How Do We Know That THe Bible, Old Testiment, And The Torah Are True?

My "proof" lies in the changes in my life...

I know that you have all heard this before, but I was truly the ultimate believer in my own power, strength and independence...

My past is one full of ME doing this and ME doing that. I have survived being shot, stabbed (More than once), numerous concussions, a skydiving accident, combat twice..... on and on and on...College graduate, logical thinker and doubter of all I could not see...

I truly thought I was on top of the world and indestructible.

I then found the truth and my life changed...

The truth that I found worked through my life and changed me in so many ways I am not able to list them all here. Suffice it to say, I know what my life is all about now. I know why I am here, I know where I am going...
I know why everything works and I am excited and thrilled about what I know is next...

All of this and more I owe to having Jesus as my personal savior and the Holy Spirit enter into my life.

I have been exactly like most of you that do not believe in God, and I am here for you if you have any questions....

PLEASE U2U me if you want to know more..

Semper

That's wonderful. I am not trying to patronise you.

In what way does your life experience (and of people who have similar experiences and draw similar conclusions) prove that God exists or support the historical accuracy of the Bible?

"But Darwinism is no more than a theory, as yet unconfirmed by evidence, in its explanation for the origins of life."

From Semperfortis' American Thinker article

Of those three opening statement, only one is true and that is only a technicality.

(1) Darwinian theory does not deal with the origin of life... it deals with how life adapts to changing conditions.

(2) The theory of evolution is one of the throughly vetted scientific theories ever, and still it stands. Some details have been tweeked over time but the fundamental theory still holds. The evidence of evolution is all around us. Perhaps that is why so many people cannot see it.

(3) To say that it is no more than a theory is only technically correct. In the scientific community there is hypothesis, which is the first stage of an idea or study. Then there is thesis in which a series of tests is applied to test the hypothesis. After and only after a long thesis period in which it is not only tested, but it is subjected to peer review can it be called a theory. A theory is about as close as most scientific studies ever get to being called a law, as in the law of gravity, but it is still very far from being as the author suggested as "no more than a theory".

Personally when I start reading an article and find so many questionable or inaccurate statements in the opening paragraphs I find it hard to take the rest of it seriously.

*********

As for matters of faith vs science: In the long run matters spiritual have a totally different standard of proof than scientific ones and in all reality to equate the two simply does not work.

Science deals with the nuts and bolts of the material world. Spiritual matters are not, nor can be, nor should be its preserve.

Religion and spirituality deal with material existence in a metaphoric or mythic or symbolic nature which is a beast of an entirely different color. As for all else, moral and metaphysical, which is the real preserve of faith, its standard of proof is written on the human heart.

In the long run I think that it is a profound mistake to try and use either to prove or disprove the other.


[edit on 28-9-2007 by grover]

reply to post by Skunky


I can only answer as to my experiences and my life, but I will do that...

My belief in the existence of The Lord is one of observation... Remember what "Sherlock Holmes" said? "If you dismiss all that is impossible, whatever is left, no matter how improbable, must be the answer"

Now granted a fictional character, the quotation stands on it's own at least for me...

Most here know what I do for a living, at least in a general aspect. I deal in logic all day and every day. I like to think I make a difference in some persons life every so often, in doing what I do. So I am not some "Mush" minded individual that falls for the first preacher that comes along with a good story. As I stated before, I have lived a wonderfully exciting life. full of adventure and I have traveled all over the world.
Apparently, without my knowledge, I was being led to the point I am at now. A Believer...

I believe because I see. I see the wonderful "Simplistic Complexity" of all life and all creation. To imagine this was all some cosmic accident, seems to me to be a MUCH bigger stretch than to believe in a creator.

I believe because there is no good explanation for how sight evolved in a sightless world..

I believe because evolution can not explain how blood came to clot...

I believe because the "Missing Link" is still missing...

I believe because according to Darwin, all life emanates from "More Simple" life, and that does not make sense considering the existence of DNA and RNA is directly against this principle...

I believe because so many argue against what I believe and the Bible is clear in it's assertion that this will all happen..

I believe because I can see the truth in the Bible and how it impacts my life and effects me..

I am sad that so many don't believe and therefor can not have my peace and certainty as to my future, that their life is all they have to look forward to as to what they believe.
I am sad that ALL will come to believe and for many it will be too late..

But for me, it is easy to believe and in many ways, my job and my training makes it even easier.. Logic

I have always kept my beliefs fairly quiet here on ATS, as I know there are many nonbelievers and I did not want the controversy. But of late there have been some interesting threads in religion and in an attempt to escape some of the more radically ridiculous threads, I began posting in the "religious" threads.
I am glad I have been able to express my beliefs here without "too" much controversy...

This is nothing new to me, I have been a believer for some few years now. Perhaps not as long as some that were raised in a religious family, but for me it happened right in the middle of my career and really could not have come at a more opportune time...

Thanks for asking

NOTE:
I will NOT defend my beliefs here against any ATTACKS... This is not my politics, my job or my OPINION on any subject...
If you do not believe, that is your business and your soul as it the fact that I do and it is my soul. If you want to know about my belief, like the poster i quoted, I will gladly answer you and tell you my experiences and feelings in regards to my life...


Semper

Grover,

If you would please post your qualifications that have enabled you to factually make the statements you have dismissing the article...

As you can see, the article is full of links that support the author and his qualifications to make the statements he did. All I see in your post is your OPINION, yet you state it as if we are to accept it as fact...

If it is your opinion, please say so, if not, I again await your qualifications that are as clear as the author of the link I posted...

Thank you

Semper

Originally posted by grover
Personally when I start reading an article and find so many questionable or inaccurate statements in the opening paragraphs I find it hard to take the rest of it seriously.

Aye, the rest is also a load of piffle. This is quite funny:

Furthermore, we don`t even see crossovers between the 5 Phylla (classes of animals) anywhere, at any time. Where are the giant mammaried mosquitos? Where are the snakes which deliver live young? I haven`t seen too many feathered fish around lately!

What a dufus! Never mind the pathetic level of evolutionary understanding, but some snakes do give birth to live young.

He must try harder though, I nearly got a line...




[edit on 28-9-2007 by melatonin]

OK. Both your arguments may seem valid to you but are easily countered. Supernatural claims (not just religious ones) are not exclusive in the sense that they are exempt from evidence-based study, experimental testing and objective reasoning. If they are true, they deserve more thorough investigation and 'proof' the likes of which only scientific research can begin to map out.

The idea that something as intricate as eyesight proves 'intelligent design' over Darwinian evolution is a common fallacy. There is plenty of evidence of different complexities and mechanisms of biological eyesight in all kinds of living things.

I believe because I can see the truth in the Bible and how it impacts my life and effects me..

- This is faith. Not proof.

Some random snippets of current research:
www.futurepundit.com...
media.www.californiaaggie.com... t.Development-2134752.shtml

richarddawkins.net...



[edit on 28-9-2007 by Skunky]

There is one thing I think a lot of people forget. It takes faith to believe anything even history. You are putting your faith into someone's teachings, writings, and documents as an absolute truth. Many times history events are changed because of later findings. Unless you can physical witness an event, then it is going to take some amount of faith to accept it as fact. Many people on this site seem to think only Bush administration lies but all humans lie.

reply to post by wardk28


No - it takes evidence. The further back in history you choose to look, the more questionable some of the evidence may be. It is evidence alone though that helps us build an accurate picture of the world. Reviewing that evidence and re-assessing the conclusions drawn from it is essential. That's what science does.

Originally posted by coryblood
How Do We Know That THe Bible, Old Testiment, And The Torah Are True?

they are 'true & actual' to those who chose to adopt that world-view.

the 'believers', 'faithful', are inspired or led to immerse their life & character into that imagined world of Faith & religion...

they opted to step outside the crude & rude world of mother nature
and immerse their selfs in the ~higher~ moral & virtuious world that
is espoused by the OT, Torah, Bible.


but, a world devoid of this higher character & social interaction paradigm
(religious beliefs)
would put us all in a savage, law of the jungle, kind of world,


If the belief in religious ideas never developed (whether true or not)
society & culture would never have evolved
we would have remained animals & beasts.

reply to post by semperfortis


Once again you dismiss what I have to say by writing it off as my opinion as if it doesn't matter if you say that and it is really beginning to piss me off.

If you are so open minded look it up yourself.

This is faith. Not proof.

Not true...

The proof is my life

Let's be clear here, YOU asked me... I am not trying to convince you, or anyone else on here...

If you choose to believe in Darwin, Buddha, Christianity, nothingness, or the Easter Bunny, that is your choice. That is what you believe.

There are valid arguments on both sides, one makes perfect sense to me, the others do not; you asked me why I believed and I told you that my life was changed, DRAMATICALLY in fact...

I can not take you to the places I have traveled, allow you to see what I have seen or experience what I have, therefor I can not make you believe. Nor would I...

The very foundation of Christianity is based on free will. You must come freely, of your own will, or you simply do not believe and must live your life in that fashion...

Semper

Grover,

I am sorry you are getting upset enough to curse, but the simple fact is..

Your opinion is not fact, it is your opinion...

You are perfectly entitled to your opinion, here and everywhere else in this Great Country, just don't expect me to take it as factual, or evidentiary conclusion without supporting evidence..

Opinion
1. a belief or judgment that rests on grounds insufficient to produce complete certainty.
2. a personal view, attitude, or appraisal.

Fact
1. something that actually exists; reality; truth:
2. something known to exist or to have happened:

Dictionary.com

Semper

Originally posted by semperfortis
Grover,

If you would please post your qualifications that have enabled you to factually make the statements you have dismissing the article...

....

Qualifications aren't really that important. Someone can have a PhD and still be a lying poophead (e.g., Jonathan Wells). As far as I can tell, this dude is property manager, so I don't know why you are asking for such info of grover.

I'm sure my 13 year old son could pull apart this article. Lets just take one section.

Consider the Permian Triassic Extinction, the so called "Great Dying", 250 million years ago,in which 9 out of 10 marine creatures and 7 out of 10 land creatures died. Before the Great Dying five phylla walked the Earth; insects, mammals, birds, fish, and reptiles. After the Great Dying we had the same 5.

If you bothered to spend the time to educate yourself on this, you would know that:

1. There are more than 5 phyla. Dozens actually.

2. Insects, mammals, birds, fish, reptiles are not phyla. Indeed, four of them belong to one phylum - chordata. I'll let you figure out which.

3. During the permian, birds and mammals never existed.

4. During much of the triassic, birds and mammals never existed.

5. This guy doesn't know what the hell he is talking about.

My qualifications? Many. But that is not important. Just do a bit of research and you'll see that I am correct, and he is a dufus who should really stick to managing property if he doesn't want to look a fool.

I could do the same with much of the rest, but I have better things to do.

[edit on 28-9-2007 by melatonin]

Originally posted by semperfortis

This is faith. Not proof.

If you choose to believe in Darwin, Buddha, Christianity, nothingness, or the Easter Bunny, that is your choice. That is what you believe.

There are valid arguments on both sides, one makes perfect sense to me, the others do not;

There are not valid arguments on both sides. That is the problem with blind faith. This is why any supernatural claims must come under scientific scrutiny, as should all scientific claims. You are making the same presumption all religious people make, that belief is enough and subjective life experience is proof. It is not.

I do not worry wether you are trying to convince me or not. We are having, or trying to have, a reasonably objective argument about the accuracy of religious texts, which in turn leads to the validity of supernatural claims themselves, including the existence of God. There is no 100% proof God exists or does not exist, but we must work with what we can observe and experiment, making reasonable judgements and testing them further. There's more compelling evidence for Darwinian evolution than there is for creationism.



[edit on 28-9-2007 by Skunky]

You will find as you post with me my friend, that I research EVERYTHING...

The simple fact is this...

For every one article you post supporting evolution, I can post one supporting creationism...

The link was there to support my opinion, and I clearly stated it as such...

We can go at the "post link after link" all day and never convince either one of us....Now THAT is a FACT

It has been my experience that when ever ANYONE posts, not an opinion, but a post meant to discredit or dismiss a research link, one better be able to back it up with fact, links or other evidence garnered from somewhere other than the persons personal experience. UNLESS that poster clearly states it is their OPINION

This is all relative to posting style and NOT relevant to the OP, so this is my last comment on this...

I will clearly state again... I WILL NOT DEFEND MY BELIEF to those that do not believe and wish only a podium on which to espouse their opposition to my belief...

If you do not believe in God, again I say, that is YOUR decision. You must live with that and not me...

Semper

Originally posted by semperfortis
You will find as you post with me my friend, that I research EVERYTHING...

It appears otherwise. Maybe you should go and do some research and find out whether this guy is talking from his @ss.

With the best will in the world to you, you cannot attempt to close this discussion by inferring your beliefs are accurate and mine less so. You are right that we could exchange links to other people's research and claims all day, and I do not wish to do so. I do wish to tackle your beliefs sensibly. How deeply committed you are to them is your personal faith. I am not a scientist, but if I were to challenge claims made by evolutionary theorists, they would back them with objective experimental evidence and field study. I choose evolution over creatonism purley because of the evidence to support it. I accept the claims made by scientists because they must apply rigorous thought and study to them and back them with evidence all the time. Religious claims are excused that rigour and that is wrong. It affects the debate from harmless friendly (I hope) debates such as this to the global conflict between science and reason, and supernatural beliefs and claims.

reply to post by Skunky


GREAT POST

Now here are some references..

Historical Proof of the Bible

Major Proof of the Bible

By Ernest L. Martin Ph.D., 1975
Edited by David Sielaff, May 2002

Bible Prophecy

In these links you will find some interesting material... I have read The Origin of Species and of course have been taught Evolution all through my education, if you visit and read some of these links, you will see some interesting at least and possible convincing evidence of what I am saying...

Semper

reply to post by melatonin


Do you really think I have based my entire belief system or this discussion on the references from one source?

If that is what you garnered from my post, I apologize for the inconvenience and misconceptions...

But that was quite a leap...

And apparently we have no common ground..

Semper