Why its pointless trying to prove god

Originally posted by kininigen
There is evidence of biological/physical evolution for sure but not as Darwin would describe. What about punctuated equilibrium.

Lots of stuff has changed since the days of Darwin, but the essential part of his theory stands - descent with modification and natural selection. In some of his later editions of origins, Darwin accepted that evolution can vary in rate.

I can't see why you think this is so relevant. He was certainly wrong about the mechanism of heredity. So what.

Guess I'm not a POMO relativist then. Some points, in whatever arena they originate from, may hold some value, some may not. Only the observer can decide when enough evidence is available. That doesn't mean those points can be dismissed either, that would be like dismissing Copernicus, in his time, for his theory on Heliocentrism.

Aye, so it's all subjective, down to individual observers. Sounds very POMOish. Thus, someone who believes homeopathy is more than placebo holds this notion in high value, even though evidence is lacking and indeed is actually contradicted.

Copernicus had evidence, predominately mathmatical, but evidence all the same.

And it's my prerogative to consider that which you believe has 'no real-world basis'. What do you consider to be 'real-world'?

The fact you even ask that question makes me go 'ugh'. Fairies are almost certainly not part of the real-world, goats are.

Things with real-world basis have valid and reliable evidence.

Couldn't agree with you more. But then you don't know what is made up until science proves otherwise.

And so we keep sacrificing real-world goats and praying to invisible fairies for favours until science rolls into town. But, of course, science will never falsify such fanciful wishful-thinking. Pity the poor goats...

[edit on 21-11-2007 by melatonin]

So far in this Debate there have been 3 sides, 1st those who say that god doesnt exisist and if he does then proove it, 2nd thiests who have been born and raised there whole life and beleived in something, they find all who judge them offensive and thats there GOD given right,3rd there is Athiests and Thiests they will sit on the side lines and watch.

When you think about it the only person who see's and act's like you is you, you are significent, imagine if you were the only one really alive and everyone else was your imagination who would you blame?

its impossible at this moment intime to say there is or isnt a god, i have had accuring dreams of "things" does that mean i im intuned with the "light" no, i have actually seen an angel when i was 6, i dont know if god exists, but im sure that something created everything, like a mother and father create a child, like a farmer raises crops, the creation is simple.

i beleive that Athiests should not provoke or insult thiests for thinking differently or beleiving in something different.

To me, my GOD is my parents and ancestors because withought them i would'nt have been created.

now theres logical evidence that everyone can be a GOD to somebody so THIESTS I HAVE PROVEN THERE ARE GODS, ATHIESTS I HAVE PROVEN THAT THERE ARE GODS.

please stop it at this.

peace out

No, I'm god...
Anyone that doesn't believe in me will suffer endlessly no matter who or what they do expect for those who believe in me.

I'm serious when i say I'm god and if you don't worship me your going to hell.
Where's the proof you ask? There is no proof except for these words as proof will hinder faith. In time you will be judged...

www.abovetopsecret.com...
O.K people lets be mature here.


For anyone who is asking for proof. You can’t prove anything. You can only try support and idea with scientifically based evidence and then some more evidence and then that evidence has to be scrutinized by many other professionals in the field and then it may be supported by the scientific community until new evidence arises that contradicts the initial idea.

Since the idea is faith….

From www.Dictionary.com

1. confidence or trust in a person or thing: faith in another's ability.
2. belief that is not based on proof: He had faith that the hypothesis would be substantiated by fact.
3. belief in God or in the doctrines or teachings of religion: the firm faith of the Pilgrims.
4. belief in anything, as a code of ethics, standards of merit, etc.: to be of the same faith with someone concerning honesty.
5. a system of religious belief: the Christian faith; the Jewish faith.
6. the obligation of loyalty or fidelity to a person, promise, engagement, etc.: Failure to appear would be breaking faith.
7. the observance of this obligation; fidelity to one's promise, oath, allegiance, etc.: He was the only one who proved his faith during our recent troubles.
8. Christian Theology. the trust in God and in His promises as made through Christ and the Scriptures by which humans are justified or saved.

Belief, confidence and trust…..mmmmh?

How are you supposed to scientifically support this????

How could you start a thread on this and expect people to give you evidence???

As you can see Faith has nothing to do with evidence it comes from belief, confidence and trust which in itself is a feeling.

If someone feels good, happy or reassured by having these feeling who is anyone to say that they should prove its existence.

The existence is totally irrelevant in the end if this feeling doesn’t hurt anybody and the individual feels better because of it.

These “existence” threads of higher entities or religions are utterly ridiculous….

reply to post by MuLongQun


i'm sorry, but faith in this example is #2: belief with no evidence...

which is what religion is, a lack of evidence, and thus IGNORANCE.

I dont think you got my point with my last post.....

People who believe don't require evidence so why ask for it....?

It's a belief based soley on feeling....

People who ask forevidence from people who don't require it is ridiculous.

I am not affiliated or believe in any higher entity or religion. I just dont' see the point in asking for proof or trying to prove something that doesn't require evidence in the first place.

reply to post by MuLongQun


Umm when they're stating it as facts... that's why... =.=...

Obviously you didn't read my posts properly.....

I said for either asking for evidence OR trying to provide evidence for the existence is ridiculous....

Originally posted by Damien_Hell
Plz prove god using the bible, come on lets see this magnificent proof.

you can't prove god using the bible. whether you believe in a god, the christian god, or a zebra striped god with a bulls head, it doesnt matter.
religion, or the lack thereof, is a personal choice. for some, not believing in a god or afterlife makes them happier than believing in one, or believing that if you don't believe, you will go to hell.

for example, i myself believe in god and jesus, i do not, however, go to church. i do not feel that you have to go to church to have a relationship with god, and that "church" is in your heart. i don't go to church because i don't like the politics involved in it. that is a personal choice of mine.

for another person, covering their body in tatoos and praying to chuckie cheese may be what brings them personal happiness. you can't apply logic to matters of the heart, because there isn't one standard. Logic deals in absolutes, and there is no grey area. there is no "maybe" or "might be" in logic, there's all, some, or none.

all you can do is respect other people's choices that they have made, and not pass judgement upon them for those choices. then again, maybe some people's religious beliefs revolve around passing judgement on others, and that is what brings them personal happiness... even still, it's their choice.

also. this argument could be a two way street, why don't you use logic to prove that there is no god? after all, if you're quick to jump on jedimiller for his (with all due respect) flawed logic involving god, then i would have to assume you have a deduction of some sort ready to prove otherwise, yes?

and just to be clear, im not flaming you or anything damien, im just saying lets see what happens when the logic is turned to the other side.

reply to post by sandman692


So it's logical to state something as fact or claim something is true without any edvience or proof at all?

As for using logic to disprove god, some cases yes but it can't happen if this 'god' can't be defined.

It is absolutely pointless trying to prove God's existence.

I consider the existence of the Universe (and the existence of many Universes) as proof of God. Whether that God is an actual independent being, or the sum of all Universes, I do not know. I simply know that I exist, therefore, existence is real. And existence is God... to me.

To others, God is a man in a cloud that is imaginary. This is the God which they do not believe in. This idea of God is why atheism is exploding in popularity. But it is the wrong idea... and there is no way to prove either way.

Originally posted by NewWorldOver
To others, God is a man in a cloud that is imaginary. This is the God which they do not believe in. This idea of God is why atheism is exploding in popularity. But it is the wrong idea... and there is no way to prove either way.

umm no...

reply to post by Damien_Hell

Ok you constantly made the point that noone can prove that there is a God with science or whatever your logic is but can you prove that there isn't? And the reason that most non believers claim to be non believers is because they are considered not intelligent if they give even half of an idea to creasionism. But honestly if you say that all that Christians do is live our lives according to a book over 2,000 years old and you turn around and listen to every word that a scientist says because he's been in college since 1912 and believe him without a shadow of a doubt how is that any different? And besides, without a God there is no reason for us to be here, there is no reason to stay here, and there is no logical explanation for how we got here. The Big Bang Theory basically says nothing exploded and made everything but recently a lot of scientists have been throwing out the idea of the possibility of this theory because of the obscene conditions that would have to take effect before this would even be plausable (temperature, right amount of Ions, Neurons, Protons, Right level of humidity, right level of speed of contact, right amount of space that each Ion would have to be to collide and not through off another set of Ions colliding.) The chances are 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 to 1
My closing statement to make is, lets say you're right. Say there is no God. You die. No big deal. Same thing happens to all of us. Now lets say that there is a God (which there is) and you leave this world no better or any different than you are now. You're screwed.
Think about that before you tell anyone that you've got it all figured out and tell people that noone can prove there is a God.

P.s. I just did

reply to post by madnessinmysoul

What exactly makes it ignorance? Isn't it so much more ignorant to have to double check for physical evidence and completely tossing the idea if you cant physically touch something than it is if you have believe something strong enough with out any physical evidence what so ever and you can honestly say that you know you're right?

Originally posted by AncientVoid
reply to post by sandman692

 

So it's logical to state something as fact or claim something is true without any edvience or proof at all?

As for using logic to disprove god, some cases yes but it can't happen if this 'god' can't be defined.

no, nothing can be stated as fact without evidence. that's why im saying that you can't apply logic to god. there is no proof that god exists. people that claim the bible is true only have instances in the bible where things ocurred that actually ocurred in history, but as far as god goes, there is no solid proof. if im misconstruing what it is you're saying, then please clarify, because as far as i can tell, we are in agreement.

and as far as what i said about using logic to disprove god, it was just a rhetorical question more or less, because damien wants someone to use logic to prove god exists, but there can be no valid argument for either side.

Originally posted by StandFirm
reply to post by madnessinmysoul

 

What exactly makes it ignorance? Isn't it so much more ignorant to have to double check for physical evidence and completely tossing the idea if you cant physically touch something than it is if you have believe something strong enough with out any physical evidence what so ever and you can honestly say that you know you're right?

nope...
double checking is far from ignorant, it's admitting fallibility and imperfection of judgment.

and also because you can't KNOW you're right from belief alone. you can BELIEVE you're right to the point that you delude yourself into BELIEVING that you know you're right.l

Originally posted by AncientVoid
So it's logical to state something as fact or claim something is true without any edvience or proof at all?

As for using logic to disprove god, some cases yes but it can't happen if this 'god' can't be defined.

For God sakes already. Everyday I get more fed up with the ignorance and denial going on at ATS. I don't know how many times I've put evidence out there for the existence of God and yet people have their heads up the asses. It kind of goes like this:

Atheist: there is no evidence of god.

Me: Yes there is, for example when people clinically die and leave their physical bodies and move into the afterlife, many encounter a being of light that communicates telepathically.

Atheist: there is no evidence of god.

Me: Uh, yes there is. They're called NDE's. Millions of people have had them, and many have seen and communicated with God. He appears as a being of intense light and emits a loving feeling.

Atheist: there is no evidence of god and faith = ignorance.

Me: I'm not basing this on faith but on observations by huge numbers of people including previous atheists. Saying there is no God is ignorance of phenomenon that show otherwise.

Atheist: there is no evidence of god, an invisible man in the sky.

Me: I've already pointed out several times the evidence of God, and if you read it you'd also see he isn't an invisible man in the sky.

Atheist: when you die it is the end, there is nothing after that.

Me: I've already pointed out countless times the phenomenon that prove otherwise including NDE's, past life memories, prenatal memories, and so on.

Atheist: there is no evidence of god, a believe in god as based on faith which means god doesn't exist.

Me: How friggen many times to I have to jam the evidence down you throat and put links to websites that prove otherwise?

Atheist: there is no evidence of god.

Me: (Thinking to myself, I'm dealing with idiots)

Do you people see the problem with ATS and people in general? There is nothing that's more of a waste of time than to just have to keep repeating yourself like a broken record to those people who can't and won't learn anything new. This just keeps going around in circles forever. Yes God exists and there is evidence of that. To keep saying otherwise means you're a flat out liar, plane and simple. The info has been around for decades and on this board countless times so there shouldn't be a person living in the modern information age world to not know that by now. What a waste of time all this is for some people to keep lying and keep ignoring the posts that show they're lying. It's like talking to a wall. As a matter of fact, a wall is smarter than most of these people.

“There are three claims in the ESP field which in my opinion, deserve serious study: … (3) that young children sometimes report the details of a previous life, which upon checking turn out to be accurate and which they could not have known about in any other way than reincarnation.” - Carl Sagan (Atheist Astronomer)

"A heart specialist from Chattanooga, Tennessee, has just finished a study of more than 100 patients brought back to life after being clinically dead. ‘The Good News’, he said, ‘is that some of them had a blissful encounter with a BEING OF LIGHT.’..."

This explains best, how he did, why he did . It is from the stanford library

It's got to be the most well thought out explanations I have ever read. Then I guess steven hawking would be in there somewhere.

plato.stanford.edu...

Darwin ?? wasn't he that guy who played Samantha Stevens Husband on Bewitched? is there any proof he ever existed?

Remember,, choose wisely, cuz when your dead,,

you're dead for a long time.

reply to post by Elhardt


O MY F*&#. Your the one who's seriously blind and ignorant!!

What you just said is a load of bull. You don't know how sad you look.

NDE's IS NOT PROOF OF GOD (sorry for caps, it's just some people are so dam thick!). Science can recreated these so called 'after death experiences'. Even so how are these proof of god? There's like an infinite reason for these (but your just too brainwashed and ignorant to see that). There's a big clue in there, and that is all those 'millions' of people have different experiences.

Past life memories, prenatal memories, and so on are also not proof of god. There's also a infinite reason for these. I hate saying this, but are all believers like this?

Before you type crap like that again, you should actually read what we said and not what you want to see.

Originally posted by Elhardt
As a matter of fact, a wall is smarter than most of these people.

Like you!

Originally posted by Elhardt
“There are three claims in the ESP field which in my opinion, deserve serious study: … (3) that young children sometimes report the details of a previous life, which upon checking turn out to be accurate and which they could not have known about in any other way than reincarnation.” - Carl Sagan (Atheist Astronomer)

You must seriously have no brain!! How in the world is this connected to god? THINK!!

Originally posted by Elhardt
"A heart specialist from Chattanooga, Tennessee, has just finished a study of more than 100 patients brought back to life after being clinically dead. ‘The Good News’, he said, ‘is that some of them had a blissful encounter with a BEING OF LIGHT.’..."

Do i see the word 'god' anywhere?? Maybe you do in your head.

Here's my quote:
"Use your brain"

Me: (Thinking to myself, I'm dealing with idiots)

Relax Christian,, again plato.stanford.edu...

That thread explains them as well and I am certain you will have the same spiritual epiphaney I had regarding something even we have trouble reconciling but as the "Bible says" He can not disown who is once a part of him and while we may be weak,, he stays strong.

You might consider not trying to argue this on ther terms and try using faith, thats why Jesus suggest it. If you don't have enough faith in that,, you now someone who does. Point is,, while they may laugh think we are stupid believeing in God or that fair tale book the bible.

They believe that we get the exquiste experience to be self aware and alive,, they live that life then die not knowing they ever lived it not ever knowing they even matter and it doesn't even matter that it doesn't matter. They don't even get a moment to face any creator and at least say "WTF you let me live and then im dead ?" "Whats the point"

That's the bottom line with Atheist my brother,, they make no point any point they make may as well never have been made, we all die what we think or have said is as dead as if we never were.

You and I on the other hand we miss out on nothing if we were wrong,, no one to tell us we were as none of that question ever happened or may as well never have and even what contribution we offered in an evolutionary context,, that finality will neither know nor will we. Even as I type I must ask,, for what? We don't matter. That is the promise of Atheism.

but if we are right about all that dumb stuff we read in the bible,,,

We will be glad we were dumb enough

to believe it

[edit on 15-12-2007 by Conspiriology]