Why its pointless trying to prove god

Damiel, I will give you credit. you made some sense or other. yet it's pointless to try to prove the existence of god. I've learned the hard way. so you are right in that, but even so. It's easier to say that god is real, than to prove does not exist..you have much more to prove because god has more dealings in the real world than not.


1. church
2. bible.
3. millions of believers.
4. books.
5. films.
6. stories.

etc.

so as you can see, god is everywhere, real or not. I know you are the a worker of the darkside, but trust me when I say, the dark side will always loose by nature.

reply to post by Damien_Hell


Nor can you prove there isn't with 100% certainity.
This thread is just more of the ignorant little war you two groups have for the sake of itself.


[edit on 11-11-2007 by WraothAscendant]

reply to post by curiousbeliever


Good point.

Originally posted by jedimiller
Damiel, I will give you credit. you made some sense or other. yet it's pointless to try to prove the existence of god. I've learned the hard way. so you are right in that, but even so. It's easier to say that god is real, than to prove does not exist..you have much more to prove because god has more dealings in the real world than not.

Its easier to say ANYTHING is real then to prove its not, I'm serious try it.

1. church
2. bible.
3. millions of believers.
4. books.
5. films.
6. stories.

etc.

Almost every religion has those things, does that make all their gods real?

so as you can see, god is everywhere, real or not.

So is startrek, whats your point?

I know you are the a worker of the darkside,

JEDIMILLER....I AM YOUR FATHER!

but trust me when I say, the dark side will always loose by nature.

LOL you don't see the real world much do you?

Besides I thought you were ignoring me after I destroyed you "God is happyness" Idea. (Happyness is the result of chemicals being released from the brain btw)

[edit on 11-11-2007 by Damien_Hell]

[edit on 11-11-2007 by Damien_Hell]

reply to post by Damien_Hell


It might have been said already, but I'm not ready to reread this whole thread. So here goes...

This whole thread has consisted of you being on the offense, and others being on the defense. You're preaching "Prove it! Prove it!", and others are responding with efforts to explain what they think is some sort of empirical evidence. But let's face it, it can not be proven.

So to change gears for a moment, you prove to me that it does not exist.

And I hope that literal fallacies in a piece of literature isn't what you are going to depend on.

This whole thread has consisted of you being on the offense, and others being on the defense. You're preaching "Prove it! Prove it!", and others are responding with efforts to explain what they think is some sort of empirical evidence. But let's face it, it can not be proven.

Well they shouldn't say they can prove it. PROOF IS SCIENTIFIC NOT SUBJECTIVE. I've said it b4.

So to change gears for a moment, you prove to me that it does not exist.

And I hope that literal fallacies in a piece of literature isn't what you are going to depend on.

Ok heres some science. God can do anything meaning he's infinite, but he's not coporial. Which means he's energy. Infinite energy would need infinite space, since we've determined the universe is closed we know there isn't infinite space, so god couldn't fit in the universe.

[edit on 11-11-2007 by Damien_Hell]

Originally posted by Damien_Hell
Ok heres some science. God can do anything meaning he's infinite, but he's not coporial. Which means he's energy. Infinite energy would need infinite space, since we've determined the universe is closed we know there isn't infinite space, so god couldn't fit in the universe.

And here's some science, Pluto was a planet for a bit there. But then as time evolved, we figured out we made a mistake. Who is to say that the same can not be said here? This piece of science that proves God does not exist, in your opinion, could be incorrect.

Damien, before we continue... let's get a few things out in the open.

I am here to discuss this. I make this stance here today for discussion purposes.

What do I think of religion? Deep down I believe it is a form of social control that has been used to continuously monitor the behaviour of others. We have judicial systems today, but long before they existed how were societies expected to govern the behaviour of it's people? How? Tell them someone was watching, and when their number was called; they would be responsible for all of their behaviours.

Hence, a form of social control that has evolved into the systemic organizations that we see today. There are plenty of religions today, but all seem to be based on the same philosophy. No matter who we consider to be our god, we do believe that in the end we will be accountable for our actions here on earth.

With the development of our judicial system here in western society, there has been less of a need for religion. We can govern the behaviours of our people without having to feed them this story about an almighty power up in the heavens.

But then I think about death, and how permanent that is. And how much that will suck. Nobody wants to live life in fear of death all of the time. So what do we do? We create a story that allows us to take solace in the wake of death. It allows us to accept our future with a bit of ease. Ignorance, blind faith, whatever you want to call it; that's not a bad thing.

I'm selfish, because I don't practice any organized religion. I am not a firm believer where I turn to look for answers on a daily basis. I don't contribute. But when I am in the time of need, and a loved one is on their death bed; I do turn to my faith and I do pray. Why? As a coping mechanism. Selfish and hypocritical, but it gets me through the day.

Tell them someone was watching, and when their number was called; they would be responsible for all of their behaviours.

So scare them into obedience, good system there. Same as a dictator

Hence, a form of social control that has evolved into the systemic organizations that we see today.

We're all fully aware that religion is required to form a civilization.

There are plenty of religions today, but all seem to be based on the same philosophy. No matter who we consider to be our god, we do believe that in the end we will be accountable for our actions here on earth.

Thats the only reason ppl will believe in them

But then I think about death, and how permanent that is. And how much that will suck. Nobody wants to live life in fear of death all of the time. So what do we do? We create a story that allows us to take solace in the wake of death. It allows us to accept our future with a bit of ease. Ignorance, blind faith, whatever you want to call it; that's not a bad thing.

I would rather have a bunch of people scared of death and constantly searching for ways to live longer then people going, BAH I'll go to heaven when I die. Besides look at me, am I scared of death? No.

I am not a firm believer where I turn to look for answers on a daily basis.

Why don't you just ask yourself for answers on a daily basis

But when I am in the time of need, and a loved one is on their death bed; I do turn to my faith and I do pray. Why? As a coping mechanism. Selfish and hypocritical, but it gets me through the day.

My grandma died about a week ago. I didn't need a coping mechanism, I didn't need to pray. I'm a realist, theres nothing I can do, so I should just accept it. And I did. Does that make me a bad person? No. Does that make me a cold and heartless person? No. It means I can deal with the real world as it comes without the help of some "divine figure"

Originally posted by Damien_Hell
So scare them into obedience, good system there. Same as a dictator

Man, you really need to stop putting words in the mouths of other members.

Where did I say this was a good system? Where did I imply that this was a good thing? I never said it was good, I just said what I thought.

Originally posted by Damien_Hell
I would rather have a bunch of people scared of death and constantly searching for ways to live longer then people going, BAH I'll go to heaven when I die. Besides look at me, am I scared of death? No.

And how would you of dealt with the chaos hundreds of years ago, long before we had a developed judicial system?

Originally posted by Damien_Hell
Why don't you just ask yourself for answers on a daily basis

Because I don't want to.

Originally posted by Damien_Hell
My grandma died about a week ago. I didn't need a coping mechanism, I didn't need to pray. I'm a realist, theres nothing I can do, so I should just accept it. And I did. Does that make me a bad person? No. Does that make me a cold and heartless person? No. It means I can deal with the real world as it comes without the help of some "divine figure"

Those are your words, not mine. I never said you were cold or a heartless person. I just said how I coped with my adversity surrounding death. You deal with it in a different way. Neither of us are right or wrong, we just have a difference in our approach.

There is too much of an emphasis on right and wrong, good or bad, strong or weak. It is what it is; nothing more, nothing less.

And yes, that is exactly what it means. You cope without turning to a divine figure. Others do, you do not. There is nothing else to it.

Please stop generalizing the stereotype of every religious zealot onto my posts. That's not who I am, and that's not what I'm saying.

Thank you.

Hi guys. This is my first post on ATS so I'd just like to say hello first.

This is certainly a lively discussion but when religion is involved it usually is.

It isn't my intention to get into a slanging match here nor to express my beliefs one way or the other. All I want to do is ask those of you who are interested to have a look at this web page:

Where Did the Information in Cells Come from?

Call it food for thought.

Any thoughts on this?

Thanks.



[edit on 11-11-2007 by kininigen]

Originally posted by kininigen
Any thoughts on this?

Thanks.

All known languages, alphabets and codes, as well as the information spoken or written in them, originated in minds.

Well, we have some sort of apparent logical argument here:

1. All languages, alphabets and codes, as well as the information come from minds.

2. DNA is a language/code/alphabet

3. Therefore DNA came from a mind.

Do you agree that's the argument here, yes?

[edit on 11-11-2007 by melatonin]

Originally posted by kininigen
Hi guys. This is my first post on ATS so I'd just like to say hello first.

This is certainly a lively discussion but when religion is involved it usually is.

It isn't my intention to get into a slanging match here nor to express my beliefs one way or the other. All I want to do is ask those of you who are interested to have a look at this web page:

Where Did the Information in Cells Come from?

Call it food for thought.

Any thoughts on this?

Thanks.

I'll read that when a commercial is on but from the short bit I read, I can tell that these people assume that cells and bacteria have always been as complicated as they are now, which is very VERY unlikely. If you turn the the discovery channel right now. (depends on time zone) Theres a show on talking about evolved humans. And I mean real people, who they interview

Well, we have some sort of apparent logical argument here:

1. All languages, alphabets and codes, as well as the information come from minds.

2. DNA is a language/code/alphabet

3. Therefore DNA came from a mind.

Do you agree that's the argument here, yes?

That makes very little to no sense

[edit on 11-11-2007 by Damien_Hell]

Originally posted by melatonin

Well, we have some sort of apparent logical argument here:

1. All languages, alphabets and codes, as well as the information come from minds.

2. DNA is a language/code/alphabet

3. Therefore DNA came from a mind.

Do you agree that's the argument here, yes?

Hi melatonin.

I don't have an argument as such but I do find this subject very interesting and think this web page opens another avenue of investigation which is why I posted the link. In answer to your points:

1. All known evidence supports the idea that languages/alphabets/codes etc originate from an intelligent source.

2. DNA is a carrier or a medium containing information be it language, alphabets, codes, the building blocks of life as we know it, etc

3. It's difficult to imagine that DNA happened by chance in my opinion so the writer's argument that it originated from a mind or to put it another way, an intelligent source is intriguing.

Okie doke.

Well, the problem is that 1 is wrong, there are good examples of codes/patterns evolving using evolutionary algorithms. And so, therefore, 3 is also wrong.

For example, Ev. In this system, zero information develops into complexity that is comparable to that found in DNA.

In essence, biological information can evolve by natural selection.

Simplicity ---> complexity

ABE:

That makes very little to no sense

If the premises are true, then it is correct. The problem is that it fails at premise 1.

[edit on 11-11-2007 by melatonin]

If the premises are true, then it is correct. The problem is that it fails at premise 1.

I thought you meant that since language came from a mind. DNA had to come from a mind. Linguistic evolution is pretty visible and easily imaginable.

1. All known evidence supports the idea that languages/alphabets/codes etc originate from an intelligent source.

Humans

3. It's difficult to imagine that DNA happened by chance in my opinion so the writer's argument that it originated from a mind or to put it another way, an intelligent source is intriguing.

Its not that hard to imagine, just realize that cells were VERY simple back in the beggining

[edit on 11-11-2007 by Damien_Hell]

[edit on 11-11-2007 by Damien_Hell]

It's pointless trying to prove God's existence to everyone else, as you can only prove it to yourself. That's if your lucky enough to experience a OBE, NDE or spiritual experience through meditation. Just because science can't yet prove the existence of GOD doesn't mean that GOD doesn't exist. Both humanity and science are in their infancy compared to the age of this Universe and beyond. Science itself probably hasn't even uncovered 1% of the Universe & beyond.

Originally posted by kindred
It's pointless trying to prove God's existence to everyone else, as you can only prove it to yourself. That's if your lucky enough to experience a OBE, NDE or spiritual experience through meditation. Just because science can't yet prove the existence of GOD doesn't mean that GOD doesn't exist. Both humanity and science are in their infancy compared to the age of this Universe and beyond. Science itself probably hasn't even uncovered 1% of the Universe & beyond.

Thats why I don't try to disprove the existence of god or gods, just religion. Its ignorant to say I can disproves god/gods. But its more ignorant to say that the god of any organized religion is the real one. God was created by mans ego.

reply to post by Damien_Hell


why is it pointless to try and prove G-D exists to those that dont believe?because the lust we have to aquire what we havent worked for or the desire to aquire what is unlawfull for us to have is stronger than our will to resist the temptation to grab it now while we have a chance to get it------------just in case G-D would say no before we get it-----you cant have it.why would i want to have a guilty conscience worrying that G-D might say no ?leave me alone i owe you nothing---- i am not a psychiatrist but from my 60 years of having to suffer at the hands of nuts working on half a brain ---i would say this is your answer-----without G-Ds help we are only half there----mentaly/spiritualy----we are half wits----we need G-D but we are too proud and guilt ridden to ask for help-----until its almost too late and in some cases like my recently deceased father ---never--to my knowledge in this life.

without G-Ds help we are only half there

AAAGGHGGHH MY LEGS!!!!!!

----mentaly/spiritualy

oh

we are half wits----

Speak for yourself

we need G-D

wrong

but we are too proud and guilt ridden to ask for help

wrong again

until its almost too late and in some cases like my recently deceased father --never--to my knowledge in this life.

What? Did he convert or not? Your grammar and ----- are confusing.

We don't need gods. Atheists prove that. I live a perfectly normal life and I've been god-free for....8 years or so. I think.(cant quite remember)

First of all Yahn, My deepest sympathy's to you for the loss of your father.

Well I don't think anyone has the right to tell anyone else what to believe. It's called freewill. Everyone should find out the truth for themselves. You can offer guidance but it's wrong to force an opinion or a belief onto someone else. My dad is so anti-religious or spiritual and thinks it's all nonesense and is always telling me so. I'm my own person and therefore, I will decide what's nonesense and what isn't.

I personally don't believe we need to ask GOD for help. What we need to do is believe in ourselves and stop imposing limitations and boundaries on ourselves and each other. I've had a few spiritual experiences, including OBE's and a NDE and they didn't happen because I asked GOD for help. They happened simply because I believed and never gave up trying to connect with my higher self. We all have the ability, but how many people even try. Simply because they don't believe or are not interested. But then that's their prerogative and nobody else's business. God is not seperate from us. There is nothing in this universe that does not contain GOD (My opinion). One thing I don't like about certain religions is how they try to make people feel guilty or fearful. You certainly won't connect with your higher self or find GOD through guilt and fear, only love and compassion.