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Allah is NOT Some Pagan Moon God
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Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth
What is this another hit piece against pagans? By, no less, a member of a religion that has went around causing wars on top of wars. Islam, Christianity and Judaism, all three, have a much too horrendous history to rightly criticize any belief system.. Before you ask, NO, I'm not a pagan.. I just find it amusing that people from a religion that has caused little more than turmoil, find it incumbent upon themselves to try to disqualify or debase some other beliefs system that has really done nothing wrong, other than have different beliefs than the mainstream religions.
[edit on 31-8-2007 by SpeakerofTruth]
I may be wrong, but didnt pagans end up worshiping gods of sacrifice, throwing their loved ones into the fire as sacrifice to baal?
and it was just last night a friend was telling me how this town in michigan i think, has so many muslims they have received rights to ring the annoying call to prayer bell 5 times a day. Also mentioned the moon god reference as well.
And I think islam is demonic, I just look at the way they behave, their children are unruly, mothers dont have much power in the family it seems, they just kite their kids around letting them be loud and unruly, its no wonder to me the whole of the culture is so self deceived. And here they are claiming to be masters of the world. They are merely setting themselves up for a major dissapointment. losing.
And its just possible that mecca and the circling around the cuboid stone mimicks the energy needed to open a portal. which yes I believe in a spirit world. And i think islam is unwittingly opening evil doorways. Inviting themselves to become more possessed by satanic (evil) forces
[edit on 6-9-2007 by mastermind77]
And still the COMMENT "out of context", means nothing...
The WORDS are still there....
Anyones OPINION that they are "Out of CONTEXT" means SQUAT in ambiguity or accuracy, compared to their quite simple and evident existence in the text of which we speak.
The quote, "It is what it is" is VERY applicable here...
If you will read my earlier posts on the entire subject, you will find that I stated quite clearly that REGARDLESS of the text in any HOLY manuscript, it is ones BELIEF that counts...
EXAMPLE...
I believe the archaeological evidence supporting the idea that Muhammad founded and designed his religion around the Multi-theistic "Moon God" that his people were familiar with at the time, is compelling and factual.
This does not in anyway, in my opinion reduce the validity of that religion. What Muslims see in their minds now, when they pray, I am sure is NOT a MOON God, but the ALLAH they truly believe in.
Such is Faith...
In my particular religion, we only use the Old Testament for Historical and Prophesy reasons. To build a foundation around the ultimate coming of Christ and His death for all of our sins.
I do NOT imagine myself stoning anyone just because it talks of this in my Bible.
Again, my faith...
The quotes I referenced from the Quran are subject to any believers personal and religious perceptions. They can be construed to support the radicals, or accepted as simply the acts of violence in a violent time and not applicable to today.
Again, subject to the faith of the individual...
My "bone of contention" as it were, is simply that they are there.
As I stated, above, out of context means squat as it relates to any individual interpretation of script without proof of the same ambiguity you speak of...
It would appear that some, perhaps yourself, would suggest that I am "Slamming" one particular religion because I post text that exists in the book of that religion.
That kind of paranoia and over reaction is the same thing that caused so much destruction over the Denmark Cartoons. It is anti social and speaks of a severe lack of faith in ones personal religious experience.
Anyones opinion of my personal religion, the almost daily degrading of Christianity and the simple fun poked at it, does not diminish my faith in the least and you will not find me disputing anyones interpretations of the writings in the Bible as it applies to what they believe. Unless of course they ask me for advice or guidance. (Fat Chance)
The fact that some Muslims have a "Thin Skin" and a difficult time discussing the actual text that is in their Quran, is and should be of no concern to an intellectual discussion about it.
Again, it is what it is...
If your interpretation of the text, or DJ's or Jesus Christ's differ from mine, so be it. That is wonderful in that it gives us intellectual fodder to debate from.
After this thread took the turn it did, I went back through and started researching several similar threads and found the same attitude on most of them.
Anytime any individual would post quotes, negative or otherwise, from a religious text, some others would become heated and inflamed about what is there for all to see.
Again, "It is what it is"
Semper
The WORDS are still there....
Anyones OPINION that they are "Out of CONTEXT" means SQUAT in ambiguity or accuracy, compared to their quite simple and evident existence in the text of which we speak.
The quote, "It is what it is" is VERY applicable here...
If you will read my earlier posts on the entire subject, you will find that I stated quite clearly that REGARDLESS of the text in any HOLY manuscript, it is ones BELIEF that counts...
EXAMPLE...
I believe the archaeological evidence supporting the idea that Muhammad founded and designed his religion around the Multi-theistic "Moon God" that his people were familiar with at the time, is compelling and factual.
This does not in anyway, in my opinion reduce the validity of that religion. What Muslims see in their minds now, when they pray, I am sure is NOT a MOON God, but the ALLAH they truly believe in.
Such is Faith...
In my particular religion, we only use the Old Testament for Historical and Prophesy reasons. To build a foundation around the ultimate coming of Christ and His death for all of our sins.
I do NOT imagine myself stoning anyone just because it talks of this in my Bible.
Again, my faith...
The quotes I referenced from the Quran are subject to any believers personal and religious perceptions. They can be construed to support the radicals, or accepted as simply the acts of violence in a violent time and not applicable to today.
Again, subject to the faith of the individual...
My "bone of contention" as it were, is simply that they are there.
As I stated, above, out of context means squat as it relates to any individual interpretation of script without proof of the same ambiguity you speak of...
It would appear that some, perhaps yourself, would suggest that I am "Slamming" one particular religion because I post text that exists in the book of that religion.
That kind of paranoia and over reaction is the same thing that caused so much destruction over the Denmark Cartoons. It is anti social and speaks of a severe lack of faith in ones personal religious experience.
Anyones opinion of my personal religion, the almost daily degrading of Christianity and the simple fun poked at it, does not diminish my faith in the least and you will not find me disputing anyones interpretations of the writings in the Bible as it applies to what they believe. Unless of course they ask me for advice or guidance. (Fat Chance)
The fact that some Muslims have a "Thin Skin" and a difficult time discussing the actual text that is in their Quran, is and should be of no concern to an intellectual discussion about it.
Again, it is what it is...
If your interpretation of the text, or DJ's or Jesus Christ's differ from mine, so be it. That is wonderful in that it gives us intellectual fodder to debate from.
After this thread took the turn it did, I went back through and started researching several similar threads and found the same attitude on most of them.
Anytime any individual would post quotes, negative or otherwise, from a religious text, some others would become heated and inflamed about what is there for all to see.
Again, "It is what it is"
Semper
Originally posted by babloyi
An example of a quote out of context:
"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword."
I know what he's talking about, you know what he's talking about, but if someone who didn't know the bible read just that (and even the lines after it), they'd have a very different perception of Christianity.
An excellent example of what I am talking about.
You are wrong semper. Context means everything... yes the words are still there but it is context both from the surrounding words and from the historical perspective that give them their actual meaning.
BTW Thank you beachcoma... I am glad someone understands what I am trying to get at.
[edit on 6-9-2007 by grover]
You are wrong semper. Context means everything..
Grover, everyone understands what your "trying" to get at...
The problem is AGAIN, you are looking at in in a monochromatic view....
The Grasp of the CONTEXT will ALWAYS vary with the individual....
Talk about not getting it... SHEEEESH
You still have no idea of what I am talking about after all of my posts....
That is because YOU are attempting to align a prejudice to me that is not present... Perhaps only then will you feel vindicated.. I don't know...
If you read my posts, READ them, you will see that I am in all actuality defending EVERY belief..
If you can't understand that by now, then perhaps you never will and my first instinct to leave the thread to the emotional responses was in fact correct...
Perhaps we will cross paths again in another debate that is specific to the intellect and not what this has become...
Semper
Originally posted by semperfortis
You are wrong semper. Context means everything..
Grover, everyone understands what your "trying" to get at...
The problem is AGAIN, you are looking at in in a monochromatic view....
The Grasp of the CONTEXT will ALWAYS vary with the individual....
Talk about not getting it... SHEEEESH
You still have no idea of what I am talking about after all of my posts....
That is because YOU are attempting to align a prejudice to me that is not present... Perhaps only then will you feel vindicated.. I don't know...
If you read my posts, READ them, you will see that I am in all actuality defending EVERY belief..
Semper
I most certainly do understand what you are talking about and and i am aware that you have defended every faith and I understand what you mean when you say that the grasp of the context will vary with the individual. I understand all that and for the most part agree... up to a point, and the point is that the context within which something was written does matter, if only for historical accuracy.
If for example you quote a passage that says kill all infidels and leave it at that like you did it reads like a blanket command. But what you have done is to leave out the cultural and historical context that Muhammad was specifically talking about pagans and idol worshipers and more specifically that he was talking about an upcoming battle.
THAT IS WHAT I AM TALKING ABOUT. And in that example context does indeed matter...A LOT.
[edit on 6-9-2007 by grover]
Hello again, semperfortis.
Like I said before, what you posted could not possibly be taken as exact quotes, because they're not. They're interpretations and condensations of things in the Quran. When I said 'out of context', I didn't mean something like "this was said 1400 years ago, you have to take it in the context of the time!". I meant that if you read the lines just before and after the 'quoted' lines, it means an entirely different thing!
I didn't want to go into a huge post with all the explanations of all the lines you posted, because thats really been done to death. DJ just scratched the surface there with his 3 links. Since you say there's no proof of out of context, I guess I'll give you some. It was somewhat difficult to find the verses that seemed to match up with what you posted, since they weren't referenced completely, so bear with me (the parts that matched exactly with what you quoted have been bolded):
YOU SAID: Kill disbelievers wherever you find them. If they attack you, then kill them. Such is the reward of disbelievers. 191
What I could find:
Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loveth not transgressors. And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have Turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith. : But if they cease, Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful. [2:190-192]
You said: Have no unbelieving friends. Kill the unbelievers wherever you find them. 89
If the unbelievers do not offer you peace, kill them wherever you find them. Against such you are given clear warrant. 91
What I found:
They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks;- Except those who join a group between whom and you there is a treaty (of peace), or those who approach you with hearts restraining them from fighting you as well as fighting their own people. If Allah had pleased, He could have given them power over you, and they would have fought you: Therefore if they withdraw from you but fight you not, and (instead) send you (Guarantees of) peace, then Allah Hath opened no way for you (to war against them). Others you will find that wish to gain your confidence as well as that of their people: Every time they are sent back to temptation, they succumb thereto: if they withdraw not from you nor give you (guarantees) of peace besides restraining their hands, seize them and slay them wherever ye get them: In their case We have provided you with a clear argument against them. [4:89-91]
I got all this from the same usc website you linked to. I didn't want to go into all of this, because the verses are huge (although it's still necessary to read it all to understand), and this all seemed very petty. However, if you really wish me to address all of the points you posted, maybe I can PM them to you, or you could start another topic about them.
I agree that to a point, it's the individual's interpretation of what the context is, but definitely not in cases like this, where the context is stated pretty clearly.
[edit on 7-9-2007 by babloyi]
Like I said before, what you posted could not possibly be taken as exact quotes, because they're not. They're interpretations and condensations of things in the Quran. When I said 'out of context', I didn't mean something like "this was said 1400 years ago, you have to take it in the context of the time!". I meant that if you read the lines just before and after the 'quoted' lines, it means an entirely different thing!
I didn't want to go into a huge post with all the explanations of all the lines you posted, because thats really been done to death. DJ just scratched the surface there with his 3 links. Since you say there's no proof of out of context, I guess I'll give you some. It was somewhat difficult to find the verses that seemed to match up with what you posted, since they weren't referenced completely, so bear with me (the parts that matched exactly with what you quoted have been bolded):
YOU SAID: Kill disbelievers wherever you find them. If they attack you, then kill them. Such is the reward of disbelievers. 191
What I could find:
Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loveth not transgressors. And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have Turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith. : But if they cease, Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful. [2:190-192]
You said: Have no unbelieving friends. Kill the unbelievers wherever you find them. 89
If the unbelievers do not offer you peace, kill them wherever you find them. Against such you are given clear warrant. 91
What I found:
They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks;- Except those who join a group between whom and you there is a treaty (of peace), or those who approach you with hearts restraining them from fighting you as well as fighting their own people. If Allah had pleased, He could have given them power over you, and they would have fought you: Therefore if they withdraw from you but fight you not, and (instead) send you (Guarantees of) peace, then Allah Hath opened no way for you (to war against them). Others you will find that wish to gain your confidence as well as that of their people: Every time they are sent back to temptation, they succumb thereto: if they withdraw not from you nor give you (guarantees) of peace besides restraining their hands, seize them and slay them wherever ye get them: In their case We have provided you with a clear argument against them. [4:89-91]
I got all this from the same usc website you linked to. I didn't want to go into all of this, because the verses are huge (although it's still necessary to read it all to understand), and this all seemed very petty. However, if you really wish me to address all of the points you posted, maybe I can PM them to you, or you could start another topic about them.
I agree that to a point, it's the individual's interpretation of what the context is, but definitely not in cases like this, where the context is stated pretty clearly.
[edit on 7-9-2007 by babloyi]
Well, it would make sense, but what difference does it make? Yahweh is possibly derived from Howeh, meaning destroyer. The greek translation calls
him "shaddai", which also means destroyer.
So when solomon builds his temple, all israel comes around to see and "the glory of the lord" appears above it and shoots down a pillar of fire to immolate the sacrifices, while all israel bows down and chants "the destroyer's love is eternal"...
...does a moon god seem so bad?
So when solomon builds his temple, all israel comes around to see and "the glory of the lord" appears above it and shoots down a pillar of fire to immolate the sacrifices, while all israel bows down and chants "the destroyer's love is eternal"...
...does a moon god seem so bad?
Thank you again babloyi for helping to put this debate on context into context. You highlight exactly what I am trying to point out.
reply to post by mastermind77
Well, apparently, you didn't understand my post. If you read up on the three Abrahamic religions, you'll find a history that is not only revolting, but power hungry. For anyone of any of the Abrahamic religions to try and debase someone elses beliefs is awfully amusing to me.
TexAbrahamic Religions
1. Judaism
2. Christianity
3. Islam
Well, apparently, you didn't understand my post. If you read up on the three Abrahamic religions, you'll find a history that is not only revolting, but power hungry. For anyone of any of the Abrahamic religions to try and debase someone elses beliefs is awfully amusing to me.
TexAbrahamic Religions
1. Judaism
2. Christianity
3. Islam
reply to post by semperfortis
I see some here defend the Islamic faith by saying the quotes are taken out of context, etc. As far as I can tell, none of them are Islamic. Perhaps that has been one of my problems with them is that they do not come forward themselves to clarify or tell us how sorry they are for what their fanatics do. Why?
Instead, when the towers were destroyed and 3,000 Americans murdered we saw clips of their peaceful Islamic women dancing in the street. No one came forward to tell us they were sorry, that the terrorists were wrong in doing what they did. Instead, they send more. Instead, they blow their own children up along with other civilians.
Islam may have been hijacked by extremists but none of the others seem to mind. At least, I haven't heard the disclaimer yet. Until then, it doesn't seem like a peaceful religion to me and again I say, their god is not our God.
................Whirlwind
I see some here defend the Islamic faith by saying the quotes are taken out of context, etc. As far as I can tell, none of them are Islamic. Perhaps that has been one of my problems with them is that they do not come forward themselves to clarify or tell us how sorry they are for what their fanatics do. Why?
Instead, when the towers were destroyed and 3,000 Americans murdered we saw clips of their peaceful Islamic women dancing in the street. No one came forward to tell us they were sorry, that the terrorists were wrong in doing what they did. Instead, they send more. Instead, they blow their own children up along with other civilians.
Islam may have been hijacked by extremists but none of the others seem to mind. At least, I haven't heard the disclaimer yet. Until then, it doesn't seem like a peaceful religion to me and again I say, their god is not our God.
................Whirlwind
Originally posted by whirlwind
Perhaps that has been one of my problems with them is that they do not come forward themselves to clarify or tell us how sorry they are for what their fanatics do. Why?
Is that so? How hard have you looked, because if you claim this as fact, I will gladly reply in a private message to you with over a hundred news links that says Muslims have denounced terrorism, if you like.
Instead, when the towers were destroyed and 3,000 Americans murdered we saw clips of their peaceful Islamic women dancing in the street.
First, not all 3000 deaths were Americans. Second, the media footage used to show people dancing in the streets had been filmed many years early, not even related to terrorism. The only people who were laughing and dancing on the streets were Israeli agents.
No one came forward to tell us they were sorry, that the terrorists were wrong in doing what they did.
Again, do you claim this as a fact? How much research have you put into this?
Instead, they send more. Instead, they blow their own children up along with other civilians.
Can you show us news articles where this has happened in the US?
Islam may have been hijacked by extremists but none of the others seem to mind.
Which is why sites like this and this don't really exist?
At least, I haven't heard the disclaimer yet.
Once again, where have you looked? Even Fox News, of all places had Muslim Imams denouncing terrorism, so I will say you haven't been looking hard if you can claim this.
Until then, it doesn't seem like a peaceful religion to me and again I say, their god is not our God.
It's a good thing there are no terrorists in your faith. Would you care to tell us what your faith is, so that I may look up its entirely peaceful history?
reply to post by DJMessiah
I haven't looked hard at all nor do I believe I should have to. It should be blatantly obvious if they wish to denounce it.
Perhaps they weren't Americans but they were on American soil. Do you really believe the Israeli's were happy about this?
I didn't say it happened here. Does it matter to you if it was here or there? They still do what they do and it is evil.
Again, I shouldn't have to look hard at all. The Imam you mentioned, at least the one I saw, looked like he had a gun pointed at his head when he made his speech. It certainly didn't look like a heart-felt apology.
I'm a Christian. Before you tell me how terrible God was in the OT please understand that if any of any faith in this country did something as heinous as the terrorists I can't imagine anyone here, except perhaps the ACLU or Ward Churchill, taking their side, can you?
............Whirlwind
Is that so? How hard have you looked, because if you claim this as fact, I will gladly reply in a private message to you with over a hundred news links that says Muslims have denounced terrorism, if you like.
I haven't looked hard at all nor do I believe I should have to. It should be blatantly obvious if they wish to denounce it.
First, not all 3000 deaths were Americans. Second, the media footage used to show people dancing in the streets had been filmed many years early, not even related to terrorism. The only people who were laughing and dancing on the streets were Israeli agents.
Perhaps they weren't Americans but they were on American soil. Do you really believe the Israeli's were happy about this?
Instead, they send more. Instead, they blow their own children up along with other civilians......Can you show us news articles where this has happened in the US?
I didn't say it happened here. Does it matter to you if it was here or there? They still do what they do and it is evil.
Once again, where have you looked? Even Fox News, of all places had Muslim Imams denouncing terrorism, so I will say you haven't been looking hard if you can claim this.
Again, I shouldn't have to look hard at all. The Imam you mentioned, at least the one I saw, looked like he had a gun pointed at his head when he made his speech. It certainly didn't look like a heart-felt apology.
good thing there are no terrorists in your faith. Would you care to tell us what your faith is, so that I may look up its entirely peaceful history?
I'm a Christian. Before you tell me how terrible God was in the OT please understand that if any of any faith in this country did something as heinous as the terrorists I can't imagine anyone here, except perhaps the ACLU or Ward Churchill, taking their side, can you?
............Whirlwind
This is why context is so damned important... misunderstandings and antagonism between sister faiths that should not be there at all.
When you have Jihadists taking passages of the Quran out of context to promote their their acts of terrorism it would behoove us not to do the same to condemn Islam. Because ultimately in doing so we are doing the exact same thing that the terrorists do to justify their actions.
When context is lost, said passages can be used to "prove" anything. Most people are not Quranic scholars any more than they are Biblical scholars so they either tend to believe the most simple explantations or they accept the word of a preacher, or mullah or a rabbi (or whomever) who sounds like they know what they are talking about, whether they do or not, and whether they have an agenda or not.
Without that context, both from the surrounding passages, and more importantly, the historical context, the Quran becomes very easy to reinterpret, misconstrue or out and out lie about.
The Bible both old and new have been used to justify many sad and horrible things from the burning of witches to the killing of doctors who preform abortions, and much more besides. And, to do so they pick and choose passages that they can interpret, out of context, to justify their actions.
Same thing the terrorists do; and both are wrong.
BTW Whirlwind... there were plenty of rebuttals to the terrorists after 9/11 in the Islamic world. And you are right, you shouldn't have to look BUT our media was not reporting them, though other nations were. For that you should blame the controlling powers behind U.S. media, not the Islamic world.
That is why it is important to get your news from as many sources as possible and to go looking if you have to because, we, like the other countries we condemn for their propaganda, rarely get the full story.
[edit on 7-9-2007 by grover]
When you have Jihadists taking passages of the Quran out of context to promote their their acts of terrorism it would behoove us not to do the same to condemn Islam. Because ultimately in doing so we are doing the exact same thing that the terrorists do to justify their actions.
When context is lost, said passages can be used to "prove" anything. Most people are not Quranic scholars any more than they are Biblical scholars so they either tend to believe the most simple explantations or they accept the word of a preacher, or mullah or a rabbi (or whomever) who sounds like they know what they are talking about, whether they do or not, and whether they have an agenda or not.
Without that context, both from the surrounding passages, and more importantly, the historical context, the Quran becomes very easy to reinterpret, misconstrue or out and out lie about.
The Bible both old and new have been used to justify many sad and horrible things from the burning of witches to the killing of doctors who preform abortions, and much more besides. And, to do so they pick and choose passages that they can interpret, out of context, to justify their actions.
Same thing the terrorists do; and both are wrong.
BTW Whirlwind... there were plenty of rebuttals to the terrorists after 9/11 in the Islamic world. And you are right, you shouldn't have to look BUT our media was not reporting them, though other nations were. For that you should blame the controlling powers behind U.S. media, not the Islamic world.
That is why it is important to get your news from as many sources as possible and to go looking if you have to because, we, like the other countries we condemn for their propaganda, rarely get the full story.
[edit on 7-9-2007 by grover]
I am sorry to say God is not the same in all religions but we just all agree there is a God or a higher force.
You go to some Middle east country and preach the Bible in the street the way your God told your deciples and see what happens. Well you know what will happen because alot of the truth of the Bible being they were killed and executed because of what they were doing still applies today.
Christians in the Middle East are driven out for their faith if not put to death, but yet where is their own Islamic revolution to over turn this, there never will be, Islam is made for it self. You can not turn this pancake, one side is raw one side burning. Muslims can learn tolerance from the West then apply it to their understanding of unity of tollerance, but that is because their democratic upbringing way of life here showed them that. This has made it possible to influence Muslims in West to sound like Islam invented it and its not the case in middle east countries by majority opinion and laws to have no other way or peoples. People from these Middle East nations that try and sell that to the diversity of man kind is acceptable is a myth their laws prove that as law is their religion.
We can all unite but the rules and covenants are made to different bloodlines and nations, the rules seperate the religions so we ask if these God's are really the same because in the end you can not believe in two faiths or things they will contradict and make the whole idea of God humanistic and imperfect by nature, perfection of which the higher being promotes and has authority.
Is Allah the Moon GOD? The crecent moon on the mosques maybe indicate? If not so then is it desecration of a holy place to but something Godless on top of a Mosque, man made blasphamy?
[edit on 7-9-2007 by The time lord]
You go to some Middle east country and preach the Bible in the street the way your God told your deciples and see what happens. Well you know what will happen because alot of the truth of the Bible being they were killed and executed because of what they were doing still applies today.
Christians in the Middle East are driven out for their faith if not put to death, but yet where is their own Islamic revolution to over turn this, there never will be, Islam is made for it self. You can not turn this pancake, one side is raw one side burning. Muslims can learn tolerance from the West then apply it to their understanding of unity of tollerance, but that is because their democratic upbringing way of life here showed them that. This has made it possible to influence Muslims in West to sound like Islam invented it and its not the case in middle east countries by majority opinion and laws to have no other way or peoples. People from these Middle East nations that try and sell that to the diversity of man kind is acceptable is a myth their laws prove that as law is their religion.
We can all unite but the rules and covenants are made to different bloodlines and nations, the rules seperate the religions so we ask if these God's are really the same because in the end you can not believe in two faiths or things they will contradict and make the whole idea of God humanistic and imperfect by nature, perfection of which the higher being promotes and has authority.
Is Allah the Moon GOD? The crecent moon on the mosques maybe indicate? If not so then is it desecration of a holy place to but something Godless on top of a Mosque, man made blasphamy?
[edit on 7-9-2007 by The time lord]
SIGH.
If God is infinite and unknowable and beyond the conception of men; then how in the hell can you say that just because one people call it Yehweh and another Allah, that they are not referring to the same being?
YOU CAN"T!!! God is a singularity and as such cannot be defined.
If God is infinite and unknowable and beyond the conception of men; then how in the hell can you say that just because one people call it Yehweh and another Allah, that they are not referring to the same being?
YOU CAN"T!!! God is a singularity and as such cannot be defined.
reply to post by grover
The name He is called isn't important Grover. Actually, it may be to Him but for this discussion that isn't the point. Everyone who has ever been or will ever be is His child.
Ezekiel 18:4 Behold, all souls are Mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is Mine; the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
From the worst terrorist to the most saintly Sister Teresa, they belong to Him. The difference is who they follow, who they, or we, listen to. If they believe their god thinks it's just hunky dory to blow an innocent person to bits and pieces it is not our God. I'm not talking about going to war, I'm talking about their daily dose of hatred against anything they believe their god tells them to hate.
Our God tells us we must love them anyway. Their god is not our God. If their faith was filled with souls like yours Grover there would be no problem, no war....but it is not. If the Christian faith was filled with all true and wonderful souls there would be no war.....but it is not. One day there will be a "singularity" when all souls worship one God but until then good will and must fight evil.
.............Whirlwind
SIGH.
If God is infinite and unknowable and beyond the conception of men; then how in the hell can you say that just because one people call it Yehweh and another Allah, that they are not referring to the same being?
YOU CAN"T!!! God is a singularity and as such cannot be defined.
The name He is called isn't important Grover. Actually, it may be to Him but for this discussion that isn't the point. Everyone who has ever been or will ever be is His child.
Ezekiel 18:4 Behold, all souls are Mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is Mine; the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
From the worst terrorist to the most saintly Sister Teresa, they belong to Him. The difference is who they follow, who they, or we, listen to. If they believe their god thinks it's just hunky dory to blow an innocent person to bits and pieces it is not our God. I'm not talking about going to war, I'm talking about their daily dose of hatred against anything they believe their god tells them to hate.
Our God tells us we must love them anyway. Their god is not our God. If their faith was filled with souls like yours Grover there would be no problem, no war....but it is not. If the Christian faith was filled with all true and wonderful souls there would be no war.....but it is not. One day there will be a "singularity" when all souls worship one God but until then good will and must fight evil.
.............Whirlwind
Originally posted by whirlwind
If they believe their god thinks it's just hunky dory to blow an innocent person to bits and pieces it is not our God. I'm not talking about going to war, I'm talking about their daily dose of hatred against anything they believe their god tells them to hate.
Their god is not our God. If their faith was filled with souls like yours Grover there would be no problem, no war....but it is not.
And that is where you are wrong whirlwind.... it is just some and a very small number of some who think that is alright. The Quran is very explicit in saying point blank if there is to be war, innocents are not to be involved and for every quote you find that endorses war or killing infidels etc. I can find an equal number praising peace and compassion and love... these terrorists are nihilists, not Muslims, though they may call themselves that and they defame a great religion in doing so... but yes their God is our God since there is no God but God.
Originally posted by grover
SIGH.
If God is infinite and unknowable and beyond the conception of men; then how in the hell can you say that just because one people call it Yehweh and another Allah, that they are not referring to the same being?
YOU CAN"T!!! God is a singularity and as such cannot be defined.
Really? Really really?
So when Yahweh pops around to Abraham's house for tea just before the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah...and when he enter's the "god tent" with Moses for a nice chat during Exodus...that is an inconceivable, infallable, infinite divine entity?
Don't make me laugh.
I cannot argue with applied ignorance; and there is a lot of that on this thread, unfortunately.
If you do not understand that which we call "God" or "Allah" or any of the other nine billion names, is by necessity beyond human understanding, then nothing I can say will make you change your mind.
And if you do not understand that it doesn't matter what we call God, we are still referring to the same thing, then I cannot help you.
And if you do not understand that all paths lead to God if followed with devotion and heart and that there is no one true faith except that which speaks most clearly to you; then follow your path with all your heart and soul and may God bless and keep you. But do not belittle of denigrate the faith of another, it is arrogant and mean spirited, and wrong.
There are as many ways to express worship, awe and gratitude as there are human hearts, and more. And, if offered with love and devotion God will accept them all.
If you do not understand that which we call "God" or "Allah" or any of the other nine billion names, is by necessity beyond human understanding, then nothing I can say will make you change your mind.
And if you do not understand that it doesn't matter what we call God, we are still referring to the same thing, then I cannot help you.
And if you do not understand that all paths lead to God if followed with devotion and heart and that there is no one true faith except that which speaks most clearly to you; then follow your path with all your heart and soul and may God bless and keep you. But do not belittle of denigrate the faith of another, it is arrogant and mean spirited, and wrong.
There are as many ways to express worship, awe and gratitude as there are human hearts, and more. And, if offered with love and devotion God will accept them all.
reply to post by grover
There is no God but our God. That is wellsaid and I agree, there is only One. But Grover, that is the very reason I say He is not who "some" of them follow. Our God does not say to do the things "some" of them do.
How can the "peace, compassion and love" you tell us is written in the Quran be so easily negated by others reading the same book? Even if the words are twisted by the teachers, the Imam's and taught an illiterate person, wouldn't that person know in his heart that it wasn't right.
How difficult would it be for you to kill a puppy? That is your natural God given goodness telling you it is wrong. Where is theirs?
I appreciate your teaching Grover and I will stop my broad brush painting of all of Islam but there are still far too many bad apples for me to believe it is a religion of peace. More, many more, need to step forward and condemn what is happening.
.........Whirlwind
And that is where you are wrong whirlwind.... it is just some and a very small number of some who think that is alright. The Quran is very explicit in saying point blank if there is to be war, innocents are not to be involved and for every quote you find that endorses war or killing infidels etc. I can find an equal number praising peace and compassion and love... these terrorists are nihilists, not Muslims, though they may call themselves that and they defame a great religion in doing so... but yes their God is our God since there is no God but God.
There is no God but our God. That is wellsaid and I agree, there is only One. But Grover, that is the very reason I say He is not who "some" of them follow. Our God does not say to do the things "some" of them do.
How can the "peace, compassion and love" you tell us is written in the Quran be so easily negated by others reading the same book? Even if the words are twisted by the teachers, the Imam's and taught an illiterate person, wouldn't that person know in his heart that it wasn't right.
How difficult would it be for you to kill a puppy? That is your natural God given goodness telling you it is wrong. Where is theirs?
I appreciate your teaching Grover and I will stop my broad brush painting of all of Islam but there are still far too many bad apples for me to believe it is a religion of peace. More, many more, need to step forward and condemn what is happening.
.........Whirlwind
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