at beating the pro-codes researchers. Of course since the Bible says no sex before marriage an insignificant finding by scientific standards in Moby Dick puts that to rest. Do further research and God is indeed very real. SENTENCES OF INFO. Off topic maybe, but your own blindness nonetheless. Man can be great, but God is greater than everything.

Skeptic: Best matrix is 1 chance in 100,000.

Every code believer: EVERY matrix is 1 chance in 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 x 10 to the 50th power or similar numbers. Explain it to me.

EDIT

On top of that, what about the predictions that have been detailed beforehand. And by detailed I mean detailed. How do you explain the fact that these are encoded into surface text about that very same topic, when the surface text is not added yet? Hmmm..purpose purpose. I'm not trying to be haughty just trying to show you that there is something mystical about the world we live in. Otherwise we wouldn't debate the existence of Jesus or God. Belief would be meaningless without skepticism. Why would you want a
humanity to not have free will?

[edit on 30-4-2009 by watchtheashes]