The book of Job

Originally posted by Naboo the Enigma
So I have to believe in god because he is more knowledgeable than me!

Imagine that! Someone more knowledgeable that you! Is that even possible? That's not a sole reason to believe, but it's a good ground-level concept to comprehend first.

Originally posted by Naboo the Enigma
so this is hardly a satisfactory response is it?

Yep, more than reasonable. By definition, God is older thereby more experienced, more knowledgeable, etc.

Originally posted by Naboo the Enigma
The joy of Occam's razor is that it enables us to take a view of the universe as a whole and realise that inserting a deity into the way it is run simply makes everything much more complicated, thus it is much more likely that the universe looks after itself perfectly well without divine interference, thank you very much.

You're welcome very much. Sure, trust a man less than a hundred years over a God who has lived more many thousands...or millions? Could be trillions.

Originally posted by Naboo the Enigma
My point about god's actions still stand.

If you'd like the Razor answer, I'd be glad to do so, but only if you're willing to quote the 4 line assumption first. You may have anything stand for you as I have whatever I say stand for me. Despite what stands for us, or what we stand for, the truth goes unchanged.

[edit on 14-2-2008 by saint4God]

Originally posted by scientisti beg to differ. your evidence is only relative to the tools you use to measure something. if you are using a hammer to measure distance, you will not get as accurate results as if you were to use a ruler. Same concept applied to Occam's razor.

True, unless you know the exact length of the hammer! It is also possible to find a new use for a hammer beyond that of striking nails. Occam's razor is used to test theories and can thus be used on any theory you wish though it must, obviously, be supported with evidence.

Originally posted by scientist
I agree, that's why I use the word "never" instead of "a long time," it's much easier to type and saves time.

Fair enough, perhaps I've grown too picky.

Originally posted by scientist
and back to Job, a biblical-ish theory I have also come across was that it was a play put on by the angels, to dramatize the polarity of two opposite forces.

A play put on by the angels... That's very interesting. Thought required. If I come up with anything questions or comments, I'll get back to it.

Originally posted by scientist
i beg to differ. your evidence is only relative to the tools you use to measure something. if you are using a hammer to measure distance, you will not get as accurate results as if you were to use a ruler. Same concept applied to Occam's razor.

Also an interesting point. Something else I'd like to spend more time looking into.

Originally posted by Naboo the Enigma
True, unless you know the exact length of the hammer! It is also possible to find a new use for a hammer beyond that of striking nails. Occam's razor is used to test theories and can thus be used on any theory you wish though it must, obviously, be supported with evidence.

T'is the problem my friend! This tire has a big leak! I'm not going to drive on it and trash my car.

satan is the accuser, like a prosecution attorney, adversary

www.jewishencyclopedia.com...

I always found the jewish definition interesting

He is, therefore, the celestial prosecutor, who sees only iniquity; for he persists in his evil opinion of Job even after the man of Uz has passed successfully through his first trial by surrendering to the will of God, whereupon Satan demands another test through physical suffering (ib. ii. 3-5).

God created both good and evil to give man free will, satan, is the necessay evil ,I guess,
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. (Isaiah 45:7, KJV)
seems pointless, but then, I am not God.

If I may insert my two cents' worth... although I doubt my posts can be as enlightening as scientist's or saint's. You two are awesome.

Originally posted by HollowPointPeace
1. If God is all knowing, why did he need to have Job prove his faith and loyalty?

A man's true colors tend to come forward only in times of great adversity. And as creatures endowed with free will, would it not be against God's way for Him to forcibly know Job's inner thoughts? Hence the need for a believer today to open his heart and mind to Jesus of his own free will.

2. If God did not want Job to be hurt, why did he change the rules for Satan once Job proved God right?

This one I have more trouble with. Perhaps the first test was insufficient for some reason?

3. If God loves us, why would he put someone that would go to the ends of the earth for Him through so much pain.

We tend to think of pain as physical. We are not purely physical creatures, however. From the moment we are born, we tend to view the world in which we find ourselves through our physical senses and therefore are not as aware of the unseen forces that are an inherent part of nature just as much as a tree or a planet.

Hmmm, that sounds a bit like I am speaking for everyone. I'm not, that is just one of my observations on the human condition.

Physical pain is fleeting and can even be subject to our mental control over ourselves, as has been demonstrated by several of the Eastern religions. Spiritual pain may not be, and as such, the physical pain would be vastly preferable to spiritual pain.

4. How can God be persuaded by Satan?

If we are made 'in God's image', and God is not part of the percieved physical world, then it would follow that our similarity would be of a spiritual nature. I believe it refers to the free will I mentioned earlier. So if God has free will, does that not mean he has the same ability to change His mind as anyone of us?

5.(not about Job) Why does God send the ones he loves to hell?

He doesn't. Hell is not made for man, but for Satan (the enemy). But some men will follow Satan blindly into it. There again, free will.

It should be pointed out here that the references to 'hell' in the KJV are actually taken from three different Hebrew words. I have a hard time with the 'burning lake' scenario until Revelation, which is predicting things that are not yet come to pass. And the word 'hell' isn't even used there.

**I appreciate all posts and will be considerate to all who are kind. This is not intended to become a "God or Not" argument, please be respectful of others. **

Always my intentions, friend. And it's great to see a post concerning this subject without the usual complaints about 'those %&%(@ Christians'. Job is one of my favorite books, but it is also the one I struggle with the most. Maybe I'll learn something from this thread, surehope so.

TheRedneck

Originally posted by Naboo the Enigma
Application of Occam's Razor to the problem would suggest that:

a. The bible is fiction.

b. God doesn't exist.

So since the FACTS are stated so clearly and we KNOW that God does not exist, then the relevance of the entire question is debatable.

---OR---

Whether or not you believe in God/The Bible is irrelevant. Please explain why you believe this book was in the bible and what impact it is meant to have on the reader.

***THIS IS NOT A "GOD OR NOT" DEBATE***

[edit on 14-2-2008 by HollowPointPeace]

well said, redneck.

This thread has reminded me how much I appreciate the book of Job. It's right up there with proverbs and Gospel of Thomas.

reply to post by scientist


Thank you scientist.

I was wondering, I am familiar with Proverbs, of course, but I have never read the Gospel of Thomas. Is it online perchance?

I have to leave out for now, but I will get any response tomorrow night.

TheRedneck

Proverbs is an excellent book. Gospel of Thomas doesn't really say anything new. More or less, it's a tool for divisive people to cry foul for it not being in the New International Version of the Bible. If one reads a standard Bible, they'd get pretty much the same message. Most people like to go "oooh, secret deleted book of the Bible like Apocrytha!" Uhm, whatever. Read through it and decide if there's anything of greater value than the regular collection.

reply to post by saint4God


heh, it seems like you have some sort of grudge against Gospel of Thomas, because of how people have used it for political-religious reasons. That's no reason to dislike a book, or attempt to discredit it for rehashing old material.

I find the opposite. Gospel of Thomas is one of the most direct works on how to become a Christ without any "divine" middlemen. It's hard to find the same message in other books, in such a clear statement.

It's most certainly available online in lots of places for free:

www.webcom.com...

S4G - I would be interested in knowing of counterparts in the KJV for the following concepts:

His disciples said to him, "Is circumcision useful or not?" He said to them, "If it were useful, their father would produce children already circumcised from their mother. Rather, the true circumcision in spirit has become profitable in every respect."

...the Kingdom of God is inside of you, and it is outside of you. When you come to know yourselves, then you will become known, and you will realize that it is you who are the sons of the living Father. But if you will not know yourselves, you dwell in poverty, and it is you who are that poverty.

The Gospel of Thomas portrays a much different image of a Christ, and what it means to be Christlike. I find that the concepts presented by GoT are very different from other gospels, even regarding the same exact passages / tales.

Dear OP.

thank you for pointing out that the book of Job makes absolutely no logical sense at all.

Seriously you have some very valid points. To me the book of Job should have been left out of the bible because it tacitly points out that no omnicient deity would require such inane service from Job, and that it's more of the flawed thinking of ignorant men and proof that the bible is a work of man and not inspired by a real deity.

reply to post by HollowPointPeace


I could pose very similar philisophical questions about The Lord Of The Rings:

1: Did Gandalf really want to put Frodo into such imminent danger....

J.

Originally posted by scientist
heh, it seems like you have some sort of grudge against Gospel of Thomas, because of how people have used it for political-religious reasons.

Right again, 2nd time within 24 hours you've caught me.

Originally posted by scientist
That's no reason to dislike a book, or attempt to discredit it for rehashing old material.

I don't dislike it, just don't find any revealing information in contrast with the rest of the text.

Originally posted by scientist
I find the opposite. Gospel of Thomas is one of the most direct works on how to become a Christ without any "divine" middlemen.

This has me confused. The author of was not a person? Or what his writings not divine? How one becomes a Christ?

Originally posted by scientist
It's hard to find the same message in other books, in such a clear statement.

I also find the sermons clear and direct.

Originally posted by scientist
S4G - I would be interested in knowing of counterparts in the KJV for the following concepts:

His disciples said to him, "Is circumcision useful or not?" He said to them, "If it were useful, their father would produce children already circumcised from their mother. Rather, the true circumcision in spirit has become profitable in every respect."

I can give the NIV version (not as comfortable with the KJV) but I believe this reflects what Paul says in the circumcision of the heart (instead of the physical body). He makes the point a few times, but probably best here:

"A man is not a Jew if he is only one outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. No, a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a man's praise is not from men, but from God." - Romans 2:28-29

That whole chapter is very good too.

Originally posted by scientist

...the Kingdom of God is inside of you, and it is outside of you. When you come to know yourselves, then you will become known, and you will realize that it is you who are the sons of the living Father. But if you will not know yourselves, you dwell in poverty, and it is you who are that poverty.

This can be found in two parts. 1.) We are sons and daughters of the living God:

"I will be a Father to you, and you will be my sons and daughters, says the Lord Almighty." - 2 Corinthians 6:18

The issue I have with how the Gospel of Thomas text is used, is when people try to establish it as proof that Jesus Christ is not God's one and only son...which isn't what John 3:16 or the rest of the Bible says.

"I will be a Father to you, and you will be my sons and daughters, says the Lord Almighty." - 2 Corinthians 6:18

The second about knowing yourself is in Paul's address about the law:

"(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.)" - Romans 2:14

That 2:14 quote took a few re-reads for me to get down entirely.

Originally posted by scientist
The Gospel of Thomas portrays a much different image of a Christ,

What is your assessment on the differences?

Originally posted by scientist
and what it means to be Christlike. I find that the concepts presented by GoT are very different from other gospels, even regarding the same exact passages / tales.

Also interested in the differences here.

[edit on 14-2-2008 by saint4God]

ahh I just spent about 45 minutes typing out one of the longest posts ever, complet with links and references, but accidently clicked off the page.

I apologize, but this has really annoyed me, and I'm not sure I can respond in such detail until much later tonight, or tomorrow. How irritating!

I need a break from ATS now

[edit on 14-2-2008 by scientist]

reply to post by saint4God


Actually, the Gospel of Thomas is widely accepted as the most accurate sayings of the man who called himself 'Jesus'. It has never been re-written, bastardised and 're-interpretated' like the New Testament has.

This may come as a great shock to you - and many other christians on this forum - but - did you know that SCORES of religious fanatics were wandering around roman-occupied Israel claiming to be 'The Mesiah'?? Many of them with large followings...?

Did you know, for instance, that it was common knowledge amongst Jews of the time that a 'Messiah' had been prophesised to appear? - to save the Jews from their enemies?

Did you know that nearly ALL of these so-called 'Prophets' in the New Testament period - the ones wandering around the place declaring they were the 'Sons Of God' knew about these biblical stories'? - and took full advantage of the Jewish predicament under Roman rule to try to manipulate themselves into positions of power this way?

In the short term, 'Jesus' failed - and died. So did others. A jewish revolt shortly thereafter occurred - (largely unmentioned in the travesty of historic documentation that the New Testament actually turns out to be..) and most of the other 'Messiah' stories were lost in the following all out destruction that occured at the hands of the Roman Empire....

So your Jesus - I have to say - is one of many, many 'Messiahs' of his time...

Hardly an original...

J.

[edit on 14-2-2008 by jimbo999]

[edit on 14-2-2008 by jimbo999]

reply to post by jimbo999


though i shouldnt i will take the bait. just for fun.

No, Gandalf knew that by sending frodo it would surely take is life but unfortunately Frodo was the only one strong enough to make the journey. Frodo knew full well the danger and trials he faced. In the end he is uplifted and is rewarded... like Job.


COMPLETELY OFF TOPIC I HAD TO GUYS... YOU UNDERSTAND

Originally posted by HollowPointPeace
reply to post by jimbo999

 

though i shouldnt i will take the bait. just for fun.

No, Gandalf knew that by sending frodo it would surely take is life but unfortunately Frodo was the only one strong enough to make the journey. Frodo knew full well the danger and trials he faced. In the end he is uplifted and is rewarded... like Job.


COMPLETELY OFF TOPIC I HAD TO GUYS... YOU UNDERSTAND

Of COURSE we understand

My whole point being: debating the 'meaning' of the book of Job, is like debating the morality in LOTR! Interesting, but hardly important

J.

Originally posted by jimbo999
reply to post by saint4God

 

In the short term, 'Jesus' failed - and died...

So your Jesus - I have to say - is one of many, many 'Messiahs' of his time...

Hardly an original...

J.

[edit on 14-2-2008 by jimbo999]

[edit on 14-2-2008 by jimbo999]

FYI, Martyrdom is victory. Whether he is the real son of God or not. Jesus still has a following. Also, nobody pretends he was the only one claiming to be the son of God and nobody claims he was the first. (maybe some do but they are incorrect.) He is the one that stuck give him some credit. If Tom Cruise was crucified for scientology would the faith split into Cruisiology. Probably not. Whether he was for real or not Jesus obviously had an impact on a lot of people and still does.

JC ftw



[edit on 14-2-2008 by HollowPointPeace]

reply to post by jimbo999


well jimbo hardly important and hardly important to you are to entirely different things, my friend.

Plus, the bible has sold far more copies that all of tolkiens stuff combined.

Peace.

[hr]

Statements:

*Satan is NOT the devil yet. and quite possibly is just referring to an opposing viewpoint in Gods mind.
*Perhaps the story is to show reward after suffering for the faithful, but also an examination of who/what God really is
*This book may be the oldest book in the bible, but without more accurate tests we cant be sure
*there was a play following along the lines of a Greek tragedy that depicted the story of Job
*People still think we are concerned with whether or not God exists.
*Scientist and Saint are at least 7 times smarter than me. At least.