Woman Dies after Airport Arrest

I don't see how turning this thread into a political agenda helps to solve this case at all! It has nothing to do with it. I believe it was a Freak accident. According to eyewitness accounts the woman was either drunk, crazy, suffering from alcohol withdrawals, or on dope with a mixture of the above. I agree the method of detainment ie- cuffed to a chain attached to a bench may not have been the best choice. That's probably the only thing that was available. They didn't have time to drill a eyebolt into a wall. The ideal choice would be a portable padded cell or a bed with four-point leather restraints. You can't base your decision on what's seen, in a simple video. This woman could have been a threat to the general public in her psychotic condition. Why didn't a member of her family accompany her? I believe this woman had a serious mental condition, before even going to the airport. Her family probably even knew it and were embarassed to go with her.
*If* a weight impaired officer had to apply assist with restraining this individual.....He is thoroughly trained in the procedure. Why is blame Always based on a fat cop? Seems kind of biased to me. Bruising to the torso would indicate excessive force. Wait for the reports to come in.
Evidence shows the chain got wrapped, around her neck somehow. Freaky things DO happen! Death may have not been by strangulation, but a combination of things going on. She could have had an Acute Myocardial Infarction or a rupture of an Abdominal Aorta Aneurysm.

reply to post by MountainStar



Nobody turned it into a "Political Agenda", until DG came along. So, you may want to address your post to her.

-Sour

now the news is popping out more info.

she was not drunk when she got to the airport. she went to one of th bar/restaurant deals and killed an hour(and had a couple drinks) to wait for the flight.
they said she got to the gate ONE MINUTE late, and they told her that her seat was given to someone else and thats when she started to get upset. then, she was trying to get on the next flight(1.5 hours later) and they told her the flight was full. then, another passenger offered to give her her seat/ticket, but they said no because it was a security issue.

seems like anyone would get upset for something like that and people are using this booze deal as an excuse for the treatment of her and her 'accidental' death.

you know man, 1 damn minute late and they can't let her board the plane....yeah, i woulda been upset too

reply to post by Boondock78


A 14-year old girl explained to me how the woman could have choked herself with the 16-inch handcuff chain. After watching her demonstrate, it makes perfect sense.

Imagine the hands behind the back and the woman trying to get the chain in front of her by bending forward and flipping the length of chain over her head. If she succeeded in getting the chain to the front, her hands would still be stuck behind her back. This would cause the chain to pull against her throat, choking her.

And by the way, leaving somebody in a holding cell is not negligent. In my opinion stating that it was the fault of the police, and not caused entirely by the immature temper-tantrum the woman threw is pathetic.

In fact, her tempter-tantrum at being forced to accept the consequences of her own actions is symptomatic of the entire entitlement mentality that seems so pervasive these days.

And yes, it is political. There is one political party and belief system that is forever pushing the idea that there is no such thing as personal responsibility for your own actions, and that if you suffer it means you must be a victim of society. The opposing view is to accept personal responsibility.

And yes, it is political. There is one political party and belief system that is forever pushing the idea that there is no such thing as personal responsibility for your own actions, and that if you suffer it means you must be a victim of society. The opposing view is to accept personal responsibility.

Why does everything have to be totally black or totally white? Most of life is somewhere in the middle. You're conveniently ignoring the fact the woman was ill, to begin with. And although THAT may have been her fault, she was in the process of trying to correct it at the time.

Have you ever encountered a person in delirium from sickness or disease ? They are not themselves and no court of law would blame them for acting uncharacteristically. Try making sense out of a conversation of a person with advanced alzheimers, for example. Some of it seems understandable, but a great deal of it isn't in this reality. It's back in their childhood, adolescence and young adult years. It's the brain malfunctioning. Apparently, when a person is in delirium withdrawals from a substance like alcohol, the brain also malfunctions and the person is suddenly not in this reality.

Anyway, a little compassion for the sick and suffering, never hurt anybody.

Originally posted by Boondock78
they said she got to the gate ONE MINUTE late, and they told her that her seat was given to someone else and thats when she started to get upset. then, she was trying to get on the next flight(1.5 hours later) and they told her the flight was full. then, another passenger offered to give her her seat/ticket, but they said no because it was a security issue.

If someone showed up to the gate and was suspected to be impaired whether it is from drugs, alcohol or a combination of the two, it’s the PSA’s job to not allow them to board the flight. My gut instinct tells me that this is what occurred in this instance, and they were using the “having given away her seat” as an excuse to not allow her to board. Even if she only had a few drinks, she might have been too impaired in the judgment of the Passenger Service Agent. Another thing to consider is that to treat withdraw, one of the things normally prescribed is a relaxant, such as Valium. It seems to me that Valium taken with alcohol can cause some one to become impaired well beyond the effects of simply drinking alcohol alone.

Airlines are private companies and they reserve the right to deny you passage for any reason they see fit, if you don’t believe this look on the back of an old ticket stub or jacket. There is some reason, whatever that may be, which made them deny her passage, and they have the final say on who boards or does not board their flights, period.

reply to post by defcon5


makes sense, IF all that happened.

was she on valium?
i take 4-5 v's a day..never underestimate ones tolerance.
also, it was 45 minutes that she sat at the sportsbar and had something to eat and something to drink.
in 45 minutes, were supposed to believe this lady showed up totally sauced?

i feel in my gut that she got there 1 minute early and the airport police wanted to show their power and enforce that rule and THAT is when she got upset.
thats what i feel in my gut.

maybe if the airport police were not worried with if someone had 1 drink or 3, or if someones skirt is too high or whatever, they should just focus on security.

hey, lets stop serving booze in the airport seeing as it CAN make people well, freak out.

if this woman was not on her way to rehab, to better herself, i feel in my gut that she would be getting more respect from people. people would be calling out against this treatment.
but, since she was 'a drunk', she must have started the trouble cause she was drunk right.....
couldn't possibly be that she was 1 minute late and they wouldn't let her on and she was upset....can't be that simple right....

now we have valium in the equation........

edit* something else lame.

can't show up to the gate drunk(not saying she way), but once the plane gets in the air, the flight attendants will be all to happy to bring your nips to you at $3 a bottle and you can get sauced in the air.....yay



[edit on 11-10-2007 by Boondock78]

Originally posted by Boondock78
couldn't possibly be that she was 1 minute late and they wouldn't let her on and she was upset....can't be that simple right....

now we have valium in the equation........

edit* something else lame.

Two points…
A) She was late. Be it an hour or a minute.
B) She was not acting correctly for whatever reason.

Either or both of these things alone can get you left off boarding an aircraft, period. Again flying is not your right, it is a contract between you and a private company which they can rescind if they feel the need to do for any reason what-so-ever. The proper way to handle that situation is civilly, in court if need be, but not to run through an airport screaming that you “are not a terrorist”. Those type of actions, in an airport, will get you arrested, what is unclear about this to you?
I supposed that you are the type of guy who thinks yelling fire in a crowded theater is exercising your right of free speech as well, despite the fact that its well documented to be illegal.

Originally posted by Boondock78
can't show up to the gate drunk(not saying she way), but once the plane gets in the air, the flight attendants will be all to happy to bring your nips to you at $3 a bottle and you can get sauced in the air.....yay

Which it is the flight attendants job to monitor how much of it you consume. If you notice they are served very slowly and in very small quantities. The certainly don’t hand you a 5th of it, or bring you a six pack to your seat.

reply to post by defcon5


thanks for the lesson and all, but i think in general, people would do a fair bit better if it was not all cut and dry and if everyone did not look at themselves as the enforcers...
i didn't see her running around the airport...i saw her standing still, yelling.


"she was late, be it a minute or an hour"
yeah, my ass.......any one of us would be none to happy if we had to catch a flight and they told us they would not board us cause we were a minute late.....you telling m you'd be like "oh well, the rules are the rules...i'll catch another flight"...
i don't think so.


fact is, it was not an hour it was a minute....
i guess it depends on how you look at it.
this lady bought her ticket and was 1 minute late...

a little civility, maybe the lady at the gate can uhhh, i unno, talk to her like a human....let her walk the tarmac even though it was a whole minute late.





funny enough, i have to leave in about an hour to take my bro in law to the airport in cleveland.....i'm not even getting out of the car...no inside of th airports for me

Originally posted by defcon5
Which it is the flight attendants job to monitor how much of it you consume. If you notice they are served very slowly and in very small quantities. The certainly don’t hand you a 5th of it, or bring you a six pack to your seat.

apparently it is also their job to monitor if a girls skirt is too short or if a mans shirt is offensive(that was on the news yesterday)..

so the flight attendant monitors them by bringing drinks slowly.

but what if they are taking valium? does the flight attendant know that?
what if they go to the bathrom and snort a couple v's and then come back and slam a couple nips...
now you're gonna have a problem, IN THE AIR eh?

but, we should feel safe cause the flight attendants monitor those things..

what a joke.

i'm suposed to believe that in 45 minutes, this lady got so sauced that she was a problem?
cause i don't.
if i was a betting man i would think the odds are more likely that this lady came to the desk a whole 1 minute late and the queen of the check in desk met her with attitude about being late and that is what started the whole fiasco.

just a hunch

Originally posted by Boondock78

"she was late, be it a minute or an hour"
yeah, my ass.......any one of us would be none to happy if we had to catch a flight and they told us they would not board us cause we were a minute late.....you telling m you'd be like "oh well, the rules are the rules...i'll catch another flight"...
i don't think so.

I am guessing that you have never worked for an airline.
I have, and yes, minutes cost money, they cost on-time averages, you name it. If she showed up a minute late, that means a minute after the plane was loaded, after the boarding call was finished and the alternate seating given out for those who did not show up. This is why you are told to be at the gate prior to boarding call. If your seat is given up due to you showing up after they have boarded someone else in that seat, you should have been there before boarding call, not 1 minute after departure time. Chances are though that was not the problem, its looks more like she was denied boarding do to her behavior.

Go work for an airline before you try and lecture me on how they operate.

Originally posted by Boondock78
apparently it is also their job to monitor if a girls skirt is too short or if a mans shirt is offensive(that was on the news yesterday)..

If it’s inappropriate and they feel its offensive to another paying customer who is not acting offensive, you bet. It’s a business, obviously you have no idea how to manage or run a professional business that is used by other professional business people.

Its not your right to interfere with other customers, their rights, or the right of a private company to have some say on how they want their business to run, and what they feel is appropriate behavior in that business.

Originally posted by defcon5

If it’s inappropriate and they feel its offensive to another paying customer who is not acting offensive, you bet. It’s a business, obviously you have no idea how to manage or run a professional business that is used by other professional business people.

no, i have never worked for an airline.
thta makes little difference imo.
we are talking about 1 minute here. a little customer service goes a long way.

'if it's inappropriate and they think it is offensive'...
does it say that in the patriot act?


so they can kick me off for my tattoo's if someone gets offended?

on my right arm, i have 'the meek shall inherit nothing'....so if i sit next to some fundie and she decides that it is offensive, the airport staff can boot me off?
again, i don't think so.

these people are power tripping and 'trying' to police everything and it's not cool.

all this 'airport security' crap is getting out of hand.

you go with your gut, i will go with mine.

Rather then listen to your speculation of how things should be, lets look at how things really are…

I chose two airlines at random, so you can see these terms and conditions are roughly the same if your flying on a major carrier or some local airline. These rules are normally printed on the sleeve of the ticket and the sleeve of the boarding pass.

Here is one from a commuter airlines:

ARTICLE 4. DENIED BOARDING
The airline shall deny transporting or deplane a passenger and his/her luggage for security reasons at any point of boarding or connection applying reasonable criteria; passenger will not have the right of reimbursement of paid fare if one of the following occurs:
I. By government disposition or according to laws – If a passenger does not follow laws, regulations or applicable government dispositions or any prohibition by a passenger’s check-in or boarding to the aircraft.
II. Check of passengers and their belongings – Any passenger that refuses to be checked or his/her belongings to seek for explosives, dangerous materials, smuggling, weapons or dangerous articles.
III. Passenger’s identification – Any passenger who refuses to identify him or herself.
IV. Special medical requirements – The airline can deny transportation to persons who requires service or special medical equipment which may not be authorized or may not be accommodated into the aircraft, such as medical oxygen to be used on board, incubator, electric medical appliances o persons that have to travel in stretcher.
V. Handicapped – Handicapped passengers may be accepted to fly in the airline’s itinerary flights with the approval of either the station manager or supervisor and will be subject to the following conditions:
a. That flying does not put in danger their security, other passengers, the aircraft or its crew.
b. If only their physic and mental condition does not allow them to help themselves during the flight must travel with a companion.
c. In order to fulfill with Aeronautic security regulation passengers that can not travel with the SEAT in upright position during take-off and landing might be accepted as a passenger in stretcher complying with all requirements for its transportation.
d. Seats located in emergency exits should not be assigned to this passengers because in a contingency, it is required a rapid evacuation of this area.
VI. Safety and comfort – The airline shall deny transporting or deplane a passenger who fits the following categories and represents a hazard and/or causes disgust to other passengers:
a. Persons who by their conduct are aggressive, offensive, threatening, intimidating or violent or their outfit is lascivious, lustful, obscene or partially offensive.
b. Persons bear feet, unless it is by medical prescription or handicapped.
c. Persons who are voluminous, extremely tall or due to their physical condition cannot seat or buckle and that there is no way to be fixed to the aircraft seat. For this type of passengers, a special service can be provided and will be coordinated by airport staff.
d. Persons that their personal hygiene and cleanness may cause harm, annoyance, or discomfort to other passengers.
e. Persons who are visibly inebriated, intoxicated or under the influence of drugs.
f. Persons with skin illness that is contagious, that is a focus of infection or has a repulsive aspect.
g. Sick persons who do not present a medical certificate.
h. Persons who do not comply with migratory, sanitary or customs requirements, these might be established by either origin or destination country.

This is one from a major carrier:

REFUSAL TO TRANSPORT
Delta may refuse to transport any passenger, and may remove any passenger from its aircraft at any time, for any of the following reasons:
A) Government Request or Regulations
Whenever such action is necessary to comply with any government regulations, directives, or instructions; or to comply with any governmental request for emergency transportation in connection with the national defense, or whenever such action is necessary or advisable by
reason of weather or other conditions beyond its control (including but without limitation, acts of God, force majeure, strikes, civil commotions, embargoes, wars, hostilities, or disturbances) actual, threatened, or reported.
B)Search of Passenger or Property
When a passenger refuses to permit search of his person or property for explosives, weapons, dangerous materials, or other prohibited items.
C) Proof of Identity
When a passenger refuses on request to produce positive identification; provided, however, that Delta shall have no obligation to require positive identification of persons purchasing tickets and/or presenting tickets for the purpose of boarding aircraft.
D). Travel Across International Boundaries
When a passenger is traveling across any international boundary if:
1) the travel documents of such passenger are not in order; or
2) such transportation would be unlawful
E)Failure to Comply with Delta’s Rules or Contract of Carriage
Delta Domestic General Rules Tariff Page 11 of 57 When a passenger fails or refuses to comply with any of Delta’s rules or regulations or any term of the contract of carriage.
F) Passenger’s Conduct or Condition
Delta will not refuse to provide transportation to an individual with a disability, as defined in 14 C.F.R. § 382.5 and 382.31, based upon his or her disability, except as provided in Rule 35(G), below. Delta will not refuse to provide transportation based upon race, color, national origin, religion, sex, or ancestry. Subject to those qualifications, Delta may refuse to transport any passenger, or may remove any passenger from its aircraft, when refusal to transport or removal of the passenger is reasonably necessary in Delta’s sole discretion for the passenger’s comfort or safety, for the comfort or safety of other passengers or Delta Employees, or for the prevention of damage to the property of Delta or its passengers or employees. By way of example, and without limitation, Delta may refuse to transport or may remove passengers from its aircraft in any of the following situations:
1) When the passenger’s conduct is disorderly, abusive or violent.
2) When the passenger is barefoot.
3) When the passenger appears to be intoxicated or under the influence of drugs.
4) When the passenger attempts to interfere with any member of the flight crew in the pursuit of his or her duties, or fails to obey the instruction of any member of the flight crew.
5) When the passenger has a contagious disease that may be transmissible to other passengers during the normal course of the flight;
6) When the passenger has a malodorous condition;
7) When the passenger is unable to sit in a seat with the seatbelt fastened;
8) When the passenger requires an onboard stretcher kit;
9) When the passenger’s behavior may be hazardous to himself/herself, the crew, or other passengers;
10) When the passenger is seriously ill, and fails to provide a physician's written permission to fly.
11) When the passenger is traveling in an incubator.
12) When the passenger’s conduct creates an unreasonable risk of offense or annoyance to other passengers.
13) When the passenger’s conduct creates a risk of harm or damage to the carrier’s aircraft and/or property, or the property of other passengers.
G) Carriage of Passengers With Disabilities
Delta will not refuse to provide transportation to an individual with a disability, as defined in 14 C.F.R. § 382.5, based upon his or her disability, except in the following circumstances:
1. Safety
Delta may refuse to provide transportation to any passenger on the basis of safety, and may refuse to provide transportation to any passenger whose carriage would violate the Federal Aviation Regulations.

[snip] for size limits[snip]

H) Recourse of Passenger
All passengers are prohibited from engaging in any conduct that would authorize Delta to refuse transport under this Rule. The sole recourse of any passenger refused carriage or removed en route for any reason specified in this Rule shall be recovery of the refund value of the unused portion of his or her ticket as provided in Rule 260.

So, that is how things really are.
Anymore questions?

[edit on 10/12/2007 by defcon5]

reply to post by defcon5


well, that was fantastic and all.
thing is, i don't dig how things 'really are'..
i think things really need to change and then crap like this could be avoided.

do you have any questions?

Originally posted by Boondock78
thing is, i don't dig how things 'really are'..
i think things really need to change and then crap like this could be avoided.

Well I certainly don’t agree with you, and I doubt that most folks do.
The last ting that anyone wants is to pay a bunch of money to travel and have to deal with folks acting up around them in a contained space for 2 or 3 hours. I guess in your world, as a passenger, I should be subjected to people who are drunk, sick, acting up, dressing inappropriately, or putting others in danger?

Wow, why don’t you go start an airlines and see how many customers you get?

I found some information new to this thread that may be interesting to debate.
This information has been online and on calbe news in the last day or so.

www.cnn.com...

www.cnn.com...

Noah Gotbaum told a Phoenix airport operator that his wife was distraught after being bumped from a flight and that her situation was a "medical emergency," not a case of "some lout who's just drank too much."
.......
According to the police report released Thursday, Gotbaum's husband, Noah, called the airport several times that day, trying to reach his wife or the airport police, telling them they didn't know the circumstances involving his wife, whom he described as suicidal.

and then this gem,
Gotbaum
Dead 2 Hours Before Husband Was Told
New Records Show Delay After Airport Death

Sky Harbor International Airport officials on Thursday released audio recordings of three telephone calls that Noah Gotbaum made to airport communications center on the afternoon last month on which his wife was found dead in an airport holding room.
.......
Noah Gotbaum called the airport's communications center on Sept. 28 at 4:39 p.m., 5:27 p.m. and 6:01 p.m., according to the recordings.

While Gotbaum is on hold during the first call, an officer tells the airport dispatcher that he needs to find "somebody who's professional" to break the news to Gotbaum.

In the later calls, Gotbaum's voice becomes more urgent and irritated and he tells the dispatcher that his wife is "suicidal" and has problems with alcohol and depression.

and the police rebutal
www.azcentral.com...

[edit on 13-10-2007 by DontTreadOnMe]

Originally posted by defcon5

Well I certainly don’t agree with you, and I doubt that most folks do.
The last ting that anyone wants is to pay a bunch of money to travel and have to deal with folks acting up around them in a contained space for 2 or 3 hours. I guess in your world, as a passenger, I should be subjected to people who are drunk, sick, acting up, dressing inappropriately, or putting others in danger?

Wow, why don’t you go start an airlines and see how many customers you get?

first, i really don't care if you or anyone else agrees with me...just to get that out of the way. my feelings/opinions are just as valid as yours..

see, the last thing i want is to pay a bunch of money for a flight and then get snubbed if i am 1 minute late.

who mentioned people being sick and acting up?

sa far as dressing inappropriately, i don't think it is up to you or the airline to decide what that is..THAT is my point.
i mean, who gets to decide what is inappropriate?

if i wear my sketti monster shirt and that offends some fundie, you think i should be able to be booted off the plane? i spent the same dollars for my ticket.
as far as the drunkenness goes, maybe to solve or put a dent in this problem, they could stop serving booze in the airport and on the plane..
hows that?
why should i have to pay good money for a flight and then have to sit next to someone whi is drinking nips the whole time?
i hate booze and view it as a poison. i don't want to be right next to someone that is sucking them down though...

a little courtesy...less of this policing everything from what people are wearing to how short the skirt is....

what is sick? if i have small cough should i not be allowed to travel?
allergies?

what exactly are you talking about?

for the record, i don't like paying money and then having to walk through metal detectors and have my luggage tossed only to sit next to same jerk that is sucking down nips of crown...
so, the way i solve it is i don't fly.

i sure do like to debate this though

reply to post by DontTreadOnMe


thanks for those links...
very interesting.

the husband said this

If the airline or the police authorities had treated Carol with some modicum of sensitivity and grace or one single person at that airport had put an arm around her shoulder, sat her down and given her some protection, she might still be with us today."

^^^^and i have to agree with this...
people just don't want to listen and are to fast to 'police' everything...

she was yelling so she MUST be blah blah blah....no need to even bother to find out


and the cops

The life-saving efforts of the police officers involved clearly demonstrated their concern for Ms. Gotbaum.

^^^^^


mod edit, ex quote code

[edit on 13-10-2007 by DontTreadOnMe]

Originally posted by Boondock78
for the record, i don't like paying money and then having to walk through metal detectors and have my luggage tossed only to sit next to same jerk that is sucking down nips of crown...
so, the way i solve it is i don't fly.

i sure do like to debate this though

So what do you think of the fact that the same rules apply on other countries airlines such as British Air or Air Canada?
Here:

AirCanada
Additionally, you must be available for boarding at the boarding gate by the deadline shown below. Failure to meet this deadline may result in the loss of your assigned seat or the cancellation of your reservation
Destination: Within Canada
Recommended Check-in time: 60 Minutes
Check-In Deadline: 30 Minutes
Boarding Gate Deadline: 20 Minutes

So even foreign carriers have a “be at the gate by this time” limit at which time they have to start giving away the unaccounted for seats. See here is the bit your not understanding, it cost an airlines money to fly with empty seats, and it costs money for them to leave even just a minute late. A person showing up a minute after the jetway pulls takes a lot longer to take care of then a minute anyway.

They have to re-apply the breaks and caulks.
Re-attach the jetway bridge.
Disable the door chute mechanism.
Open the door.
Then they have to remove the person who is in the seat.
Remove the person’s baggage, which must first be located in the lower hold.
Put the new person on the aircraft.
Put her baggage on the plane.
Reseal all the doors.
Reset the chute.
Remove all the caulks.
Reset the breaks.
Pull the jetway again.

If the aircraft has an INOP APU then you also have to:
Shut down The engine
Reapply ground power
Re-apply the A/C unit
Allow the Airstart cart time to cool down before trying to start up again.

Not quite as simple as you would like to pretend that it is, now is it?

Originally posted by Boondock78
the husband said this

If the airline or the police authorities had treated Carol with some modicum of sensitivity and grace or one single person at that airport had put an arm around her shoulder, sat her down and given her some protection, she might still be with us today."

The TSA’s tried to get her to calm down before the police arrived, that obviously was not going to diffuse the situation.