It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.
Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.
Thank you.
Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.
Skeptics have often pointed out that no archaeological evidence for the existence of Jesus Christ has been discovered. And they are correct, at least perhaps up until the present...
A recent incredible discovery may put to rest that criticism...Would the Romans have recorded His life or death with an inscription or statue? Certainly not. Actually, Jewish archaeological evidence of the entire period is rather sparse...
...And remember that in A.D. 70 Jerusalem was totally destroyed by Titus. What may still exist is buried under the thriving modern city. Certainly the odds are against an artifact's survival.
The scarcity of archaeological artifacts can be contrasted, however, with the wealth of historical evidence for Christ. Soon the apostles had written letters detailing Christ's life and teachings, to be followed by the writings of Paul all widely copied and circulated, within the lifetime of eyewitnesses.
The Roman historian Josephus mentioned Christ several times while relating noteworthy civic events, including the execution of one named "James, the brother of Jesus who was called the Christ/Messiah" referring evidently to Jesus' brother James, leader of the early church and author of the New Testament book bearing his name.
1: The Hero's mother is a royal virgin;
2: His father is a king, and
3: Often a near relative of his mother, but
4: The circumstances of his conception are unusual, and
5: He is also reputed to be the son of a god.
6: At birth an attempt is made, usually by his father or his maternal grandfather, to kill him, but
7: He his spirited away, and
8: Reared by foster-parents in a far country.
9: We are told nothing of his childhood, but
10: On reaching manhood he returns or goes to his future kingdom.
11: After a victory over the king and/or a giant, dragon, or wild beast,
12: He marries a princess, often the daughter of his predecessor, and
13: Becomes king.
14: For a time he reigns uneventfully, and
15: Prescribes laws, but
16: Later he loses favor with the gods and/or his subjects, and
17: Is driven from the throne and city, after which
18: He meets with a mysterious death,
19: Often at the top of a hill.
20: His children, if any, do not succeed him.
21: His body is not buried, but nevertheless
22: He has one or more holy sepulchres.
Originally posted by adigregorio
(1) His mother was a virgin. His father was (2) god (also referred to as Lord (aka king)). He was (4) born of immaculate conception. Again his father is (5) god, or Jehova. King Herod heard of this "savior" and (6) attempted to have him killed. (7) He is spirited away. (9) We are told nothing of his childhood. (10) But when he hits manhood he returns to his future kingdom. (11) After a victory over Satan, he becomes (13) "king of the Jews". (14) For a time he reigns uneventfully, (15) and prescribes laws. However, (16) he loses favor with the Jews, and is (17) driven from his throne as king of the jews. He (18) meets with a mysterious death, (19) on top of a hill. (20) He has no children to succeed him. (21) His body is never buried, and (22) he has holy sepulchres.
So let's see, a grand total of 19 points. Looks to me that the hero still exists and is worshiped to this day.
Originally posted by adigregorio
I do wonder about the three points he missed. Numbers 3 8 and 12. And upon further reflection. When I did my scale, I got #5 because "we are all "god's children". Now wouldn't that make JC's mother also his child? Then that should give her (3) Often a near relative of his mother. Now for number 8, since little to nothing is known of his childhood. What is to say that this reason is because he was "sent away". Of course speculation doesn't earn points but still a thought. Finally number 12. Well I have heard theories that Mary was more than just a follower. Know what I mean, nudge nudge, wink wink, say no more! However I am not sure of her status in society. Even so it is quite possible he gets to have number 12 along with 3, and maybe even 8. That would be 22/22, of course being fair I will just say he is up to 20/22. Unless I hear something different about Mary, or possible foster parents.
Originally posted by adigregorio
For everyone else, so far as it stands the current defense to the hero pattern in regards to Jesus is:
Satan, knowing "gods" plan, was the other heroes mentioned (not the Harry Potter/Data/fun ones I supplied).
Originally posted by adigregorio
And am I also correct in assuming that the stance has changed for a defense against the pattern from:
Satan was the aforementioned heroes.
to
The aforementioned heroes were other "fallen angels", or their offspring.
Or a combination of both?
Originally posted by THIseNdsnowoldKings
reply to post by adigregorio
i tired ti say that to a muslim once, we are all god's children....man did it start an argument. I guess to them, we are all god's slaves.
V.2:62 "Verily! Those who believe and those who are Jews and Christians, and Sabians, whoever believes in Allâh and the Last Day and does righteous good deeds shall have their reward with their Lord, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve."
Holy Qu'ran
(Surah 29:46):
"Be courteous when you argue with the People of the Book, except with those among them who do evil. Say: "We believe in that which is revealed to us and which was revealed to you. Our God and your God is one. To Him we surrender ourselves."
Originally posted by Roark
Dude, the thing you apparently fail to realise is that the Hero Pattern, whilst amusing, doesn't prove the non-existence of Jesus Christ at all.
Originally posted by Roark
Secondly, there are plenty of historical figures for whom we have no written eye-witness accounts of their person or existence. Alexander the Great is one. Genghis Khan is another.
Originally posted by Roark
Yet, THESE figures are not chosen for your bizarre vendetta...
Originally posted by Roark
Jesus gets picked on with these alternate-history books and articles because it's related to religion (and therefore somewhat sensational), and the authors ultimately just want a greater readership. None of this stuff EVER makes it into serious academic circles.
Originally posted by adigregorio
That is correct!! That is why the thread has the (Could Jesus be fake?) part affixed. Of course, we do not have the proof to show that he did exist. (By proof I mean the 1: Eyewitness account and 2: Official document)
Originally posted by adigregorio
May I have some sources that back up these claims?
Originally posted by adigregorio
Vendetta? Can you please show me where I have called a vendetta against Jesus? Methinks you are mad because I do not believe in him, just because I question his existance does not mean I have a vendetta against him.
Originally posted by adigregorio
What are you talking about here? Articles? Alternate-history books? You are starting to lose me. Or are you talking about when I refer to the bible? I guess that could be considered an 'alterate-history' book.
Originally posted by Roark
Originally posted by adigregorio
That is correct!! That is why the thread has the (Could Jesus be fake?) part affixed. Of course, we do not have the proof to show that he did exist. (By proof I mean the 1: Eyewitness account and 2: Official document)
As I've already stated, eye-witness accounts and "official documents" aren't required by the rest of the academic world to indicate a historical person's existence. I'm interested to know why you think these are necessary, unless it's just to serve your point about Jesus' non-existence.
Originally posted by Roark
Originally posted by adigregorio
May I have some sources that back up these claims?
A source for the non-existence of eyewitness accounts for Genghis and Alexander??? I'm not sure what I can give you in that regard, dude!
You could just try and find a written eye-witness account for either of them. That would instantly disprove what I've said.
Originally posted by Roark
Originally posted by adigregorio
Vendetta? Can you please show me where I have called a vendetta against Jesus? Methinks you are mad because I do not believe in him, just because I question his existance does not mean I have a vendetta against him.
I'VE called it a vendetta, because you don't seem concerned about any OTHER historical figures who don't have supporting eyewitness accounts written about them.
Originally posted by Roark
Originally posted by adigregorio
What are you talking about here? Articles? Alternate-history books? You are starting to lose me. Or are you talking about when I refer to the bible? I guess that could be considered an 'alterate-history' book.
Alternate-history just describes a genre of book (or articles or whatever) which claims to have evidence of alternative facts to that of accepted scholastic knowledge. They are generally sensationalist in terms of what they present, and this is exactly how they sell.
Holocaust denial books are one example within the genre. The book "Holy Blood Holy Grail" is another.
Originally posted by EricD
I’ve done some very preliminary checking...
Originally posted by EricD
I believe that it is a reasonable question to ask if you have a ‘vendetta’ against Jesus if there are other people from history that do not have extant contemporaneous accounts available and also fit certain criteria that would fit a hero pattern and yet you choose to ignore them and focus on Jesus.
Originally posted by EricD
Also, upon reading your recap; your trying to shoehorn Jesus into #’s 11, 13, 14 and 15 seem spurious at best and if you accept the possible legitimacy of the Gnostic gospels then # 9 is also thrown into doubt.
Matthew 2:2 - "Where is he who has been born king of the Jews? For we have seen his star in the East, and have come to worship him."
Matthew 27:11 - Now Jesus stood before the governor; and the governor asked him, "Are you the King of the Jews?" Jesus said, "You have said so."
Matthew 27:29 - and plaiting a crown of thorns they put it on his head, and put a reed in his right hand. And kneeling before him they mocked him, saying, "Hail, King of the Jews!"
Matthew 27:37 - And over his head they put the charge against him, which read, "This is Jesus the King of the Jews."
Mark 15:2 - And Pilate asked him, "Are you the King of the Jews?" And he answered him, "You have said so."
Mark 15:9 - And he answered them, "Do you want me to release for you the King of the Jews?"
Mark 15:12 - And Pilate again said to them, "Then what shall I do with the man whom you call the King of the Jews?"
Mark 15:18 - And they began to salute him, "Hail, King of the Jews!"
Mark 15:26 - And the inscription of the charge against him read, "The King of the Jews."
Luke 23:3 - And Pilate asked him, "Are you the King of the Jews?" And he answered him, "You have said so."
Luke 23:37 - and saying, "If you are the King of the Jews, save yourself!"
Luke 23:38 - There was also an inscription over him, "This is the King of the Jews."
John 18:33 - Pilate entered the praetorium again and called Jesus, and said to him, "Are you the King of the Jews?"
John 18:39 - But you have a custom that I should release one man for you at the Passover; will you have me release for you the King of the Jews?"
John 19:3 - they came up to him, saying, "Hail, King of the Jews!" and struck him with their hands.
John 19:19 - Pilate also wrote a title and put it on the cross; it read, "Jesus of Nazareth, the King of the Jews."
John 19:21 - The chief priests of the Jews then said to Pilate, "Do not write, 'The King of the Jews,' but, 'This man said, I am King of the Jews.'"
Originally posted by nomorecruelty
The only people that usually try to debunk Jesus, God and/or the Bible are the ones who have issues with being held accountable for things they do or say in life.
Originally posted by nomorecruelty
Stop being babies and start being responsible and accountable adults. All of us will have to be judged one day, by God, and if you choose to ignore or try to debunk that, in the end, you're going to wish you hadn't of been so filled with pride.
Originally posted by nomorecruelty
Any other historical figures aren't there to hold people accountable for their actions and choices. i.e. Alex the Great, DaVinci, Nostradamus, Mozart, etc.
That is why people always choose to 'pick on' Jesus, and the Bible...