The book of Job

1. If God is all knowing, why did he need to have Job prove his faith and loyalty?

2. If God did not want Job to be hurt, why did he change the rules for Satan once Job proved God right?

3. If God loves us, why would he put someone that would go to the ends of the earth for Him through so much pain.

4. How can God be persuaded by Satan?

5.(not about Job) Why does God send the ones he loves to hell?
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I will answer with my secular beliefs on why the bible would say these things. I would really like some religious views as well. Diversity=Awesome.

1. If God just knew it and did nothing it would not be a story in the bible.

2. There has to be a progression of bad events to show different levels of pain and suffering. One must have faith through all trials.

3. This story is likely for folks highly active in church, they really do follow the bible. If terrible things are happening to you, its a test of your faith and you will be rewarded in the long run.

4. So it looks like God was only guilty by association.

5. So there is some penalty for wrong doing. Whether it is for the people who need to believe bad people go to a bad place or maybe fear is the only deterrant of deplorable behavior.

**I appreciate all posts and will be considerate to all who are kind. This is not intended to become a "God or Not" argument, please be respectful of others. **



[edit on 12-2-2008 by HollowPointPeace]

ah, the book of job. a most fascinating topic, even for those who do not subscribe to a particular faith. I take cues from the work of Carl Jung on this matter

www.cgjungpage.org...

Originally posted by HollowPointPeace
1. If God is all knowing, why did he need to have Job prove his faith and loyalty?

"It is as if he existed only by reason of the fact that he has an object which assures him that he is really there. " - Jung

2. If God did not want Job to be hurt, why did he change the rules for Satan once Job proved God right?

Satan challenges God to test Job’s faith by inflicting maximum suffering on this innocent civilian. Satan bets God that Job will then “curse thee to thy face.” God takes the wager, at the obvious and total expense of Job.

But in Jung’s view God hasn’t just taken a wager, he’s taken the bait. Jung says that God has been suckered (“bamboozled”)

3. If God loves us, why would he put someone that would go to the ends of the earth for Him through so much pain.

“Yahweh’s intention to become man, which resulted from his collision with Job, is fulfilled in Christ’s life and suffering”. God is moving, in this view, out of his unconsciousness and primary narcissism and becomes a “God in time.” The “answer,” then, is when God as Christ crucified becomes fully human and can now empathically see and suffer humanity’s pain.

4. How can God be persuaded by Satan?

technically, the Book of Job existed before satan aka lucifer aka the devil existed. The two "powers" messing with Job are not the devil and god, but rather the dual personalities of God. He good/bad sides if you will.

5.(not about Job) Why does God send the ones he loves to hell?

From what I understand, god doesnt send anyone to hell. people send themselves there through free choice.

reply to post by scientist


Satan is derived from a hebrew word that means enemy, correct?
The King James Version uses the word Satan. But i guess it could really just mean... opposition.

My question about hell you see is a little more complex. I was taught that God did not want any of us to go to hell. Though, if this is true then God adopts the "I dont make the rules I just obide by them" policy.

*thinking aloud... with my fingers...*
If hell really is a lake of fire and physical torment, a great person who followed a different faith will go there and burn. Is that justice?
Do I as a mortal mind even understand what justice is?
If hell is simply the absence of God maybe that means you die and are just gone. ie. no consciousness. hmmm. curious indeed.
*done*

Thank you for the post scientist! I like the ones that get the gears turning!

Originally posted by HollowPointPeace
1. If God is all knowing, why did he need to have Job prove his faith and loyalty?

I don't think He needs anything. If God needs something, is He God? Perhaps we needed a role model. That would fit the rest of the Bible where God does many things for us.

Originally posted by HollowPointPeace
2. If God did not want Job to be hurt, why did he change the rules for Satan once Job proved God right?

3. If God loves us, why would he put someone that would go to the ends of the earth for Him through so much pain.

God doesn't always do what He wants. He does what's beneficial. Do you think God wanted to see His one and only son die on the cross?

Originally posted by HollowPointPeace
4. How can God be persuaded by Satan?

God has been known to change His mind. For example...

"I establish my covenant with you: Never again will all life be cut off by the waters of a flood; never again will there be a flood to destroy the earth." - Genesis 9:11

"Let me flee to it—it is very small, isn't it? Then my life will be spared."

He (God) said to him, "Very well, I will grant this request too; I will not overthrow the town you speak of." - Genesis 19:21

Originally posted by HollowPointPeace
5.(not about Job) Why does God send the ones he loves to hell?

Who does God love?

"But the man who loves God is known by God." - 1 Corinthians 8:3

"But if anyone obeys his word, God's love is truly made complete in him." - 1 John 2:5

"This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only Son into the world that we might live through him." - 1 John 4:9

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." - John 3:16

Hope this helps.

[edit on 12-2-2008 by saint4God]

Originally posted by HollowPointPeace
Satan is derived from a hebrew word that means enemy, correct?
The King James Version uses the word Satan. But i guess it could really just mean... opposition.

exactly. from wikipedia:

While many, from a Christian perspective, believe Satan to be the Devil, in the Book of Job he is presented as a worker for YHWH known as the "the satan" (ha-satan, 'the adversary'), not Satan as a personal name. He is the ultimate prosecutor for God.

literally meant the adversary. Just as your alter-ego (or in Jungian terms, the "shadow") is your adversary. In fact, "adversary" is only mentioned in the prologue to the Book of Job, and is never mentioned within the story itself.

p.s. notice my courtesy of not using the bible as a source of info.

[edit on 12-2-2008 by scientist]

reply to post by saint4God


I was hoping you would post. I have read your posts on other threads and thought you seemed very knowledgable about stuff like this.

*My questions are all serious and not sarcastic. I just put this in because sometimes my naievity comes through in my questions. I promise thats all it is. I am just a dude lookin for answers.*

Are you saying that perhaps God only loves or even knows the people who acknowledge him/love him?
If that is what you are saying or theorizing, I have a question. I was very deep in the faith you could say, as a senior in high school I had planned to enroll in Faith World Master's Comission or Bible Bootcamp as we jokingly called it. I wanted to be a youth pastor. Now what I am asking is: Did God forget about me? Is he hurt that I left the faith? Does he still love me though I question his existence.
I digress. Sorry folks. Anyone can feel free to answer these questions with your personal opinions or think aloud as i do.

I really want this to turn into an open comfortable discussion.

In the Book of Job we find the dilemma (well addressed in this thread already), which is also present in other parts of Old Testament.

I've always found it difficult to comprehend why God would inflict pain and destruction on a group of people who simply used a wrong ritual to worship Him (forget the exact verse). I mean, they could have misinterpreted some instructions. But no, that's enough for God to have them really screwed.

Similarly... Don't you detect certain vanity in what God is saying with regards to his own powers (admittedly very, very considerable ?

If I remember correctly the Book of Job is actually the oldest book in the bible, isn't it? It has a lot of "Archaic" elements in it, such as the personal relationship between YHWH and his servant, Satan. YHWH resembles one of the "Pagan" deities of the time in having a clearly presented personality and desire in the book, rather than the rather vague and unknowable approach found in later books.

To answer the initial questions, the Book of Job is not an examination of God, but rather Satan's role in the world.

Originally posted by TheWalkingFox
If I remember correctly the Book of Job is actually the oldest book in the bible, isn't it?

i thought that as well, but could not find a source, so i left that out.

bibleresources.bible.com...

Many scholars agree that Job is the oldest book in the Bible, written by an unknown Israelite about 1500 B.C. Others hold that the Pentateuch (the first five books of the Bible) are the oldest books in the Bible, written between 1446 and 1406 B.C.

reply to post by HollowPointPeace



Dude, rockin out on the avatar! Hope I don't have an epileptic seizure!

Kidding, movement on an avatar is something I know little about so I find it impressive!

OK, on topic................

I like the part in JOB that says God will give back what the Locusts have eaten, I can say that although I am not a bible person that verse really brought me peace in some rough times and I find it also to be a true thing.

I have always tripped on the part when Satan says he is going "to and fro" for some reason that seems celestial to me. Like Saturn the planet or something of that nature.

Edit to correct spelling.

[edit on 12-2-2008 by interestedalways]

Originally posted by scientist


p.s. notice my courtesy of not using the bible as a source of info.

I understand. Though one must consider all options. I am not looking for only secular beliefs. All are welcome here.
I look at it this way. Though I may not believe in the bible. It sure seems that Saint does. If Saint truly believes in it, the literature can open his mind to possibilities that can then be shared with us. Take what you can that will positively expand your mind leave the rest behind... I hate that that rhymed... nevermind...ahhhhh. Peace and love dudes.

It is kind of cool that it seems like Saint and Scientist are heavy hitters in opposite corners.



[edit on 12-2-2008 by HollowPointPeace]

Originally posted by saint4God

God doesn't always do what He wants. He does what's beneficial. Do you think God wanted to see His one and only son die on the cross?

actually, yes. I do believe that (in the allegorical sense at least). Jesus was just the physical manifestation of God. He wanted to live out a mortal life. No mortal life can exist without an end... without suffering and death.

reply to post by interestedalways


I use Blibs.com , its super easy and makes it look like you are good at stuff

reply to post by scientist


I agree with you as well. Maybe not the gruesome way the death was carried out but in Christianity Jesus was born to die.

Originally posted by TheWalkingFox
To answer the initial questions, the Book of Job is not an examination of God, but rather Satan's role in the world.

Very interesting, though, does this mean that Job is not meant to reveal the nature of God and the way God reacts to this "opposition". It is more to show that "opposition" exists?

Originally posted by saint4God
God doesn't always do what He wants. He does what's beneficial.

That almost seems to imply that God is subject to desires, which he then must overcome using moral reasoning. Somehow, I find this concept suspect.

Originally posted by buddhasystem

Originally posted by saint4God
God doesn't always do what He wants. He does what's beneficial.

That almost seems to imply that God is subject to desires, which he then must overcome using moral reasoning. Somehow, I find this concept suspect.

Unless, one is to say "God always does what he wants."

Opposing, "No, he doesnt"(always do what he wants)
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Or, God would really like to help but he know that we will survive and learn.

How could we choose to experience duality if there was no dualtiy?

There has to be an up to be a down. Pretty simple.

But why all the head games? Why did we get to choose in the first place?

Originally posted by HollowPointPeace
1. If God is all knowing, why did he need to have Job prove his faith and loyalty?

The proof was for the benefit of both Job and those that were in his life (his 3 friends).
GOD proved Job for JOB.

2. If God did not want Job to be hurt, why did he change the rules for Satan once Job proved God right?

What, exactly, do you mean? As in: when? what chapter or verse or what?

3. If God loves us, why would he put someone that would go to the ends of the earth for Him through so much pain.

The end justifies the means.

Suffering is NOT the worse thing that can happen - the inability to overcome suffering is terminal.

Mankind's idea of 'suffering' is related to things that are transient and not truly important - basically our own perceived need of physical comfort.

Our soul remains the same whether our body is fat or lean, hot or cold, clean or dirty...etc. That is, ONCE we learn to transcend such things. That is what Job learned.

4. How can God be persuaded by Satan?

GOD can do whatever GOD wants. And ha'satan works for GOD and probably is 'employee of the month' 11 times out of 12.

5.(not about Job) Why does God send the ones he loves to hell?

First, please define what YOU mean by 'hell.' And also please tell me why you think GOD does such a thing. Just so I can explain according to your point of view rather than mine.

♥

Originally posted by interestedalways
But why all the head games?

I prefer to think of them as 'puzzles.'

Why did we get to choose in the first place?

Because FREEDOM is a fundamental truth that we have forgotten....perhaps so that in the re-discovery it will never again be lost or taken for granted.

Originally posted by HollowPointPeace
I was hoping you would post. I have read your posts on other threads and thought you seemed very knowledgable about stuff like this.

Thanks for the compliment! ^_^ One thing ATS can really use more of - compliments.

Originally posted by HollowPointPeace
*My questions are all serious and not sarcastic. I just put this in because sometimes my naievity comes through in my questions. I promise thats all it is. I am just a dude lookin for answers.*

It's cool, they seemed like serious questions to me. The only way to get answers is to ask questions.

Originally posted by HollowPointPeace
Are you saying that perhaps God only loves or even knows the people who acknowledge him/love him?

It seems that way. On the other hand, I also believe God doesn't intentionally waste resources. If He gave someone a mind, heart, soul, etc., I doubt he did so merely to toss them into the scrap pile. When He made Adam and Eve, there was no death. Humanity's course of actions made it such.

Originally posted by HollowPointPeace
If that is what you are saying or theorizing, I have a question. I was very deep in the faith you could say, as a senior in high school I had planned to enroll in Faith World Master's Comission or Bible Bootcamp as we jokingly called it. I wanted to be a youth pastor. Now what I am asking is: Did God forget about me?

Not at all. It's that He's got other business for you first. Please send U2U for details since this might be off-topic.

Originally posted by HollowPointPeace
Is he hurt that I left the faith?

Leaving the faith is a lot different than not becoming a youth pastor, but we can talk more about it if you'd like to send a message. I think leaving any kind of relationship will hurt the one you're leaving, but rarely are relationships beyond repair.

Originally posted by HollowPointPeace
Does he still love me though I question his existence.

Many believers question His existence. Some more often than others, but the most likely time is when the bad stuff happens. It's easy to shout "praise the Lord!" when score a touchdown. Not so much when your house burns down.

Originally posted by HollowPointPeace
I digress. Sorry folks. Anyone can feel free to answer these questions with your personal opinions or think aloud as i do.

I really want this to turn into an open comfortable discussion.

I wouldn't mind being that its your thread, but the mods and people who visit because of the title might want a focus on the topic.

Regarding Job, I think the reason why so many people really enjoy that book is because of a few reasons. 1.) No matter how bad our lives become, Job had it worse. 2.) They can understand how Job must've felt going through all that...perhaps because the reader is going through some very difficult times themselves. 3.) It's a strong message of hope, weathering the storms of life, and making it through.

[edit on 13-2-2008 by saint4God]

Originally posted by HollowPointPeace
I agree with you as well. Maybe not the gruesome way the death was carried out but in Christianity Jesus was born to die.

Christ was born on earth to die. The method was not a surprise however, and He did ask God to remove the pain to come:

"Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, "My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will." - Matthew 26:39

It seems the answer to this request was "no". Not pointlessly so. In order for his death to haven meaning, he would have to bear the full pain of humanity. Ultimately Christ accepted his Father's decision.

Both Christ and Job were faithful to the end with the end result being the pain being worth it. It's hard to wrap our head around because we view all pain as unnecessary, but perhaps for a pregnant mother it makes more sense. She knows giving birth is painful, so why is she always smiling? Is she masochistic? Not at all. She's not looking at the pain, she's seeing her own baby whom she loves in her arms.