How Do We Know That THe Bible, Old Testiment, And The Torah Are True?

reply to post by semperfortis

And here is another interesting read...

American Thinker

Now "IF" one reads this with an open mind, it will raise questions that perhaps demand answers, but are not forthcoming in science..

Thank you for that link.....terrific site.



........Whirlwind

Originally posted by Skunky
But that doesn't mean it is evidence for the existence of God, the true identity of Jesus Christ (if indeed he existed at all), or any other supernatural creationist claims therein.

You could replace the word 'Bible' with 'Aesop's fables'.

[edit on 28-9-2007 by Skunky]

Some things in the bible like its theology or claims of supernatural events cannot be scientifically proven. As far as Jesus is concerned, it might be possible to scientifically that he existed based on archaeological evidence or historical records outside the bible. Even if Jesus of Nazareth was a fictitious character, there is a wealth of evidence outside the Christian Bible suggesting that there were several religous figures like Jesus who lived in the Roman province of Judea at the time Jesus purportedly lived. The same can be said of virtually any other biblical figure like Moses or Abraham. Even if they are fictitious they were undoubtedly based on real people.

Let us assume that 2000 years ago the only book from today's society that book is a work of fiction. One of the characters in the book is a woman named London Hyatt who is a ditzy blonde who seems to attract a large ammount of attention from this society's paparrazzi. There is another character named George Shrub who is the president of this society. He is ridiculed for being a poor speaker and an ineffectual leader. Another character in the book is a man named Mahmoud bin Laden. He lives in Iran and destroyed 3 buildings in Chicago. The book also describes an event that happens every Januar called the Super Cup which is a big sporting content involving men wearing helmets violently attacking eachother.

Even though the above paragraph contained nothing factually correct, you would quickly realize that the paragraph describes people and events that are similar to real people and events. You have to view the Bible through the same lens.

reply to post by wardk28


God Bless you. You are a true christian. I Did not mean any offense to you. And I dont ever mean to finger only christianity. Its just that it is the religion most everyone on this site is familiar with, and The major religion in america. I know what you mean by people looking down there noses at you, and that is exactly what I was reffering too. Peace be with you.

I began asking myself "Why am I here?" Is our life only to live and die? Is there more?
Perhaps the questioning of ones own existence, defines my actions...

A cause and effect type of thing? Becoming aware that your life and choices you make will effect your afterlife. Not only that but the way you live your life effects those around you, you seem to lead by example, or try too this is awesome IMHO and rare.

There was nothing wrong with what I "did"... It was what led me to where I am now...
My life is more fulfilling now.. I still get "into" some of the exciting stuff, but I am more about the "Investigation" side now and not the "First Responder" and of course there is nothing that compares to the experience in the Marines...

I understand what you are saying.

YES.. I still "hang out" with "Sinners"... Can't NOT do that.. WE ARE ALL SINNERS....

I stand corrected

I am sure you meant with Non-Believers though so I will address that.. OF COURSE...
What if through my life and my actions, I can change ONE other life and help them come to believe.. HOW COOL WOULD THAT BE!!!!!!

I have started several threads about religion, and have participated in several others. In all the posts both for and against, what you state here is by far the most relevant. Again Leading by Example, setting the tone, taking personal responsibility to be a Good Christian in a world where in my opinion there are few, yes there are many good ones on Sunday morning but the next day it seems to fade. Religions history is Not Good by any stretch of the imagination, and someday it will be held accountable.

People like to throw scripture at you and come off self-righteous, this is easy to argue against its even easier to win a argument against this type of self justification. Just keep it simple, the basics if you will.

In this thread I have not seen you come off as judgmental or overly critical of those that do not believe, and this is so refreshing.

The truth I had no idea you were Christian before I saw your posts here. Usually its Very Easy to tell.



[edit on 29-9-2007 by LDragonFire]

reply to post by coryblood


We know the Bible is true by the hundreds of fulfilled prophecies contained in it.


To 100& accuracy.


Check it out.

Originally posted by Old Man
reply to post by coryblood

 

We know the Bible is true by the hundreds of fulfilled prophecies contained in it.


To 100& accuracy.


Check it out.

But then it also states we have free will, however in the old testament when people choose not to believe they were killed for it. free will huh? Sodom and Gamora, the great flood.

Also it says that God is Good yet see the above statement, the God of the old testament is not good, I see why gnostic beliefs are around, Yet Jesus in the New Testament is all good.

And what prophecies are you referring to?

Originally posted by LDragonFire

Originally posted by Old Man
reply to post by coryblood

 

We know the Bible is true by the hundreds of fulfilled prophecies contained in it.


To 100& accuracy.


Check it out.

But then it also states we have free will, however in the old testament when people choose not to believe they were killed for it. free will huh? Sodom and Gamora, the great flood.

Also it says that God is Good yet see the above statement, the God of the old testament is not good, I see why gnostic beliefs are around, Yet Jesus in the New Testament is all good.

And what prophecies are you referring to?

Oh, dear....

Don't you realise that there are too many to mention?

For a start, there are all the hundreds of Old Testament prophecies which related to the coming of the Messiah.....which were fulfilled TO THE LETTER.

There are also many prophecies relating specifically to the 'end-times'...

Take the 'mark of the beast', for example.....which people are now talking about worldwide, as they see the advent of such a prophecy being fulfilled before their very eyes.

Then there is Daniel, who prophecied a vast increase of knowledge just before the end times, and the increase in world travel.

'Many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be greatly increased'

There are too many to name. So many, in fact, that anybody who refuses to look into these things is guilty of bringing blindness upon themselves. They are, themselves, to blame, since the information is all there, for all to see.

But, of course, people would rather seek 'other' truths........benevolent aliens, occultism and spirituality, Godless humanism and atheism, reincarnation, parallel universes, evolution.......


(sigh).......does anybody get that 'deja vu' feeling......?

Originally posted by Old Man

Oh, dear....

Don't you realise that there are too many to mention?

For a start, there are all the hundreds of Old Testament prophecies which related to the coming of the Messiah.....which were fulfilled TO THE LETTER.

Incorrect sir, according to this thread Proof that Christianity's a false religion it clearly states that

1) Isaiah 45 and Zafanai 3 shows that when the messiah arrives the world will unite under pure monotheism! No time in Jesus's life time did this happen.

The father[1] the Son[2] the Holy Spirit[3] So much for the LETTER thing

There are also many prophecies relating specifically to the 'end-times'...

Take the 'mark of the beast', for example.....which people are now talking about worldwide, as they see the advent of such a prophecy being fulfilled before their very eyes.

Then there is Daniel, who prophecied a vast increase of knowledge just before the end times, and the increase in world travel.

'Many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be greatly increased'

You can't prove this is the End Times, people have been claiming we are living in the End times for hundreds of years, they were wrong.

Renaissance was another time of increase knowledge and travel yet it wasn't the end. The end hasn't occurred, yet you say prophecy is being fulfilled about the End time when you have no facts that this is the end time..

There are too many to name. So many, in fact, that anybody who refuses to look into these things is guilty of bringing blindness upon themselves. They are, themselves, to blame, since the information is all there, for all to see.

But, of course, people would rather seek 'other' truths........benevolent aliens, occultism and spirituality, Godless humanism and atheism, reincarnation, parallel universes, evolution.......

So far IMHO you are 0-2 and speaking of blindness. I do agree that the information is all there for us to see. Now if you would pick one prophecy that Can be proven, that would be a good start.

(sigh).......does anybody get that 'deja vu' feeling......?

yes I do

[edit on 29-9-2007 by LDragonFire]

reply to post by LDragonFire

But then it also states we have free will, however in the old testament when people choose not to believe they were killed for it. free will huh? Sodom and Gamora, the great flood.

The free will issue pertains to our souls. We make the choice on who we will follow, Satan or Father, in this life but the repercussions will be evident in the next, usually.....not always.

Those that lived in both Sodom and Gomorrah made their free will choice on how they would live and it was such an abomination to God that He destroyed them (He also has a free will choice). The same story is true with the flood of Noah.

The fallen angels had mixed with the "daughters of Adam" (Gen.6) and "there were giants in the earth in those days", because of that mixture. The result was "that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually". That was the reason for Noah's flood.

Also it says that God is Good yet see the above statement, the God of the old testament is not good, I see why gnostic beliefs are around, Yet Jesus in the New Testament is all good.

The God of the Old and New Testament is good. We humans make a mistake if we believe He is all fluffy, warm and loving all the time. He has given us everything and along with that there are a few very simple things He wants us to abide by in return. That is where the free will comes in. Will we use it to follow those few simple rules or not?

And what prophecies are you referring to?

There are many but I can give you two to consider. Please read Psalms 22 and Isaiah 53. Both tell us about the advent of Christ, written long before His birth.

Father tells us all things, even about what will happen in the end of days and many, including myself, believe that time is unfolding now.



.............Whirlwind

reply to post by LDragonFire


Blissful ignorance on your part, Dragonfire.

Well....keep up your charade.......you are entitled


Regarding the Father, Son and Holy Spirit....it is not a mystery, so much, to those who have experienced Him.

And to the end times..........There has NEVER been a time in human history when such prophecies have been ABLE to be fulfilled....until now.


You are living in the 'end-times'....whether you believe it or not.


All the signs point to it......even your own UFO/New Age/Higher Consciousness agenda.......whatever you want to call it.


I'd say.........make the right choice

Originally posted by Old Man

Blissful ignorance on your part, Dragonfire.

Well....keep up your charade.......you are entitled

and blissful arrogance on your part?
Seems to be a trend with evangelical Christians. (or anyone set in their doctrine and belief system...)

If the cup is full, nothing new can come in - but I know your response to that already.

Peace

dAlen

[edit on 29-9-2007 by dAlen]

reply to post by whirlwind

Originally posted by: whirlwind
The free will issue pertains to our souls. We make the choice on who we will follow, Satan or Father, in this life but the repercussions will be evident in the next, usually.....not always.

Those that lived in both Sodom and Gomorrah made their free will choice on how they would live and it was such an abomination to God that He destroyed them (He also has a free will choice). The same story is true with the flood of Noah.

Uh wasn't that what I just said? They made a choice and were killed for it. Your ok with this? Do you think people should be killed today for being non-believers or just for there sins?

The God of the Old and New Testament is good. We humans make a mistake if we believe He is all fluffy, warm and loving all the time. He has given us everything and along with that there are a few very simple things He wants us to abide by in return. That is where the free will comes in. Will we use it to follow those few simple rules or not?

Yes we choose him, or die, and thats Good?

There are many but I can give you two to consider. Please read Psalms 22 and Isaiah 53. Both tell us about the advent of Christ, written long before His birth.

Father tells us all things, even about what will happen in the end of days and many, including myself, believe that time is unfolding now.

ok if Christians believe they are living in the End times since the death and resurrection till now eventually they can say I told you so. Eventually they will be right., But for the last 2000 they have been wrong.

reply to post by dAlen


And peace to you to.


It will all come out in the wash, eh?

reply to post by Old Man


Im not the one that considers myself to be a sheep lead by a Shepard.

When you say New Age what do you mean?

food for thought:
Why do Christian and other Religious groups lie?
How far you are willing to go in regards to your religious beliefs?]
Is the belief in God, a primitive instinct?
Who are the Pharacees in our world?

reply to post by LDragonFire

Originally posted by Old Man
Oh, dear.... Don't you realise that there are too many to mention?
For a start, there are all the hundreds of Old Testament prophecies which related to the coming of the Messiah.....which were fulfilled TO THE LETTER.



Incorrect sir, according to this thread Proof that Christianity's a false religion it clearly states that


1) Isaiah 45 and Zafanai 3 shows that when the messiah arrives the world will unite under pure monotheism! No time in Jesus's life time did this happen.

You didn't read far enough into the answers for that poster. There are two advents of Christ. When he arrives at the second advent:

I have sworn by Myself, the word is gone out of My mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto Me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear. Isaiah 45:23

That happens when He returns. Sadly, every knee won't remain bowed.

The father[1] the Son[2] the Holy Spirit[3] So much for the LETTER thing

I don't understand what you mean???

There are also many prophecies relating specifically to the 'end-times'...

Take the 'mark of the beast', for example.....which people are now talking about worldwide, as they see the advent of such a prophecy being fulfilled before their very eyes.

Then there is Daniel, who prophecied a vast increase of knowledge just before the end times, and the increase in world travel.

'Many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be greatly increased'



You can't prove this is the End Times, people have been claiming we are living in the End times for hundreds of years, they were wrong.

Renaissance was another time of increase knowledge and travel yet it wasn't the end. The end hasn't occurred, yet you say prophecy is being fulfilled about the End time when you have no facts that this is the end time..

But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.' Daniel 12:4


Running "to and fro" means to apostize, to "turn aside with lies". Knowledge there means "calamities, or wickedness". So....the true meaning of the words makes us take a different look at that scripture.

In the time of the end many will be turning us aside with lies, apostasy, keeping us from hearing or learning about the truth of God's Words and the time will be filled with wickedness.

We must decide for ourself if we are in that time now but in making that decision we should factor in the other signs. My personal belief is that we are certainly living in the end of days.

There are too many to name. So many, in fact, that anybody who refuses to look into these things is guilty of bringing blindness upon themselves. They are, themselves, to blame, since the information is all there, for all to see.

But, of course, people would rather seek 'other' truths........benevolent aliens, occultism and spirituality, Godless humanism and atheism, reincarnation, parallel universes, evolution.......



So far IMHO you are 0-2 and speaking of blindness. I do agree that the information is all there for us to see. Now if you would pick one prophecy that Can be proven, that would be a good start.

Thus saith the Lord; "For three transgressions of Moab, and for four, I will not turn away the punishment thereof; because he burned the bones of the king of Edom into lime: Amos 2:11


Edom is Russia of today. In 1918 the Tsar Nicholas, Alexandra and their children were murdered and buried in lime. This was prophecied 687 years before Christ.



..............Whirlwind

reply to post by LDragonFire


I'd rather be a sheep, following a trustworthy and reliable shepherd, than thinking myself 'big enough' to strike out on my own.

This has been the downfall of people throughout the ages, IMO.

...'I can go it alone'....'I don't need anybody else'..... 'I am a self-made man'........


Good links, btw.....I have seen them before.

But the only determining factor, ultimately, will be revealed at the end of time.

When we die.

Personally, I would rather be in the hands of somebody who has trodden the path before us, and knows the way, rather than be so arrogant as to proclaim that my own mind is the 'be all and end all' of understanding.

And that all roads lead to God, or to 'understanding'.

There are a million different philosophies and belief systems out there.


Take your pick


Regards.

Stephen

reply to post by LDragonFire

Originally posted by: whirlwind
The free will issue pertains to our souls. We make the choice on who we will follow, Satan or Father, in this life but the repercussions will be evident in the next, usually.....not always.

Those that lived in both Sodom and Gomorrah made their free will choice on how they would live and it was such an abomination to God that He destroyed them (He also has a free will choice). The same story is true with the flood of Noah.



Uh wasn't that what I just said? They made a choice and were killed for it. Your ok with this? Do you think people should be killed today for being non-believers or just for there sins?

Yes, that is what you said but I tried to explain it a bit more.

Yes, they made a choice and were killed for it.

Yes, I am ok with that.

Yes, I think people today should be executed for truly heinous sins.

No, I do not believe anyone should be killed for non-belief. That is their choice.



If they decide (with their free will choice) that they will commit a crime such as murder or rape, knowing the penalty, then yes, they should be executed.

The God of the Old and New Testament is good. We humans make a mistake if we believe He is all fluffy, warm and loving all the time. He has given us everything and along with that there are a few very simple things He wants us to abide by in return. That is where the free will comes in. Will we use it to follow those few simple rules or not?



Yes we choose him, or die, and thats Good?

If you wish to have eternal life you must believe in the Son. He has already given you this life and you are free to live it as you wish. This age we live in now is one about spiritual choice. The next is about spiritual judgment........and yes, that is good.

There are many but I can give you two to consider. Please read Psalms 22 and Isaiah 53. Both tell us about the advent of Christ, written long before His birth.

Father tells us all things, even about what will happen in the end of days and many, including myself, believe that time is unfolding now.


ok if Christians believe they are living in the End times since the death and resurrection till now eventually they can say I told you so. Eventually they will be right., But for the last 2000 they have been wrong.

There are signs that Christ told us about that must happen before the end (some have but not all). Mark 13, Matthew 24 and Luke 21...the Olivet Prophecies. The end individually can happen to any of us on any given day and as such we must all be prepared. The end of days is different. This age will end but not the earth. We will go into the third age here on earth.

To not be prepared for that is a mistake and one that has been made before. The prophet Jeremiah warned his people that they would be taken captive but they didn't believe it. They were wrong.

This is as it is now. God is warning us that we will also be taken captive by the anti-christ when he comes to earth pretending to be Christ at the end of days. But, we as they, back in those days, don't believe it. We aren't being taught, are being misled, etc. He tells us it will happen and gives clues as to when but we, in our stubborness don't believe.


The signs are there and they began in 1948. As He said, it will happen in this generation. Biblical generations are 40, 70 and 120 years. We have passed the first marker and coming up on the second.


...........Whirlwind

reply to post by gravytrain


No offense taken brother. I just want to people to understand that just because we are Christians, doesn't mean we can't carry on a conversation without telling you to go to church. Thats like people telling me I need to quit smoking. I know its bad for me but I will quit when I am ready. Thanks for clearing it up and no offense but God Bless.

reply to post by Old Man


people have been getting smarter and having better transport since the begining of time so every day could be "The End" as you stated. do you see where i'm going with this?

reply to post by coryblood


Not really, since:

From the dawn of human existence until about a hundred years ago or so, the fastest that a man could travel was on horseback.


Consider it: all the centuries before then...hundreds of years....

Now, just this past century or so.....we travel beyond the speed of sound.



Also:

The knowledge base of mankind has increased MORE in this last 50 years, than the whole of what has been attained since man was found upon the earth.


These are official figures.


Go figure