The Hero Pattern (Could Jesus be fake?)...

Alright, how to begin. Well I will start off with my beliefs in relation to this thread.

I do not believe that Jesus existed. Well not in the way he is described in various religious works. I used to be a Christian, then a Mormon (good god), then I was a born again Christian, and now I am bordering on Agnostic/Atheist (I do know the difference between the two). My "falling out" had/has nothing to do with me being angry with what Christians call "God". Nor does it have to do with arrogance, or pride, or my ego. It has to do with logical thinking on my part. And now, before I get to the meat of this thread, I want to state that these are my beliefs. I do not want, or assume, that they should be taken as fact. I believe everyone needs to figure out what is right for them. What is right for me, will not be right for another.

The Hero

The hero is a chapter in a book titled, "The Hero, A Study in Tradition, Myth, and Drama." And this chapter is the basis of this thread. I have run several searches both for the author of the book, Lord Raglan, and the title itself. And only one post has come up. This post just mentioned the authors name so I decided to give some light to what he has done. From the book, I can gather that the first printing was around 1885. I could be mistaken, and apologies in advance if I am. With that said on to "The Hero"

This is the scale on which a hero is judged.

1: The Hero's mother is a royal virgin;
2: His father is a king, and
3: Often a near relative of his mother, but
4: The circumstances of his conception are unusual, and
5: He is also reputed to be the son of a god.
6: At birth an attempt is made, usually by his father or his maternal grandfather, to kill him, but
7: He his spirited away, and
8: Reared by foster-parents in a far country.
9: We are told nothing of his childhood, but
10: On reaching manhood he returns or goes to his future kingdom.
11: After a victory over the king and/or a giant, dragon, or wild beast,
12: He marries a princess, often the daughter of his predecessor, and
13: Becomes king.
14: For a time he reigns uneventfully, and
15: Prescribes laws, but
16: Later he loses favor with the gods and/or his subjects, and
17: Is driven from the throne and city, after which
18: He meets with a mysterious death,
19: Often at the top of a hill.
20: His children, if any, do not succeed him.
21: His body is not buried, but nevertheless
22: He has one or more holy sepulchres.

Now I am sure many of you have tried applying this to various heroes/gods and have already been chalking up points. In the book (same chapter) Lord Raglan does the same thing. Here are a few of his "heroes"

Oedipus

His mother, Jocasta, is (1) a princess, and his father is (2) King Laius, who, like her, is (3) of the line of Cadmus. He has sworn to have no connection with her, but (4) does so when drunk, probably (5) in the character of Dionysos. Laius (6) tries to kill Oedipus at birth, but (7) he is spirited away, and (8) reared by the King of Corinth. (9) We hear nothing of his childhood, but (10) on reaching manhood he returns to Thebes, after (11) gaining victories over his father and the Sphinx. He (12) marries Jocasta, and (13) becomes king. For some years he (14) reigns uneventfully, but (16) later comes to be regarded as the cause of a plague, and (17) is deposed and driven into exile. He meets with (18) a mysterious death at (19) a place near Athens called the Steep Pavement. He is succeeded by (20) Creon, though whom he was deposed, and though (21) the place of his burial is uncertain, he has (22) several holy sepulchres. He does not seem to be regarded as a legislator; apart from that we may award him full marks.

[edit] Title edit

[edit on 2/15/2008 by adigregorio]

Now for one that is more well known

Hercales

His mother, Alcmene, is (1) a royal virgin, and his father is (2) King Amphitryon, who is (3) her first cousin. He is reputed to be (5) the son of Zeus, who (4) visited Alcmene in the guise of Amphitryon. At birth (6) Hera tries to kill him. On reaching manhood he (11) performs feats and wins victories, after which he (10) proceeds to Calydon, where he (12) marries the king's daughter, and (13) becomes ruler. He remains there (14) quietly for some years, after which an accidental manslaughter compels him (17) to flee from the country. He disappears (18) froma funeral pyre (19) on the top of Mount Aeta. His sons (20) do not succeed him. His body (21) is not found, and (22) he is worshipped in temples.
He scores seventeen points.

Now all of this is fine and dandy. How did I come to the conclusion that Jesus did not exist? Well that comes a little later in his "heroes".

The lives of the Old Testament heros have been heavily edited, but the same pattern is nevertheless apparent. Let us take three examples:

The bible has the same pattern?! Well the Old Testament at least. I am not going to do all three examples, but I will do one of them.

Moses

His parents (1) and (2) were of the principal family of the Levites, and (3) near relatives; he is (5) also reputed to be the son of Pharaoh's daughter. Pharaoh (6) attempts to kill him at birth, but (7) he is wafted away, and (8) reared secretly. We are told (9) nothing of his childhood, but on reaching manhood he (11) kills a man, and (10) goes to Midian, where (12) he marries the ruler's daughter. Returning (10) to Egypt, he (11) gains a series of magical victories over Pharaoh, and (13) becomes a ruler. His rule lasts a long time, and (15) he prescribes laws, but later he (16) loses the favor of Jehovah, is (17) removed from his leadership, and (18) disappears mysteriously from (19) the top of a mountain. His children (20) do not succeed him. His body (21) is not buried, but (22) he has a holy sepulchre near Jerusalem.
He scores twenty points, several of them twice, or, if we include Josephus's account, even three times.

Alright so that is the Old Testament, surely the New Testament is clean of the "heroes"? Well let us take a look at Jesus. This is my paragraph hence why it is not quoted. Lord Raglan did not include him in the list of heroes.

(1) His mother was a virgin. His father was (2) god (also referred to as Lord (aka king)). He was (4) born of immaculate conception. Again his father is (5) god, or Jehova. King Herod heard of this "savior" and (6) attempted to have him killed. (7) He is spirited away. (9) We are told nothing of his childhood. (10) But when he hits manhood he returns to his future kingdom. (11) After a victory over Satan, he becomes (13) "king of the Jews". (14) For a time he reigns uneventfully, (15) and prescribes laws. However, (16) he loses favor with the Jews, and is (17) driven from his throne as king of the jews. He (18) meets with a mysterious death, (19) on top of a hill. (20) He has no children to succeed him. (21) His body is never buried, and (22) he has holy sepulchres.

So let's see, a grand total of 19 points. Looks to me that the hero still exists and is worshiped to this day.

I often wonder how many other people in religions would fit this scale. I do not know much about the Muslim faith, or Buddhism. But I would wager that they also have their own "heroes". Everyone loves a hero, who would follow an average Joe?

Now please, comments. Remember I do not expect you to change your beliefs over this thread. I just find it odd that this pattern exists. Everyone has a right to do what they want to do, believe in what they want to believe, etc.

[edit on 2/15/2008 by adigregorio]

You've encountered something important here.

Look into Horus, Mitras, Krishna, Beowulf and Harry Potter too. all the same story, with varying degrees of departure from consensus reality.



An important concept in esoteric study hinges on the understanding that all of history's great heroes have been retreads of a single story: lack of factual reality does not deprive something of power. Even if these fictional characters are only symbolic, they serve as fulcrums against which the ponderous might of the human Will can be turned to great achievements.

We need our lies, because they help us understand what the truth should be.



excellent research, and great thread.

Thank you very much for the compliments. And I agree 100% with your comment(s). That is why I stated that I do not expect anyone to change their beliefs. People need to do what makes them happiest. One of the main reasons I do not believe in "right" or "wrong". Those, like beauty, are in the eye of the beholder.

Well I was mulling over some things and decided to run the pattern over some of our heroes. Here are my results.

Lt. Commander Data (Star Trek the Next Generation)

6: Mother is a Virgin.
4: Circumstances of birth unusual.
6: At birth an attempt is made on his life (Crystalline Entity).
9: Told nothing of his childhood.
10: Upon manhood goes to his future kingdom.
11: Victory over queen, and others
15: Prescribes laws (Androids are not machinery).
16: Loses favor with subjects (They want to dismantle him for science).
18: Meets with a mysterious death.
20: Children do not succeed him.
21: Body is not buried.
(11/22)

Goku (Dragon Ball Z)

4: Circumstances of birth unusual.
6: At birth attempt is made on his life (may be mistaken here).
7: Spirited away (to Earth).
8: Raised by foster parents.
10: Upon manhood goes to future kingdom.
11: After victory over dragons, kings, and beasts.
12: Marries princess (again not sure if Chi Chi counts here).
18: Meets with a mysterious death (several times).
19: On top of a hill.
21: Body is not buried.
(10/22)

Merlin

1: Mother is a virgin.
3: Circumstances of conception unusual.
5: Reputed to be son of a god.
8: Reared by foster parents.
9: Told nothing of his childhood.
10: Upon manhood goes to his future kingdom.
11: Victory over, King, Dragon, and wild beasts.
12: Marries princess.
15: Prescribes laws.
16: Looses favor with gods, and subjects.
17: Driven from the city.
20: Children do not succeed him.
21: Body is not buried.
(13/22)

Anakin Skywalker

1: Mother is a virgin.
4: Circumstances of conception unusual.
7: Spirited away.
8: Reared by foster parents.
9: Told nothing of (most) his childhood.
10: Reaching manhood goes to his future kingdom.
11: After a victory over a wild beast.
12: Marries a princess.
13: Becomes king.
14: Reigns uneventfully.
15: Prescribes laws.
16: Looses favor with his subjects.
17: Driven from the throne.
18: Meets with a mysterious death.
21: Body is not buried.
(15/22)

Sephiroth (Final Fantasy 7)

1: Mother is a virgin.
4: Circumstances of conception unusual.
5: Reputed son of a god.
6: At birth attempt is made on life.
7: Spirited away.
8: Reared by foster parents.
9: Told nothing of his childhood.
10: Upon reaching manhood goes to future kingdom.
11: After victories over dragon, and wild beasts.
13: Becomes king.
14: Reigns uneventfully.
15: Prescribes laws.
16: Loses favor with subjects.
17: Is driven from the city/throne.
18: Meets with a mysterious death.
19: On top of a hill.
20: Children do not succeed him.
21: Body is not buried.
(18/22)

Lastly, for fun me!

5: Reputed to be son of a god (we are all "God's" children).
6: At birth an attempt is made on life. (Dad wanted an abortion)
8: Reared by foster parents.
9: Told nothing of his childhood (least I have not told you anything).
10: Upon reaching manhood returns to his kingdom (just moved back to Cali).
11: Victory over a wild beast (killed a bird once).
15: Prescribes laws (I am guardian over my brother and sister).
16: Loses favor with subjects (Had an out with mom a few years back).
17: Driven from the city.
20: Children do not succeed him (never going to have any kids).
(10/22)

Of course I may have more, but I have yet to die so can't say if I died on a hill, or if it was mysterious.

I have some more "heroes" but I will wait until a later post to list them, and of course I will keep trying to think of more.

Finally, I am really surprised at the lack of responses this thread has received. Of course, perhaps it is because people are in agreement with me and just do not post. Then again, maybe this isn't as interesting as I thought it was.

Yes the hero 'monomyth' is somewhat a parable for the evolution of one's own soul within a lifetime, projected onto an external deity just like all the pantheons of gods and devils are reflections of internal archetypes. You should look into Jung via Joseph Cmpbell's the Hero with a Thousand Faces.
en.wikipedia.org...

Originally posted by adigregorio
11: Victory over a wild beast (killed a bird once).

Btw congratulations on your heroic victory over a poor bird

[edit on 16-2-2008 by Shar_Chi]

reply to post by adigregorio


i tired ti say that to a muslim once, we are all god's children....man did it start an argument. I guess to them, we are all god's slaves.

Originally posted by THIseNdsnowoldKings
i tired ti say that to a muslim once, we are all god's children....man did it start an argument. I guess to them, we are all god's slaves.

I think a more appropriate conclusion is that: To him, we are all gods slaves.

Of course, as I stated above I do not know much about the Muslim faith.

Originally posted by Shar_Chi
...You should look into Jung via Joseph Cmpbell's the Hero with a Thousand Faces...

I will do that! I recently purchased a book called "Dictionary of Classical Mythology". Some great examples of the "Hero Pattern" in that as well.

Originally posted by Shar_Chi
Btw congratulations on your heroic victory over a poor bird

Yeah I did that during my high school years. Not the proudest time of my life.

I find the lack of comments truly astonishing! 185 views and only three people have said anything about this. Maybe if I ask a question, instead of just asking about comments.

Given this pattern, does it not seem a little suspicious that "Jesus" has 19 out of 20? You would think if "Jesus" was a real person (real as the Bible portrays him) his pattern would have less points to it.

I do wonder about the three points he missed. Numbers 3 8 and 12. And upon further reflection. When I did my scale, I got #5 because "we are all "god's children". Now wouldn't that make JC's mother also his child? Then that should give her (3) Often a near relative of his mother. Now for number 8, since little to nothing is known of his childhood. What is to say that this reason is because he was "sent away". Of course speculation doesn't earn points but still a thought. Finally number 12. Well I have heard theories that Mary was more than just a follower. Know what I mean, nudge nudge, wink wink, say no more! However I am not sure of her status in society. Even so it is quite possible he gets to have number 12 along with 3, and maybe even 8. That would be 22/22, of course being fair I will just say he is up to 20/22. Unless I hear something different about Mary, or possible foster parents.

Lastly, where are all of the defenders? I see them in thread after thread when Christianity is questioned. Here I question the existence of Jesus, and all I hear are crickets! Do they not have any answers for the "Hero Pattern"?

[edit] minor error
[edit] minor error x2 (glad I proofed the post )

[edit on 2/16/2008 by adigregorio]

[edit on 2/16/2008 by adigregorio]

good job!

Do what no man does in order to become free, no law to follow except the good law, the right law...for others like you!

Originally posted by adkchamp
good job!

Do what no man does in order to become free, no law to follow except the good law, the right law...for others like you!

I thank you. Even though I am a bit confused by the comment. Of course this is only because of my belief structure.

Good, bad, right, and wrong are all in the eyes of others. What I mean is, what is good/right for one person, is bad/wrong for another. Therefore, how does one know what is what? My answer to that question is simple, and all you have to do is add two words, for you/them or me/us. Belief in higher powers is good for them, whereas it is bad for me.

If more more people would add those two words to the end of statements, then I believe we would get along better as a species. Of course that is just my idea, and I do not expect anyone, other than myself, to adhere to it. Because it is good/right for me.

[edit] i jes caant seam to speel good!

[edit on 2/17/2008 by adigregorio]

reply to post by adigregorio


Okay, so you're not the kind of person who can confidently believe in something and not let it affect your judgement.

I'll admit it does take a special kind of crazy to acheive that sort of psychological balance*.

Preferably; One that doesn't judge based on anything but experience and wisdom.

Christianity is a pretty difficult one to acheive that kind of balance with actually, might i suggest a Religion that is less restrictive to your personal ethical judgement of the world?



*Call it, "The balance of Belief and Reality".

[edit on 17-2-2008 by Throbber]

Originally posted by Throbber
Okay, so you're not the kind of person who can confidently believe in something and not let it affect your judgement.

My beliefs (confident ones) do affect my judgment, I apologize if I gave a different assumption. But in addition to that, they are malleable and can be molded if I think they are no longer right for me. (This is not a common occurrence)

Originally posted by Throbber
I'll admit it does take a special kind of crazy to acheive that sort of psychological balance*.

I do not see how it is "crazy". Of course I hear that most "crazy" people do not realize that they are "crazy". (On a side note, by crazy I mean a physical problem which causes them to act outside of the "normal", whatever that is.)

Originally posted by Throbber
Preferably; One that doesn't judge based on anything but experience and wisdom.

I always thought that everyone based their judgments on experience and or wisdom.

Originally posted by Throbber
Christianity is a pretty difficult one to acheive that kind of balance with actually, might i suggest a Religion that is less restrictive to your personal ethical judgement of the world?

I am not a Christian, nor do I wish to join any religion. As for me judging "the world" this is not the case. I do my best to not judge a person for what "I think they are" rather to judge a specific action.

For example, Joe Shmoe is not a "bad/wrong" person for murdering Jane Doe, but the action of murder is "bad/wrong". Again, this could be semantics. But of course this is right, for me. I never assume that it is/should be right for others.

Lastly, and forgive me if I am wrong, I do not see how this is on topic. Of course I welcome any comments, but I do not want others reading this thread to be confused as to its content. (ie I am not saying do not post these things, just that I would prefer this to remain on topic)

Here are a couple more "heroes"

Harry Potter

6: At birth an attempt is made on his life
7: He is spirited away
8: He is reared by foster parents in a far away land
11: After a victory over wild beasts
14: Reigns uneventfully
15: Prescribes laws
16: Loses favor of his subjects
17: Driven from city (or his school)
18: Meets with a mysterious death
20: His children do not succeed him
21: His body is not buried
(11/22)

Brian (Monty Python's The Life of Brian)

5: Reputed to be the son of a god
9 Told nothing of his childhood
10: Upon reaching manhood goes to his future kingdom
11: Victory over a king
13: Becomes a king
14: For a time reigns uneventfully
15: Prescribes laws
16: Loses favor with his subjects
17: Is driven from the city
18: Meets with a mysterious death
19: On top of a hill
20: His children do not succeed him
21: his body is not buried
(13/22)

And still no responses, I am beginning to think that there is no defense. Of course I could be mistaken, but the lack of replies is leading me to think I am not. Why did the church(es) make their "leading men" (ie saviors, founders, etc) so close to other "heroes"? And what makes the other "heroes" false, when the current ones are not? Some of the traditional "heroes" come ages before our current ones, is it not possible that the current "heroes" are not just the previous ones reincarnated?

I hope everyone reading realizes I am not asking rhetorical questions. Here are my questions again...

Where are all of the defenders? I see them in thread after thread when Christianity is questioned. Here I question the existence of Jesus, and all I hear are crickets! Do they not have any answers for the "Hero Pattern"?

Given this pattern, does it not seem a little suspicious that "Jesus" has 19 out of 20?

Of course I could be mistaken, but the lack of replies is leading me to think I am not. Why did the church(es) make their "leading men" (ie saviors, founders, etc) so close to other "heroes"?

And what makes the other "heroes" false, when the current ones are not? Some of the traditional "heroes" come ages before our current ones, is it not possible that the current "heroes" are not just the previous ones reincarnated?

Those are the questions I have asked so far. And I am still waiting for answers. Of course I am beginning to think that the "defenders" want this thread to vanish into oblivion (talk about a conspiracy ). Just an FYI, I have plenty more research to add, I was waiting for responses/debate to add it.

Probably most of you have already seen Zeitgeist - the movie. Says basically the same in the first part of the movie... rest of it, I don't know

Anyways, Jesus was child of a carpenter right? That doesn't fit the pattern, but I would not still disregard it. A lot of heavy stuff, really. One can always debate, if this hero pattern is just a way to understand inner self, metaphorically.

reply to post by adigregorio


Interesting. There is of course one other more obvious conclusion - a conclusion reached long ago by mnay biblical scholars, as well as classical - that Jesus, like many others before him, was simply an amalgamation of many previous ancient gods in the region.

J.

Originally posted by v01i0
Probably most of you have already seen Zeitgeist - the movie. Says basically the same in the first part of the movie...

I have not seen this movie as of yet, however if it is similar to my thread, I will check it out.

Originally posted by v01i0
Anyways, Jesus was child of a carpenter right? That doesn't fit the pattern...

I was always told he was the son of "God". Of course if he is not the son of "God", then I suppose he can't be the "Messiah" and I was correct in my belief that he is not who he is depicted to be in the Bible.

Originally posted by v01i0
...if this hero pattern is just a way to understand inner self, metaphorically...

From what I have gathered the "Hero Pattern" is used to identify similarities in mythical "heroes" such as, but not limited to, Zeus, Hercales, Oedipus, King Arthur...

Of course, I could be mistaken, but I highly doubt I am. Since the book's title is "The Hero, A Study in Tradition, Myth and Drama" now if it was titled "The Hero, A Study of the inner self" that would be a different story.

Originally posted by adigregorio
I am bordering on Agnostic/Atheist (I do know the difference between the two).

my analysis:

atheists (god is impossible)- convinced that there is no god, or supernatural
agnostics (impossible to know/understand god) - not convinced either way, would rather just keep quiet than make a false claim

i consider myself a gnostic - that knowledge and understanding IS god.

reply to post by jimbo999


That seems to be a valid hypothesis. And I agree with it 100%. The only difference with JC and the other "heroes" is that [sarcasm] "This time it is real" [/sarcasm]