Why its pointless trying to prove god

reply to post by kinglizard


Actually yes, since most of society believes in a god which seems to be screwing the Earth over.

There was a peroid in my life when I questioned the faith I had in God. For reasons I still don't undersdtand I could not even look at a church or stay around where there was a conservation about God.

I decieded to study magic. I called it "white magic". I figured black magic was evil so I was ok getting into white magic. I bought what few books there were at the book store and ordered more on the subject.

How cool it would be if I could control the wind. That was my first goal. This thought was coming from a girl that was raised in a Christain home and very active in church.

I began to sew little bags to hold different items for spells. I was feeling very full of myself and so powerful.

I had not set foot in the church I was a member of for over 2 years. Then a strange thing happened. I was sitting in my offfice one morning and the new pastor of our church called. My family had met him but I had not. He asked me to consider teaching a young adult sunday school class.

I ran out of the office to look for an old lady I had prayed with years ago...she wasn't home. I was about to panic. My mind felt like it was going to burn out. I felt helpless.

I finally drove to a small lake in the woods, got out of my car and started shouting at God. I don't know how long I shouted, cryed and it seemed I was turning in circles. Suddenly as I was looking at the tree tops they began to sway and a gentle wind fell on my face.

I had my answer. The very thing I wanted to control was whipping the tops of the trees God had created. I looked at the trees and knew that man can recreate most anything but show me a man that can create an oak or a pine tree.

Mr. Hell I will not deffend my God as He needs no defense. The trees, flowers, oceans are my solid proof there is a God.

Originally posted by kinglizard

Originally posted by Damien_Hell
So your admitting you have NO scientific evidence to prove your religion is true and will continue to rely on subjectivism to guide you life?

Well duuurrrr, there is no scientific proof that I or anyone else can present to you that would prove the existence of God. What part of FAITH don't you understand?

BLIND faith, you have BLIND faith.

reply to post by Damien_Hell



Very well said Damien...ermm Hell (say, any hidden agendas? heheh).

You can't rationlize the irrational. Period. There's no point in even trying either - as it makes one look particularily stupid.

The pagan Greeks & Romans believed in their gods' too - with all the fervour (perhaps more..) than christian & musilim fanatics revere their gods' today - yet you don't see too many 'Zeus Festivals' or 'Temples of Heracles' around these days, do you?

Does that mean Zeus and Heracles don't exist any more? Or were they simply mediteranean ficticious creations like the christian & muslim gods were middle eastern creations?

The answer is pretty obvious I'd say...

Jimbo


[edit on 10-11-2007 by jimbo999]

Originally posted by dizziedame
The trees, flowers, oceans are my solid proof there is a God.

ummm.. =.=
That's as much proof god exists as me creating nature in my past life.

reply to post by dizziedame

''Mr. Hell I will not deffend my God as He needs no defense. The trees, flowers, oceans are my solid proof there is a God.''

Well, they are proof that their is LIFE on earth - proof too that evolution is at work, sure. But God? Nope, I don't think so

Sorry. Maybe you need to believe, and that's fine, as I have no problems with that.

What I DO have problems with, are fanatics and whackos (present company excluded) coming on this board and spouting a bunch of brainless nonsense - wasting everyones time, on what otherwise is a great and informative tool on the Net.

Jimbo

Originally posted by AncientVoid
reply to post by kinglizard

 

Actually yes, since most of society believes in a god which seems to be screwing the Earth over.

Hmmm, actually, in Europe something like 65% of the population is agnostic; in N. America it's not too far behind. It's just the radical fringes in the US that skew the numbers for their own political gain.

Jimbo

I'm not one to engage in much religious discussion, but I feel the need to speak up here.

As an Agnostic, I endure a lot of confusion when it comes to this subject. I have had times when I turned to my faith, but at the same time, I've questioned it. However, I have never faulted someone for having faith in a higher being; even when I disagreed.

Some individuals have the luxury of basing their beliefs off of empirical evidence. Others do not have that. Others have not had the opportunity to experience some sort of connection. But because some of us can not empirically prove our beliefs, that doesn't imply that people deserve to be faulted for it.

I'm watching members flock here screaming, "Prove it! Prove it!". Prove what? Honestly though, prove what? Prove that someone has a faith in a higher god? What, or why, do I have to prove that? Why do you care?

Our fellow member kinglizard has a strong faith. Why do some people care so much what he thinks, what he believes, or if he can empirically prove it? What does it matter? Are we that self-involved that we can not allow someone to rest peacefully in their own thoughts?

Does everything have to be physically proven?

I don't ask people to prove god exists. I don't ask people to prove god doesn't exist. The question itself is pointless. Believe what you want to believe, and leave everyone the hell alone about it.

Can some people not accept that someone has a difference of opinion?

Originally posted by kinglizard

Originally posted by Damien_Hell
Faith isn't proof, I could have faith the suns gonna implode in 3 seconds. I haven't proved it yet

I didn't say faith equals proof, I said the only way to find proof is to begin with faith.

[edit on 11/10/2007 by kinglizard]

Huh? So the only way to avoid ignorance - is to become ignorant? That's basically what you're saying, right? Wow - that's an incredibly Orwellian statement!

Please read my first post on this subject...

Jimbo

Originally posted by dizziedame
There was a peroid in my life when I questioned the faith I had in God. For reasons I still don't undersdtand I could not even look at a church or stay around where there was a conservation about God.

I decieded to study magic. I called it "white magic". I figured black magic was evil so I was ok getting into white magic. I bought what few books there were at the book store and ordered more on the subject.

How cool it would be if I could control the wind. That was my first goal. This thought was coming from a girl that was raised in a Christain home and very active in church.

I began to sew little bags to hold different items for spells. I was feeling very full of myself and so powerful.

I had not set foot in the church I was a member of for over 2 years. Then a strange thing happened. I was sitting in my offfice one morning and the new pastor of our church called. My family had met him but I had not. He asked me to consider teaching a young adult sunday school class.

I ran out of the office to look for an old lady I had prayed with years ago...she wasn't home. I was about to panic. My mind felt like it was going to burn out. I felt helpless.

I finally drove to a small lake in the woods, got out of my car and started shouting at God. I don't know how long I shouted, cryed and it seemed I was turning in circles. Suddenly as I was looking at the tree tops they began to sway and a gentle wind fell on my face.

I had my answer. The very thing I wanted to control was whipping the tops of the trees God had created. I looked at the trees and knew that man can recreate most anything but show me a man that can create an oak or a pine tree.

Mr. Hell I will not deffend my God as He needs no defense. The trees, flowers, oceans are my solid proof there is a God.

mmmm, I think you had a nervous breakdown. Not only is that whole speel subjective AND THEN SOME, its also not proof. Your "solid proof" is an assumption, that broke one of the rules of real proof. Besides I could replace god with Allah and church with mosque and BAM, proof of Allah!

Are we that self-involved that we can not allow someone to rest peacefully in their own thoughts?

I can only assume you mean that to the theists as much as me

Does everything have to be physically proven?

Short answer: Yes

[edit on 10-11-2007 by Damien_Hell]

Originally posted by Damien_Hell

Originally posted by kinglizard
Yes I understand...please let me know what proof you would accept.

Your right there is an echo. HARD SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE pointing towards not just a god but YOUR god. If you can show me that I'll be more then happy to convert. if you want some specifics, any hard evidence can be used. Can't be subjective, an assumption, circular logic, contradictory or unbacked.

How about a 'supernatural event' that can't be explained logically by science - that is tied to one of the christian god's relics of antiquity - let's say The Ark of the Covenant.

But it would HAVE to be in a controlled enviroment under verifiable scientific scrutiny in an acredited institution of some sort. THAT would be proof.

Jimbo

Originally posted by Damien_Hell
Short answer: Yes

Hundreds of years ago, nobody could prove that the Earth was round.

Originally posted by chissler

Originally posted by Damien_Hell
Short answer: Yes

Hundreds of years ago, nobody could prove that the Earth was round.

But they proved it didn't they, and in turn proved the Christian church and the bible wrong. Seeing as the bible says the world is flat and is the center of the universe. (BTW there are some ppl who still believe the world is flat and the center of the universe)

reply to post by chissler

''I don't ask people to prove god exists. I don't ask people to prove god doesn't exist. The question itself is pointless. Believe what you want to believe, and leave everyone the hell alone about it.

Can some people not accept that someone has a difference of opinion?''

I agree - I just wish many of the religious right who seem to take an unholy glee in coming onto this board and making outrageous statements (you know the posts- the 'God Exists - Because The Bible Says So' types) purely to pick an argument with the majority here - who are obviously looking for more concrete answers to the questions around us - would find somewhere ELSE to take their bibles to.

I thought this place was about 'Questioning' assumptions - not 'Conforming' to them...


Jimbo

Originally posted by Damien_Hell
But they proved it didn't they, and in turn proved the Christian church and the bible wrong. Seeing as the bible says the world is flat and is the center of the universe. (BTW there are some ppl who still believe the world is flat and the center of the universe)

It's a book written by man, at a time when people believed the world to be flat.

Fact of the matter is, what we believe today and what we can prove today, is not what is necessarily true. Does proving the bible wrong indicate that God does not exist? Is a piece of literature the end all, be all?

Does religion have to exist concurrently with this literature?

The bible says a lot of things, none of which I am overly concerned with.

Proving specific facts false does little to deter my faith, or lack thereof.

[edit on 10-11-2007 by chissler]

Originally posted by jimbo999
reply to post by chissler

 

''I don't ask people to prove god exists. I don't ask people to prove god doesn't exist. The question itself is pointless. Believe what you want to believe, and leave everyone the hell alone about it.

Can some people not accept that someone has a difference of opinion?''

I agree - I just wish many of the religious right who seem to take an unholy glee in coming onto this board and making outrageous statements (you know the posts- the 'God Exists - Because The Bible Says So' types) purely to pick an argument with the majority here - who are obviously looking for more concrete answers to the questions around us - would find somewhere ELSE to take their bibles to.

I thought this place was about 'Questioning' assumptions - not 'Conforming' to them...


Jimbo

I think about half of those ppl are just trolls, the rest are genuine

reply to post by chissler


Scientist knew the Earth was orbiting the Sun but what happened to them when they tried to speak out? They got killed and burnt. This lasted for 1400 years! Guess who did the killing and why?

The reason people believing effects everyone is it rages war and blankets us with ignorance. Imagine how far we could have advanced in those 1400 years.

Edit: Proving the bible wrong doesn't prove there's no god. But it proves that certain god doesn't exist.

[edit on 10-11-2007 by AncientVoid]

reply to post by NuclearPaul


You can BELIEVE in UFO's. Or you can actually see one up close in daylight - then you are no longer a 'believer' in UFO's per se - because you now have PROOF. I can BELIEVE in Sant Claus too. But my chances of ever finding proof are somewhat...errmm...remote.

Jimbo

It's a book written by man, at a time when people believed the world to be flat.

wrong. Any christian will tell you that the bible was written by god.

Does proving the bible wrong indicate that God does not exist? Is a piece of literature the end all, be all?

It proves that "god" doesn't exist.

Does religion have to exist concurrently with this literature?

If said literature was written by their god, then yes

The bible says a lot of things, none of which I am overly concerned with.

You haven't read the parts where the bible tells you what groups should be wiped from the face of the earth have you??

reply to post by Solarskye

''It doesn't matter to me what people believe as long as they don't try to throw it off on me and say I'm going to hell if i don't repent.''

But isn't that EXACTLY what most christians are taught to beleive? They are actually charged by their churches to go out and make 'sinners' like me & you 'repent' - because we will otherwise 'go to hell'. Correct?

The Pagans never did this to people. Why? Because they were NOT monotheistic - they assumed one could worship any god one wanted too - as they all had parallel deities anyhow. So no toes were being stepped on. Cults like Christianity and Islam changed all that. They made religion a ruthless, power-crazed tool of authoritarianism & ignorance.

If ONLY monotheism was more philisophically in line with the late-classical concepts of paganism. But it's not.

Therefore, this recent world-wide religious backlash is a dangerous drift into irrationality that endangers the whole planet today. Cast your eye over Pakistan, Iraq, Iran, Israel, Afghanistan and the White House and tell me organised religion isn't today's greatest threat to the planet after global warming? I don't see how you could if you were really honest with yourself

Jimbo