The book of Job

Originally posted by interestedalways
But why all the head games? Why did we get to choose in the first place?

This is a great question. Although no one can claim to know for sure fully, I have theories. I put this in the "blessed curse" catagory. Basically, our ability to not be slaves comes with the responsibility of following the right path. I think the reason why we were given the choice is to learn. What that learning is for necessarily, I'm not sure but it seems to be a tool we'll be using later.

Every play the "nickel or dime" game? Usually there's an uncle or grandfather in the family who will go to a five year old and hold out a coin in each hand. He'd ask "which coin do you want?" Clearly the dime is worth twice as much, but more often than not, the child goes for the bigger coin.

[edit on 13-2-2008 by saint4God]

this is a completely different topic than the book of job.

The question seemed to relate to why God would play "head games" with people like Job. Apologies if this was not the case.

reply to post by saint4God


ah good point. i wasnt thinking it through. its just coming dangerously close to the whole freedom of choice vs omnipotence / omniscience debate, which opens a completely different can of worms. Then again, I was just making a limited observations, dont let me stop anyone from posting.

reply to post by scientist


Awww scientist you killed my thread... shucks. lol jk.

I am a bad ATSer and forgot who asked but the question was about the part where God changes his mind for Satan and my answer is:

at first God says you can mess with him dont touch him, then satan could touch him... hmmmm.

Also are the others that were hurt in the process just pawns... i just dont feel comfortable dying to help someone learn a valuable lesson.

Originally posted by HollowPointPeace
Awww scientist you killed my thread... shucks. lol jk.

I've always had a lot of respect for scientist. Though we disagree often, s/he has always been courteous and respectful. Being a scientist myself, there's that kinship as well. A shame that peace kills a thread

Originally posted by HollowPointPeace
I am a bad ATSer and forgot who asked but the question was about the part where God changes his mind for Satan and my answer is:

at first God says you can mess with him dont touch him, then satan could touch him... hmmmm.

If you think that's a good one, how about when Abraham negotiates with God? Could you imagine?:

"The men turned away and went toward Sodom, but Abraham remained standing before the LORD. Then Abraham approached him and said: "Will you sweep away the righteous with the wicked? What if there are fifty righteous people in the city? Will you really sweep it away and not spare the place for the sake of the fifty righteous people in it? Far be it from you to do such a thing—to kill the righteous with the wicked, treating the righteous and the wicked alike. Far be it from you! Will not the Judge of all the earth do right?"

The LORD said, "If I find fifty righteous people in the city of Sodom, I will spare the whole place for their sake."

Then Abraham spoke up again: "Now that I have been so bold as to speak to the Lord, though I am nothing but dust and ashes, what if the number of the righteous is five less than fifty? Will you destroy the whole city because of five people?"
"If I find forty-five there," he said, "I will not destroy it."

Once again he spoke to him, "What if only forty are found there?"
He said, "For the sake of forty, I will not do it."

Then he said, "May the Lord not be angry, but let me speak. What if only thirty can be found there?"
He answered, "I will not do it if I find thirty there."

Abraham said, "Now that I have been so bold as to speak to the Lord, what if only twenty can be found there?"
He said, "For the sake of twenty, I will not destroy it."

Then he said, "May the Lord not be angry, but let me speak just once more. What if only ten can be found there?"
He answered, "For the sake of ten, I will not destroy it."

When the LORD had finished speaking with Abraham, he left, and Abraham returned home." - Genesis 18:22-35

Originally posted by HollowPointPeace
Also are the others that were hurt in the process just pawns... i just dont feel comfortable dying to help someone learn a valuable lesson.

"Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends." - John 15:13

You're speaking as if your 70 + - years on this earth is everything. What about infinity? Aren't you more concerned about forever than a small slice of years within it? God sees this big picture when working out the affairs of Job, Abraham, etc.

[edit on 13-2-2008 by saint4God]

more interesting insight from an interpretation of Job being a play:

www.intermix.org...

Was Job originally a play? It is an old idea, going back at least to Theodore of Mopsuestia, who died in 428 AD. He was sure the Book of Job was a scandalous drama on the pattern of Greek tragedy, but the Church Council of 553 at Constantinople condemned his thinking.

I believe this was rehashed in Dr. Kallen's "The Book of Job as a Greek Tragedy" (1918).

Given that the dating of the book of Job preceeds that of the play, perhaps the play is a copy of the book of Job?

reply to post by saint4God


i think this plays off the fact that the dating of the Book of Job is heavily debated, even to this day.

Originally posted by scientist
i think this plays off the fact that the dating of the Book of Job is heavily debated, even to this day.

Totally agree. I'm looking forward to the day we can accurately date stuff. Or...maybe we're not supposed to know for certain?

If "god" is real and this life is simply a test, then nothing to the individual during the test is of any meaning. Pain, suffering, trials, tribulations, joy, knowledge, power... its all meaningless and god would send his "only son" on a whim. Its meaningless, if you buy into all this.

I tend to like the simulation hypothesis as a fun argument that could explain the bible(s), and that god is a scientist asking a question: if there is a god, would people believe if they had no evidence. An advanced version of "the sims".

www.simulation-argument.com...

Originally posted by saint4God
Totally agree. I'm looking forward to the day we can accurately date stuff. Or...maybe we're not supposed to know for certain?

I'm afraid that will never happen. I agree more with the latter. Besides, the people that need dates to go along with poetry are missing the point anyways. The tales are timeless, and unless we create a time machine, or discover some akashic records, we'll never really find objective proof.

and again, the closer you get to proof, the more you undermine the entire concept of faith.

Satan is not ha'satan, as some have said, nor the "duality of God". To prove this, here are the relevant passages.

Job 1:6-12

6Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.

7And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

8And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

9Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?

10Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land.

11But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.

12And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.

Notice that Stan is differentiated from "The Sons of God" (angels).

Application of Occam's Razor to the problem would suggest that:

a. The bible is fiction.

b. God doesn't exist.

Much more straigthforward, nes pas?

Furthermore the actions of God in the treatment of Job and inspiring the Israelites in genocide ensure, for me, that if he does exist, he isn't worthy of worship.

The problem with Occum's Razor is the assumption that mankind's thinking is greater than God's thinking. How long does a person live? How long has God have lived? Based on experience alone, our insignificant 70 + - years is not even a speck in infinity. Occum's Razor can most certainly be answered (as I have done on many occasions) even by me who has lived less than 70 years, let alone God.

Originally posted by scientist
I'm afraid that will never happen.

Never is a long time.

Originally posted by scientist
I agree more with the latter. Besides, the people that need dates to go along with poetry are missing the point anyways.

Beautifully said, though it take more than pretty words for me to believe anything.

Originally posted by scientist
Beautifully said, though it take more than pretty words to
The tales are timeless, and unless we create a time machine, or discover some akashic records, we'll never really find objective proof.

There's that "never" word again. Careful with that one.

Beautifully said, though it take more than pretty words to give me just cause to believe in anything.

Originally posted by scientist
and again, the closer you get to proof, the more you undermine the entire concept of faith.

Yeah, I'm busted. You've got me here. If it gives any credit, the proofs I did receive had given me faith in things I did not receive proof upon. In other words, I got a 'peel back' of the curtain to be able to conclude what's behind the rest of the stage.

reply to post by saint4God


?!

So I have to believe in god because he is more knowledgeable than me! That is based entirely in the assumption that he exists; we are in a state whereby the existence of a god or gods is open to question so this is hardly a satisfactory response is it? Equally I could say that "God doesn't exist, so his logic is non-existent", but it wouldn't be of much use.

The joy of Occam's razor is that it enables us to take a view of the universe as a whole and realise that inserting a deity into the way it is run simply makes everything much more complicated, thus it is much more likely that the universe looks after itself perfectly well without divine interference, thank you very much.

My point about god's actions still stand.

Originally posted by Naboo the Enigma
The joy of Occam's razor is that it enables us to take a view of the universe as a whole and realise that inserting a deity into the way it is run simply makes everything much more complicated, thus it is much more likely that the universe looks after itself perfectly well without divine interference, thank you very much.

first of all, occams razor was not intended to be applied to religion or philosophy. It's one of the most abused concepts in history, right along with religion.

Never is a long time.

I agree, that's why I use the word "never" instead of "a long time," it's much easier to type and saves time.

and back to Job, a biblical-ish theory I have also come across was that it was a play put on by the angels, to dramatize the polarity of two opposite forces.

[edit on 14-2-2008 by scientist]

Originally posted by scientist...Occam's razor was not intended to be applied to religion or philosophy. It's one of the most abused concepts in history, right along with religion.

It wasn't intended for use in religion, but that is because it was formulated by a Franciscan Friar! Its intended use is irrelevant, it stands up to scrutiny, has been put to extensive use in many fields of philosophy and is an essential research tool. Applied retrospectively it is supported by almost all major scientific theorems, most notably the theory of evolution which is remarkable because of its basic simplicity and the complexity of the organisms it produces.

Invariably natural processes take the path of least resistance, thus Occam's Razor is a sensible scientific tool.

Originally posted by Naboo the Enigma
Its intended use is irrelevant

i beg to differ. your evidence is only relative to the tools you use to measure something. if you are using a hammer to measure distance, you will not get as accurate results as if you were to use a ruler. Same concept applied to Occam's razor.