Healthy eating only for the rich?

reply to post by scientist


We're speaking of the lower class here, remember that the questions involved are:

Access; Urban areas have little to no farmers markets or similar, and supermarkets or a little family owned Carniceria are the only options available

Time; Most lower class parents simply do not have the time to buy everything separate and cook a full blown meal at night. It's just not realistic. Some work two jobs, some work jobs that leave them exhausted at the end of the day.

Knowledge; Many lower class citizens do not know the basics of proper nutrition, which can mean that even in an attempt to eat healthier, they will buy misleading products, labeled all-natural, low-sodium, etc, which in essence are little different than the 'normal' stuff.

Coupons; I don't know if they do this in the UK, but mailers go out here with coupons intended to make foods more affordable. The problem is that there are no coupons to buy healthier food. It's all crap. If you don't believe me, take a look at them the next time you get your Sunday paper. they're jam-packed with coupons for chips and other garbage, already pretty cheap, and made more affordable.

And here is the link you requested proving that a higher volume of vegetables is needed to provide the same energy intake. The exception being high-protein nuts, and high-carbohydrate grains like barley.

Caloric Values

Here is a study that illustrates the principle of what I'm saying (in rats)

Vegan Rats!

Finally, here is an article illustrating that there is a vital necessity for meat in the development of children.

"Meat provides a concentrated source of essential micronutrients such as zinc, vitamin B12, calcium, iron and vitamin A, which cannot easily be obtained solely from plant foods,"

Source

please don't take me saying "lazy" as implying that goes for your character. This is all within the context of food, and cooking. truth is, the time spent posting and reading to this forum could just as easily be used cooking, if time is really that much of an issue.

Originally posted by Loki
The exception being high-protein nuts, and high-carbohydrate grains like barley.

right. there's more than a few sources right there! don't forget soy.

there is a vital necessity for meat in the development of children.

"Meat provides a concentrated source of essential micronutrients such as zinc, vitamin B12, calcium, iron and vitamin A, which cannot easily be obtained solely from plant foods,"

Source

highly debatable. first, note the verbage. "cannot easily be obtained solely from plant foods." That's a bit misleading. Easily compared to what? That's a logical fallacy. I suggest you look into the China Study. I would say read it, but it's not really something I would be able to read. Summaries are much better.

www.thechinastudy.com...

The findings? “People who ate the most animal-based foods got the most chronic disease … People who ate the most plant-based foods were the healthiest and tended to avoid chronic disease. These results could not be ignored,”

p.s. I am not vegan. I ate a ribeye tonight, almost purple in the middle

reply to post by scientist


mmm, ribeye. *drools*

Anyway, soy is great. I actually love curried Tofu. However it's not what you'd call economical. It's pretty expensive, honestly. I'm reading the China study now.

And easy is the key word. It would be very difficult to make a kid choke down things they don't want to eat, in sufficient quantities. So, would you rather try to convince a kid to eat a 4 oz hamburger, or 12 oz of spinach?


[edit on 11-20-2007 by Loki]

I have seen the same stats. I have always questioned why it costs so much more to eat "better". It also costs more and more to slowly do damage to yourself by smoking.

It's interesting how a lot of people here blame everybody but themselves!!! Where is the self-responsibility?

Some people here are saying the govt. isn;t doing enough???? They shouldn't be doing ANYTHING except insuring the food is not tainted with dangerous chemicals/pesticides. Since when do other tax-paying citizens owe you food?

I was on the street in downtown last weekend and a homeless guy was playing the drums. I felt sorry for him and gave him a couple bucks. It was getting cold and windy. He said he was hungry. It was 2am. I'm a musician too. I figured...at least he was trying.

I decided to buy him something to eat at a nearby store. He packed up his drums, we headed over there. I had $20.

I told him--I have $20. You can spend it all, feel free to pick whatever you want, then come back and we'll go to the register.

This was a large, nice supermarket with a deli/bakery, tons of good, cheap food.

Guy comes back 3 pints of Ben Jerry's New York Fudge Chunk ($5ea for a gd pint!) + 2 boxes of Twinkies + 1 box of Ding Dongs. I started to say maybe you should get some healthier stuff but it was like f'it.

-----------------

CARBS: I have a 20lb bag of rice I bought for like $12. That lasts a couple months and covers all carbs.

PROTEIN: I buy lean ground beef $1.99/lb. and tuna cans ($.50 on sale). (less lean beef is even cheaper)

FIBER: In bulk, beans are dirt cheap, oatmeal is cheap.

FRUIT/VEGETABLES: Tomatoes (canned) are healthy and dirt cheap. For greens, Cabbage is like $.99. Lettuce is usually cheap. Potatoes and Onions are dirt cheap. Usually some other fruit is cheap depending on the season.

Bottom line is you should be able to feed a family of 4 for like $5-10 a day AND eat very healthy. And an hour of work at minimum is ~$8. So that's about 1 hour a day work to feed a family of 4. + there is unemployment, welfare and free food at the various soup kitchens if you really don't have the money.

So let gets this straight once and for all----it's NOT a MONEY OR GOVERNMENT ISSUE.

I have a few questions for the people who don't think that the US government should intervene in anyway.

1. Since the government is already intervening, by subsidizing certain dairy farmers, do you propose that we stop?

2. Do you think that increased governmental intervention will help to allay health-care costs associated with obesity?

3. From my understanding, the EU doesn't import foodstuffs containing certain ingredients. Do you think that would be a good, cost-effective way for the US government to approach the problem?

When you think about it, each and every person online right now is making use of the result of a project funded largely by US tax-payers...so, really, do any of us have the right to be so selfish when the subject is nutritious food? It's important for all of us to remember, especially when it comes to our basic needs, that no man is an island.

I think a point many people fail to realise is the fact that, for the most part, our foodstuffs are very rarely local products. Not just fruits and vegetables, but grains and meats both processed and live, are routinely juggled across the globe. One of the primary reasons for US farm subsidies is the fact that most foods can be grown overseas and then shipped back to north america cheaper than the american farmer can produce them. Blame this on economic exchange rates, costs of labour land values and a hundred other causes. Many people fail to understand that almost all the food staples we are accustomed to are commodities traded on a global marketplace, no different than gold or oil. It might also interest some of you whom are curious just how monopolistic the global food trade really is......A handfull of companies ( almost all private, not publicly traded entities ) controll almost all of the global food distribution network. ever heard of a company called Cargill? most of you will not have, but they controll approximately 25% of the global grain trade, owning grain elevaters, terminals ( inland and water based ) a fleet of ships, fertilizer production/mines, let alone their ownership or majority stake in fertilizer mines, cattle processing, canneries and more related buisness ventures than even i can imagine. A truely global company, they have buisness ventures in and or with almost every nation on earth.....Google em sometime......Hell i bet that company alone could spawn a hundred conspiracy minded threads.....

sorry yall, been up for 30 hours straight, im ramblin.....

just my 2 cents....

>>1. Since the government is already intervening, by subsidizing certain dairy farmers, do you propose that we stop?

Yes. Stop subsidizing dairy farmers.

>>2. Do you think that increased governmental intervention will help to allay health-care costs associated with obesity?

There should be no government intervention to help peopel with obesity. If family members, charities, whoever ants to help then have fun...obese fatass people need to stop eating for a while.

>>3. From my understanding, the EU doesn't import foodstuffs containing certain ingredients. Do you think that would be a good, cost-effective way for the US government to approach the problem?

People should be able to eat what they want to eat, provided the labeling is correct. If you want to eat 100% trans-fats then be my guest...except it should be labeled. In other words--transparency and no fraud but FREEDOM to choose. And I'm not paying your health bills.

[edit on 21-11-2007 by DayWatch]

Another thing that is going on with the food industry is that they add chemicals to the food to make them taste better (and some of these chemicals actually cause addiction to the food) and this is all done to sell more of their products.

There is nothing on the label that says "added MSG for better taste". Instead, they say "All Natural" or "Low Fat" or "0% Trans Fat per Serving", which really means, "small traces of trans fat that we don't have to tell you about".

Yes it is every person's responsibility to know what they're eating and select their food wisely, but when the food industry lies about what's in their products and the FDA allows it to happen and does nothing to educate consumers, then it's more difficult to put the blame on the individual that people claim are "fat and lazy".

To further prove my point, I'm seeing opinions here that are completely all over the table and everyone thinks they are right and know what they're talking about. One of the biggest problems is that people mistakenly believe what they're told or what they read or what they hear on TV without doing real research to find out the truth.

The food industry has no intention of making us healthy. Big Pharma has no intention of making us healthy. They have nothing to gain from us being healthy. There are plenty of grassroots health organizations that are doing the research and reporting the truth. Those are the ones to pay attention to because everyone else has their own agenda.




[edit on 21-11-2007 by annestacey]

[edit on 21-11-2007 by annestacey]

i onced lived in st. louis missouri, a small but semi crowded city that had plenty of high priced organic food stores that were no where near the poverty ridden areas(and furthermore non of them accepted food stamps which 99% of the people in urban areas used to buy food) s0...

we started a community garden which was 1 half a city block in a vacant lot, everyone in the neighborhood pitched in a hand planting seeds,weeding,composting ect. it was wonderful! neighbors canned for winter and just about everyone ate fresh veggies and some seasonal fruits all summer. some of the older folk made breads after everyone pitched in on the bulk indgredience.

I moved from there 5 yrs ago but i hear its still going strong every spring/summer. not a solution by far but a good idea i figured i would throw it out there.

Originally posted by Enrikez
This doesn't seem very fair. The people who cannot afford to eat healthy are stuck with disease and obesity because they cannot afford good food?

Does anyone else think this is disgusting?

Organic brown rice: 89 cents per pound

Organic dry beans or lentils: 99 cents per pound

Collard greens, mustard greens, cabbage, spinach... plant a seed... they're growing around my compound like weeds.

I have harvested 150 pounds of pecans off the ground, downtown, on vacant or commercial lots, this year. Free.

People are obese because they are lazy, have no self control, fail to cook meals from scratch, are unwilling to wait for a meal to be cooked from scratch, are willing to buy whatever is convenient, fail to avoid preservatives, transfat, and additives; choose foods to consume based upon taste, smell, and looks rather than nutritional value, and FAIL TO GROW WHAT THEY EAT.

People are poor for the same general reasons.

It is all an illusion. Free yourself. Brown rice and sprouted beans. Everyday.

Need I rant about the microwave?

I am,

Sri Oracle

Originally posted by annestacey
Yes it is every person's responsibility to know what they're eating and select their food wisely, but when the food industry lies about what's in their products and the FDA allows it to happen and does nothing to educate consumers, then it's more difficult to put the blame on the individual that people claim are "fat and lazy".

Very simple test... before I put something in my mouth:

Did it grow?
Did it grow organically?
Did I or my beloved grow it?
Is it a whole food? (apple, carrot, rice, etc.)
Have there been NO post harvest chemical processes or additives?
Have there been NO post harvest cooking processes that I or my beloved agent was not personally involved with?
Did it come to me without chemically synthesized packaging?
Did it grow locally?
Did I trade with my beloved agent, for this food, in good faith.
Does my body need this item to grow and maintain health?

Every answer should be yes, every time, to every question. You know the answers to the above questions regardless of what the manufacturer says on the box.

Any time there is a "NO" ...you are guilty.

When you are guilty, you become poor and unhealthy.

Forgive your past. Move forward on a clean path.

Healthy, wealthy, and wise.

I am,

Sri Oracle

Originally posted by Sri Oracle
Any time there is a "NO" ...you are guilty.

Not really, lots of people rent and arent allowed to grow things in the garden and lots of people live in flats or apartments without any garden access at all.

Also, lots of people live in a climate where its impossible, I take it youve never tried to grow any vegetables under 6 feet of snow?

I have been reading this for a couple of hours now, discreetly, I’m at work. I’m a little disturbed by the lack of compassion and empathy exhibited by a lot of the posters.

I have lived in a three countries in my life for significant amounts of time, I have been fat in each country so I’d like to just share briefly some of my experiences there.

USA: Grew up in Florida, went to school and college there. I started life as the child of two thin, healthy people. By the time I left the states ( 25 years later ) I was morbidly obese. Who do I blame? Obviously I must take some responsibility for my self, and I do! I let things spiral out of control. I didn’t exercise and ate too much, bottom line.

Switzerland: I found myself in a country that has a much bigger emphasis on healthy living. I ended up being the fattest person everywhere I went. It was very uncomfortable. In society where people walk everywhere, and buy meat from a butcher and bread from a baker, obesity isn’t the norm. Luckily, thanks to their excellent health care system (Everyone gets healthcare). I opted to have gastric bypass surgery (paid for by insurance). I lost the weight and have kept it off for almost two years.

UK: I’ve now been here a year and I see the same type of lifestyle as in the states. People drive everywhere, eat fast and easy and are obsessed with a culture of more more more…and that brings me to what I think is the crux of the matter.

My parents worked very hard to keep up a certain lifestyle. You know what I mean…have to have the house you can’t really afford, the car you don’t need, the designer clothes that don’t matter. They did this for us kids, and didn’t have time to take a breather, or cook a wholesome meal, or take us on hike. Don’t misunderstand, I don’t blame them, they did the best they could. They worked so very hard trying to give us kids the stuff that society said we should have, and now, it’s even worse. Parents don’t have time to cook healthy meals; they are busy working to pay off a mortgage or the latest trip to Disney.

In Switzerland people walk to the local grocery store (which in most towns is about the size of your local Circle K or Tesco Express). People walk to work, kids play outside, in summers most kids go to summer camp where they hike mountains and go swimming and breath fresh air whilst eating healthy wholesome foods grown on local farms


Anyway..enough of my rambling. I just think as a society we put way to much emphasis on "stuff".

I’ve learned. I refuse to get on the property ladder, I don’t own a car, I do what I can to support local foods. When I have kids I want to make sure that I have as much time as possible to spend with them, instead of having to work my self half to death or back to fat to provide them with the latest junk we are told we must have.

Originally posted by Enrikez
Being obese or overweight has many causes. Mostly a combination of things including genetics. Different bodies are built different ways.

No, there is only one cause of being overweight, it's consuming more calories than your body can process.

Yes, some people are more genetically disposed to burn less calories than others, and some have terrible lifestyles (not always 'chosen'), but the root cause is still over consumption.

Now I'm not saying that they don't put stuff in the food to encourage addiction and overeating, but some self control, a bit of education, and a few good choices is all it takes to shed the lbs.

Personally, I think it's less to do with intelligence, and more a lack of self respect/love, or it's a protection issue from insecurity. My 2c.

It seems clear to me that if you're poor, you shouldn't have children.

I'll say it again... If you're too poor to raise your children in a healthy environment including good nutrition, then why are you having kids.

We don't need more poor people on this planet. So stop having kids you cna't afford.

[edit on 21-11-2007 by Wildbob77]

GAOTU789's comments on filtered, cold water are right on the money.

I used to ride off-road dirt bikes and race them before that.
As well as reading the magazines dedicated to the sport and especially so what the MotoCross team Sports Physicians had to say about nutrition.

Pretty much the same as what's being said here as far as healthy diets go, but a couple of the magzines printed articles about dehydration and what to drink to hold it to a minimum.
Generally, sports drinks - Gatorade etc. - were deemed ok, but the very best thing to cool down and rehydrate an overheated and dehydrated rider was ice water.

Living here in the desert of N/W Arizona I usually carry water and Gatorade.
The water, as noted and the Gatorade just for the change in taste.

Folks who live in desert climes usually carry water with them, especially so for longer than usual trips.
Interestingly, I've seen California Highway Patrol officers working the desert highways get bottled water out of the patrol car's trunk and pass it out to stranded motorists.
More than likely the same is done by our Arizona Highway Patrol officers.

Officers from both states - and other desert states I'm sure - are very good about stopping to help a stranded motorist.
As evidenced by a flat tire episode on the race car trailer I experienced last Sunday morning just after dawn on Hwy 93 north of Wikieup.
Temps were only 46 degrees and once he determined I had the tools and a spare tire as well as an ample supply of water along with the capability to change the tire he was able to leave.

As you can see, the tire was quite flat.


Granted, a little off the subject here, but pointed out to denote the importance of fresh and cool water.
And I like to toss in a pic now and then....

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Getting back to the subject, I do miss the very fresh produce we enjoyed when we lived in the San Joaquin Valley in Central California.
Most of the produce here is ok, but iceberg lettuce is difficult to deliver the 400 or so miles to N/W Arizona so that it's fresh.
Sometimes when we get it, it's already started to brown up and doesn't last long.

Produce prices here reflect a small increase, more than likely for transportation costs, but still, it's not too bad.


Experience is a good teacher though, I've been doing most of the grocery shopping the last couple of years.
I've been appreciating very much how well Sweetie's done with the grocery budget over the years.
I try to shop sensibly, but still run over budget most times.

Winter's coming, today, our first relatively cold day.
Looking forward to stews and hearty soups.
You can make them quite tasty, and I believe they're reasonably healthy, especially when served with a fresh vegetable side dish and freshly baked bread.

I make a lot of fresh bread in the winter.
It's easy with a bread machine and a loaf costs about 1/3 and less compared to fresh bread prices at the market.

Guests love to enter our house when invited for dinner in the winter.
A good stew or soup on the stove and the bread machine filling the house with the great smell of fresh bread.

Vis a vis the comment about vegetable gardens I posted earlier, growing tomatoes here in the desert requires some shade, preferably from a green plastic screen overhead - or similar device.


One last comment and I'll shut up.
Do any of you folks have a hard time buying fresh bread at the market?
Seems if I don't hit the store on delivery day, which may be done only once a week, the bread is stale and in some cases staler than you'd find in the two day old bread store.

Originally posted by Loki
Time; Most lower class parents simply do not have the time to buy everything separate and cook a full blown meal at night. It's just not realistic. Some work two jobs, some work jobs that leave them exhausted at the end of the day.

I'm sorry I just don't get it. Poor people don't have the time or money to cook full blown meals?!?

What's wrong with a bowl of rice, a piece of dried fish and an apple or banana, or a bowl of beans with a tomato and chilli sliced in it? 95% of the worlds population lives very healthily on less than this every day.

Perhaps the problem is that North Americans (mostly) have this idea they are supposed to eat MONSTROUS amounts of food. I mean 3 heads of lettuce for 4 people as a side salad OMFG!

As far as healthy goes, less is most certainly more.

My wife and I recently did a few weeks touring Calif. We would order ONE starter to share between the 2 of us and still not manage to finish it. The waitress would come back for the main course order and not understand how we could already be full on half a starter.

When most non-americans visit and see portion sizes, the mystery of 'obese america' is nolonger a mystery. (perhaps with the exceptions of the Slovenians )

Is there another country in the world where you can buy your coffee in a bucket? In most countries where coffee is almost an art form, coffee comes in a thimble and is more satisfying!

[edit on 21-11-2007 by RogerT]

reply to post by Enrikez

i don't know what to think about that because as i'm unemployed i don't have so many money but i can eat healty every day so i don't think being rich means you can eat healty and if you are poor you will be obese coz of junk food etc... all is a question of choice, first, start with ""materialism"", what is better for you, have food in the fridge or get the newest car/cellphone/computer/tv/etc...? food i hope, what do we care to get those things, at what that will lead? expect to look rich when you are not, while driving your newest car or get a call on your new nokia (which can make camera and soon bathroom and maybe one day build your house in 1 hour) and then take it out of your pocket and that way every will see it (or not coz they are smaller and smaller every new generation). More new it will be, more expensive it will cost, if you really want it wait one year, it will be half price!

Now you have to buy your food/drink and it's aproximatly the same, what do we care to eat uncle ben's rice and drink coca cola? For 1 pack of uncle ben's i have 4 pack of "normal" rice same with the coke, 1 bottle of "real" coca cola equal to 3 "false" coke bottles. at least this the price of my usual supermarket, there is certainly differnce with the others country.

So you have your rice/pasta/etc... and your drinks, now you have to buy your vegetables, don't buy them in cans, i don't think there is still so much vitamines in them, it's better you wash and cut them yourself, more tasty, forget this ready to cook food, maybe they are good for your taste but not for your body or at least try to eat that less often as possible.

What i forgive? oh yes the proteins, why eat meat? do you know that in 50 grams of meat there is the same proportion of proteins than in 25 grams of soya? Also it's animal fat who is bad for organism not the vegatal proteins,
there is so many way to eat soya, you can even drink it, it's not very cheap, i know, but it's better for you and less expensive than meat.

For me, being poor doesn't mean eating bad, do you think this bourgeois with their big stomach are in good health? hopefully not, they will die cause of their fat or something connected to their alimentation( or maybe die of absurdity, it depand...).

This was just the view of a young vegan anarchist punk, if anyone want to debate just reply to me!

Oh yes i was on the way to forget that: NEVER COOK WITH YOUR MICROWAVE.

Thanks for reading, maybe that will help some people, at least i hope.

Have a nice day all


[edit on 21-11-2007 by ufopunx]

[edit on 21-11-2007 by ufopunx]