The book of Job

ok, let's try this again... but now from notepad. In fact, I should really do all my posts from notepad now, until ATS get's a well needed update... but I digress (and I haven't even started!)

Originally posted by saint4God

Originally posted by scientist
heh, it seems like you have some sort of grudge against Gospel of Thomas, because of how people have used it for political-religious reasons.

Right again, 2nd time within 24 hours you've caught me.

ha, I should probably stop while I'm ahead, but alas I will risk my correctness ratio for the sake of healthy discussion.

Originally posted by saint4God
I don't dislike it, just don't find any revealing information in contrast with the rest of the text.

I find that hard to believe, because there is revealing information in all of the scriptures, even Numbers, although that's probably at the very bottom of the list
The reason I find to much insight within the Gospel of Thomas is because I read it within a Gnostic context. Although I am now derailing the thread a bit, take this as a "do what I say, not as I do" moment. OP, please forgive. In fact, I decided to make a separate topic for the Gospel of Thomas here:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Now we can continue with Job in this thread I'm beat after writing that other thread, so check it out and I'll add more to this one tomorrow.

Great thread guys. I have just found it and read the lot. Looking forward to more. I thought I had a fair understanding of the Bible I have learned alot about Job here. Thank you.

Scientist,
I had never heard the concept...
“Yahweh’s intention to become man, which resulted from his collision with Job, is fulfilled in Christ’s life and suffering”. God is moving, in this view, out of his unconsciousness and primary narcissism and becomes a “God in time.” The “answer,” then, is when God as Christ crucified becomes fully human and can now empathically see and suffer humanity’s pain.

My understanding was that Jesus was to be the final sacrifice so ritual sacrifces were no longer required as oppossed to being able to empathise with humans.
Symbolically Jesus died at passover (easter) signifying the blood of the lamb so we can all be saved (Hence the lamb of god) Many more symbolic references to Passover and O.T. stuff but that will get us way more off topic than I already am

Sorry for the distraction. Please continue. I will now keep quite until I have something remotley ineresting to add

Originally posted by VIKINGANT
My understanding was that Jesus was to be the final sacrifice so ritual sacrifces were no longer required

the crucifixion is a symbol for many things, so that's correct too - however in the context of a Jungian approach, that experience was a "narcissistic" (if you will) one. Done by god, to have an actual experience living the human life, and experiencing all of the different sensations - from complete bliss to torture.

This still relates to the book of job - since that is also considered one of the narcissistic tales of the bible (at least i consider it!)

another similarity between the crucifixion and job, is that they were both saved by their mortality. death was the only cure, and ultimately, the only option anyways.

[edit on 15-2-2008 by scientist]

Originally posted by jimbo999
This may come as a great shock to you - and many other christians on this forum - but - did you know that SCORES of religious fanatics were wandering around roman-occupied Israel claiming to be 'The Mesiah'?? Many of them with large followings...?

Did you know, for instance, that it was common knowledge amongst Jews of the time that a 'Messiah' had been prophesised to appear?

Ya, ever since it was prophesized, there had been those claiming to be "the one". Even afterwards, a guy named Simon the Sorcerer was called such. People knew it was coming, but wasn't sure when, where or who.

Originally posted by jimbo999
- to save the Jews from their enemies?

There were more or less three sets of believers. The Zealots thought this meant waging war and physically overthrowing earthly kings. Needless to say, quite the disappointment by them when Jesus comes along saying "love your enemies". They were like "bah, this isn't the dude we're looking for" and moved on. I wouldn't be surprised if they were a part of the crowd shouting, "We want barnabas!"

Originally posted by jimbo999
Did you know that nearly ALL of these so-called 'Prophets' in the New Testament period - the ones wandering around the place declaring they were the 'Sons Of God' knew about these biblical stories'?

Uhm...if they were prophets, they were self-declared, not chosen the way previous ones were. Today we have people wandering around self-proclaiming being prophets. So hard to tell isn't it? The greatest clue is in the message. Jesus withstood skepticism.

Originally posted by jimbo999
- and took full advantage of the Jewish predicament under Roman rule to try to manipulate themselves into positions of power this way?

They didn't get very far apparently. What Jewish self-declared prophet made themselves powerful during Roman rule?

Originally posted by jimbo999
In the short term, 'Jesus' failed - and died.

Jesus died and succeeded. Without resurrection, I could see part of your point.

Originally posted by jimbo999
So did others.

No, they just died..

Originally posted by jimbo999
So your Jesus - I have to say - is one of many, many 'Messiahs' of his time...

Hardly an original...

J.

Jesus wasn't the only one who was called The Messiah, but he was the only one that was the Messiah (tm).

Originally posted by HollowPointPeace
FYI, Martyrdom is victory. Whether he is the real son of God or not.

I can't agree that mere martyrdom is victory. Jesus was not the only martyr, not even in the Bible. I don't know any Stephanists myself, but would be interesting to have a conversation with one.

Originally posted by scientist
ha, I should probably stop while I'm ahead, but alas I will risk my correctness ratio for the sake of healthy discussion.

I think you're particularly observant when it comes to people and careful in speech, saying what's seen with courtesy instead of assumed. One might even say you've got it down to a...science.

Originally posted by scientist
I find that hard to believe, because there is revealing information in all of the scriptures, even Numbers, although that's probably at the very bottom of the list

I think that's cool. I'm having a hard time chugging through Numbers and getting the significance of who was in what clan and why. Maybe you could help point out the modern day applications to me as they come up.

Originally posted by scientist
The reason I find to much insight within the Gospel of Thomas is because I read it within a Gnostic context. Although I am now derailing the thread a bit, take this as a "do what I say, not as I do" moment. OP, please forgive. In fact, I decided to make a separate topic for the Gospel of Thomas here:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Now we can continue with Job in this thread

I'm beat after writing that other thread, so check it out and I'll add more to this one tomorrow.

Well done. With the title, I think I'll do more movement with the eyes than the mouth...but then again, it's be we're talking about so...

[edit on 15-2-2008 by saint4God]

Originally posted by scientist
This still relates to the book of job - since that is also considered one of the narcissistic tales of the bible (at least i consider it!)

another similarity between the crucifixion and job, is that they were both saved by their mortality. death was the only cure, and ultimately, the only option anyways.

Very glamourous to be beaten and tortured on a cross, no? Anywho, the biggest issue I have with this the whole "God is selfish" motivation thinking. He comes here and says things like "Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends" and endures otherwise 'needless' suffering just to get his kicks. I've never heard of the S&M Bible, but am willing to conclude at this point that it is a very different version of history and distanced from reality.

[edit on 15-2-2008 by saint4God]

Originally posted by saint4God

Originally posted by HollowPointPeace
FYI, Martyrdom is victory. Whether he is the real son of God or not.

I can't agree that mere martyrdom is victory.

This was a point to show that Jesus did not fail. He completed the objective. It is not meant to be taken by itself.

In religion martyrs play a HUGE role. When people were killed for their beliefs it made others wonder why it was worth it. Being a martyr does not make you personally victorious but it strengthens the beliefs in others and makes them put their beliefs above their own lives.

Originally posted by HollowPointPeace
This was a point to show that Jesus did not fail. He completed the objective. It is not meant to be taken by itself.

In religion martyrs play a HUGE role. When people were killed for their beliefs it made others wonder why it was worth it. Being a martyr does not make you personally victorious but it strengthens the beliefs in others and makes them put their beliefs above their own lives.

Gotcha, apologies for missing the scope of the statement.

reply to post by saint4God


Cool beans, I am not the best with this whole online communication thing as this is the first Forum website I have ever registered with. I am pretty excited this has turned out to be a pretty good thread. (for me anyway)

Originally posted by HollowPointPeace
Cool beans, I am not the best with this whole online communication thing as this is the first Forum website I have ever registered with. I am pretty excited this has turned out to be a pretty good thread. (for me anyway)

Nicely done on the thread too, I'm enjoying it. Usually it turns into a "God doesn't exist *grumble grumble*" versus "Oh yes He does!" kind of thing. Typically the topic is ignored and a meaningless exchange ensues, but between the title and the people present, it's refreshing to have a nice civil discussion on the matter.

On my first read-through I was like "that's not cool, his wife died and was replaced by another? What's up with that?" but the great thing about studying it is picking up on all the details, like when his first wife had said "Are you still holding on to your integrity? Curse God and die!" (she uses an ancient equivalent of "Damn it, go to Hell")

Job makes a very good point that is still important today. When people score a touchdown or win the lottery, they shout "praised God!" which certainly is nice to give credit where due but as soon as something goes wrong...suddenly they say there is no God. In contrast, Job replies to his wife:

"He replied, "You are talking like a foolish woman. Shall we accept good from God, and not trouble?" - Job 2:10

Aha! No cherry picking our relationship with God. Either we love Him in good times and bad, sickness and health, for richer or poorer or death do us part. Sound familiar?


[edit on 15-2-2008 by saint4God]

Originally posted by saint4God
On my first read-through I was like "that's not cool, his wife died and was replaced by another? What's up with that?" but the great thing about studying it is picking up on all the details, like when his first wife had said "Are you still holding on to your integrity? Curse God and die!" (she uses an ancient equivalent of "Damn it, go to Hell")

Job makes a very good point that is still important today. When people score a touchdown or win the lottery, they shout "praised God!" which certainly is nice to give credit where due but as soon as something goes wrong...suddenly they say there is no God. In contrast, Job replies to his wife:

"He replied, "You are talking like a foolish woman. Shall we accept good from God, and not trouble?" - Job 2:10

Aha! No cherry picking our relationship with God. Either we love Him in good times and bad, sickness and health, for richer or poorer or death do us part. Sound familiar?

Very interesting that that was my experience as well... when I first read Job the fact that stunned me was the loss of his children.

I have never heard the translation you give, but I have to say it does make sense, taken with the messages embedded throughout the entire Bible. I picked up on the concept that Job's wife was not as faithful as he, just have never managed to put her words into such a modern version. Thank you for that insight!

And I close this post with another agreement. It's very easy to shout praise when things go well, but I have found that it does more good to shout praise when things go wrong.

TheRedneck
(soon to be checking out the GoT and the new thread)

Originally posted by HollowPointPeace
In religion martyrs play a HUGE role. When people were killed for their beliefs it made others wonder why it was worth it. Being a martyr does not make you personally victorious but it strengthens the beliefs in others and makes them put their beliefs above their own lives.

Would that (acknowledged) role be in religion or in politics? In many cases I find it difficult to separate the two.

Not trying to start an argument here, just pointing out another of those nasty little observations I tend to make on the human condition.

TheRedneck

Concerning Job and his test, my understanding of it.

First I would like to point out that Job mentions that "what I feared most has come upon me". If we look at scripture, God has told us to "fear not" but to fear Him (give the highest respect).

There was a hedge about Job due to his fear of the Lord but he didn't fear God the most. Thus allowing Satan the opportunity to attack.

Job also said "the Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away". God had to instruct Job in his improper placement of "who" took things away from him. In the end Job acknowledged that it was Satan that took away and not God where upon Job placed his hand over his mouth. Job repents of his misguided assertion that it "was" God that had took from him.

The test was not for God's sake but for Job's. God knew that Job would pass the test but Job didn't. For Job's unwavering faith in God he is rewarded with double of everything plus 140 years added to his life. Also notice the last verse says that Job died being old and full of days. Being full of days in the same way Abraham was. Not a feeble old man but one in which his sight had not dimmed nor his mind dulled or in any physical way.

Though to start with Job was a righteous man and a servant of God. He only lacked in one area, his fear of possible disaster.

HollowPointPeace -

Good questions. I would suggest to take a step back and study the various world religions and their denominations. The esoteric type circles (the guys that try to make it practical and not dogmatic is a good place to start) Thomas Merton Nouwen, for Judaism koshertorah.com has a wealth of material that is great...then look into Buddhist philosophy, etc.

Get a really good view of the practical aspect of all of this and then revisit job.
Things arent how they seem nor presented. There are many layers and too often we get stuck in one layer of reality. That would be what Christians call the parable level.
Or the baby stuck on the milk.

Peace

dAlen

reply to post by pstrron


I like your take in this. But there is one little detail...

Job also said "the Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away". God had to instruct Job in his improper placement of "who" took things away from him.

Link to full page

So Job's statement wasn't a sin against God. Perhaps this could be explained that Job didn't sin because he wasn't aware that it was not God who took away from him. Still, the concept of allowing Job to realize what his greatest fear was as opposed to what it should be seems to have some merit IMHO.

I still maintain that it was a test to see exactly where Job's loyalties lay. For mankind to have free will, God must respect our individual thoughts. So for God to know us, he must test us. At least, that was the case before Jesus, when the events in the book took place.

TheRedneck

edited to provide link


[edit on 16-2-2008 by TheRedneck]

Notice it was satan doing the dirty deed. Interesting. As I understand it satan took title of the earth and mankind when Adam and Eve sinned. Jesus lived and died without sin thereby taking back ownership.

satan is known as the prince of the power of the air among other names. His arguement was that man was naturally evil and would sin. Follow this idea with other information that seems to be like the Job story without being able to know both sides of the story

It is said in the Bible that God is invisible and lives in light so bright that no man can see HIM and live. Yet one time there was a black cloud on the mountain where God was. Moses walked into the black cloud and there he was told by God to tell his people that he had spoken to God from heaven.

How can God be so bright and yet hide in darkness?

Another time Moses was on the mountain and God said Moses could not look at God's face but HE would put Moses between two rocks and walk by as God put HIS hand up covering Moses's eyes. After God walked by HE would remove HIS hand and Moses could see God"s back side. WHAT?

It was also on that mountain where Moses was given the Ten Commandments. For sure the commandments are God's laws and these laws are what satan said man could not keep.

Is it possible that God allowed satan to act as God and deliver the laws tp Moses without Moses knowing it was satan just like Job. So it would be satan showing his ass to Moses which seems more in character for him than God.

Also if you read about Cain and Able it says Eve had Cain and said I have gotten a (man) from the LORD. Then it says (and she again gave birth to Able) This was in the very next sentence showing that she didn't sleep with Adam or know him to have this second child. They were twins! One evil abd one good. How did that happen? Eve had sex with both Adam and satan and had a child from each. The tree of knowledge of good and evil was satan and the tree of Life was Jesus before HE came to earth through Mary. No real food would be a sin to eat or give you knowledge and they did cover their private parts not their mouths. In fact if you read the first chapter in Genesis it says all food is for man to eat and nothing was mentioned that was off limits. It also says let US make man in OUR image in Genesis 1. The next chapter talks about only God doing the creating and placing Adam and Eve in a special garden, Eden. Could chapter one be the creating of all mankind with help from the Angels and chapter two be the creation of Adam and Eve from GOD alone? After all Cain went out and found a wife I guess from the first creation.

One final part of this puzzle..

When Noah landed his boat on dry land it says in the Bible that it landed next to the Isles of the Gentiles. If everyone was drowned but those in the boat what was the purpose of calling that land the Isles of the Gentiles?

reply to post by TheRedneck


Thank you for the kind reply and yes it is true that Job sinned not in his statement but just had an improper understanding. I think we all do that from time to time.

So Job's statement wasn't a sin against God. Perhaps this could be explained that Job didn't sin because he wasn't aware that it was not God who took away from him.

I also believe it fully tested Job's loyalty. Anyone can say anything but when the test comes, only the truth will remains. Job was true to his word "though the Lord kill me, I will not curse Him". He was not tested to this level as it was not necessary to do so. He proved his loyalty and learned that it was Satan that took away. Got a test, a lesson and a super blessing, now if we could just remember that God tests us for our own good and also blesses us for passing the test and learning from it.

reply to post by TheRedneck


I would say that you are absolutely right! It doesnt matter what one is dying for, people generally put life above all else and to see someone almost willingly give it away it makes them re-examine what they believe. ie. MLK was killed. now i am not trying to start a conspiracy theory but what if it was a higher-up in civil rights who wanted to create a martyr? so i totally see your point redneck. i dont think you came across negatively at all.

Originally posted by jondular
Notice it was satan doing the dirty deed. Interesting. As I understand it satan took title of the earth and mankind when Adam and Eve sinned. Jesus lived and died without sin thereby taking back ownership.

As I understand it, Jesus did not actually take back ownership of the eath, but did provide a means for us to escape the consequences of Satan's ownership.

It is said in the Bible that God is invisible and lives in light so bright that no man can see HIM and live. Yet one time there was a black cloud on the mountain where God was. Moses walked into the black cloud and there he was told by God to tell his people that he had spoken to God from heaven.

How can God be so bright and yet hide in darkness?

In the Hebrew language, the concept of light was not just physical brightness but referred to intellectual brightness as well. Light was synonymous with knowledge, so God's brilliance could be the brilliance of having unlimited knowledge. After all, He did create everything.

Another time Moses was on the mountain and God said Moses could not look at God's face but HE would put Moses between two rocks and walk by as God put HIS hand up covering Moses's eyes. After God walked by HE would remove HIS hand and Moses could see God"s back side. WHAT?

Isn't it ironic that even today, when a minister mentions 'talking to God', people are concerned about what God 'looks like'. Myself, I am more interested in what He said.

It was also on that mountain where Moses was given the Ten Commandments. For sure the commandments are God's laws and these laws are what satan said man could not keep.

And Satan may have been right about that. After all, he fell, so isn't it probable that he would want us to fall as well? Misery does indeed love company. Thankfully, we have Jesus as an advocate for us.

Is it possible that God allowed satan to act as God and deliver the laws tp Moses without Moses knowing it was satan just like Job. So it would be satan showing his ass to Moses which seems more in character for him than God.

I doubt it, although I can see the similarities to Job. No man may look upon God and live, but I doubt that applied to Satan as well. So if it were Satan, why would there have been a need to cover Moses' eyes?

Also if you read about Cain and Able it says Eve had Cain and said I have gotten a (man) from the LORD. Then it says (and she again gave birth to Able) This was in the very next sentence showing that she didn't sleep with Adam or know him to have this second child. They were twins! One evil abd one good. How did that happen? Eve had sex with both Adam and satan and had a child from each. The tree of knowledge of good and evil was satan and the tree of Life was Jesus before HE came to earth through Mary. No real food would be a sin to eat or give you knowledge and they did cover their private parts not their mouths. In fact if you read the first chapter in Genesis it says all food is for man to eat and nothing was mentioned that was off limits. It also says let US make man in OUR image in Genesis 1. The next chapter talks about only God doing the creating and placing Adam and Eve in a special garden, Eden. Could chapter one be the creating of all mankind with help from the Angels and chapter two be the creation of Adam and Eve from GOD alone? After all Cain went out and found a wife I guess from the first creation.

Ummm, think you're making a bit of a leap here. The time from one sentence to the next could have been seconds or years; we just don't know. The trees, IMHO, were real trees, although they also served as symbols of good and evil. Man had the right to eat of any tree, although his command was to not eat of that one. By doing so, he exercised his free will, but the consequences were a separation from God and the bringing of pain and death into the world of Mankind.

TheRedneck