When will you stand up for your country?

Originally posted by Quantum_Squirrel
i agree people seem to be avoiding the topic, is it because their scared?, they feel powerless? or they feel safe in the knowledge that mcdonalds will still be open tommorrow?

good question.
of course they are scared, what do you think. america is on war. outside and inside.

i mean surely if millions of people march to the front door of the whitehouse demanding resignation something would happen?

maybe its a minority view..

NO. ITS NOT. ITS A MAYORITY VIEW.
Bush wasnt elected for president. he got a job by his dad and friends.

maybe there isnt enough people to make a difference but what i have seen , read and heard over the past few months .. there are a lot of people that want to do atleast something.?

maybe. but its growing. have no fear.
the lies will end.

My suggestion: more direct democracy.
en.wikipedia.org...

in europe there are concepts already done on the basis of ´threefolding´

www.threefolding.org
www.threefolding.net...

public, civic life as a whole, like an organism,´structured´(better imagined) in three spheres :

economic life, state/ rights, education.

Originally posted by Quantum_Squirrel

Originally posted by geemony


The OP on the other hand doesnt understand politics. And to say we americans should just throw out Bush..... Easier said than done wouldnt you agree.

If you read ALL the posts here i am sure you wouldnt be posting this .....

And of Course its Easier said than done thats the WHOLE POINT of the thread.

The Question is what would it take!! and how would you do it if nescassery.

Understood, I post as i read , I am now caguth up so I apologize if any comment was a repeat. Listen bottom line is with a free society change is very slow IMO. It takes millions of people all thinking thje same thing to make any difference. To organize this is nothing short of a miracle. It will take a huge personal freedom act to get us riled up I think. When the government starts hindering our most personal of freedoms only then will Americans see it for the thing it is. OF course my opinion.

Take care

Here is the problem, MONEY!

Most people set back in their chairs pay some attention to what interests them on TV, and everything else takes a back seat. They know there are problems but I would make a bet to say that 70% of Americans don't understand the magnitude. Day after day after day, things go on in this world that we tune out. We don't see the long term agenda.

With that in mind, everyone sees the edited versions of news that you get on TV, nothing that takes a grasp on reality, just informational. Now, lets say you had 50 Million dollars and you put a small infomercial with some shocking information on it and a website name to get more info, enough to get peoples attention, during the middle of the Super Bowl!

Now that you have peoples attention, you have to keep it. You send them to a site that gives them verifiable facts about what our government and powers around the world are doing and agendas. Now if it were me, I would not take it lying down. You tell them to call their congressman or start protest movement or something.

But it's all about the money. Just like the Presidential campaigns coming up that use massive amounts of money to sway opinions by using TV and other media.

If you want to turn heads and get peoples attention, you have to do the same. Start posting commercials on local TV asking for reform and putting out facts to the people that they are not aware of. Use the media to start asking for donations to assist with reform initiatives. You would be surprised the money that would flow in. You start a country wide organization in each state which pays whistleblowers to make us aware of not so political politics within local/state/federal government.

We at this point, if we could become well financed, would be watching the watchers, swaying congressional opinion, bringing secret information to light, keeping tabs on where our tax dollars are spent, and bringing back hope to the American people that our government was formed for the people, by the people, and will no longer transform into this hideous beast that is out of control.

But, right now it is what it is. Without the financial backing to commit to an onslaught of this magnitude to reform a national institution that we all once loved, it becomes nothing more than a pipe dream. Unless a group is formed, with the right people, that is well financed, with the ability to use the national media as an effective tool to organize change, we are no more than lab animals waiting for our doom.

There is a beginning, money, but it is also the end as well. With it, we are strong, without it, we are nothing. Noone will listen to the squeeky voice in the middle of the night chanting change, but the voice of reason, publicized on paper and national TV causes people to gain hope. Then, and only then, will they feel they are not alone.

Originally posted by Quantum_Squirrel

Originally posted by SwatMedic
First of all, I'd like to know how we "got rid" of that "most intelligent" President.

His time was up, his terms were over, time to step aside.

Bush faces the same thing and will step aside when his time is done.

How can I enter into a rational debate when you start off misrepresenting the facts?

sry for my innacuracy of the clinton situation but i belive it was the begining of the end ? no?[edit on 15/8/07 by Quantum_Squirrel]

QS - Do you have any idea what you're talking about? Begining of the end? What the heck does that mean? It's been clearly pointed out to you at least twice that Pres. Clinton servied out his entire 8 year maximum term. Even if the IC investigation had discovered the presidential perjury prior to his re-election, I believe that the US electorate would have re-elected him. Important point here....He was impeached for perjury, not his extra curicular oval office antics.

Second, President Bush will be gone in 16 months.

Third, The voting citizens of my country will place into office and remove from office any politician they damn well like, regardless of the wishes and desires of any "world citizens".

[edit on 8/16/2007 by darkbluesky]

Sorry, didn't read all the reply pages.

But, I've said this before and I'll say it again. It's going to take more support than we have now. If even a few thousand of us marched on Washington the people would be put down and placed in detention camps just like the NY Republican Convention. Everyday people at home will sit there and watch as the main-stream media portrays us as lunatics and/or anti-American/Iraq protesters. We're still trying to reach those slothful bastards sitting on their sofas, not thinking a thing about the world or America's influence and destructive policy. Information is our best weapon right now. And we're using it. Eventually, and hopefully not to far down the road, we'll reach enough people. Then when they see the few thousand on t.v. getting arrested and detained in concentration-like camps, maybe they'll get off their lazy asses and stand up with us.

It's a slow process, if we want to win this fight. It's going to be a long, hard and strategic fight and we, as American people have to make sure we're equipped for the long haul with information, support and if need be arms. The latter would be the worst possible means to a revolution, but if Iran is invaded contrary to American support – you can bet there's going to be some ugly upheaval.

- IF -
Darth Bush and Emperor Chany freeze the Election process next year in order to "Keep Us Safe From The Terrorists That Are Everywhere"
- THEN -
You might see the sleeping giant suddenly wake up and that will be that.

However, untill that happens most here will keep watching American Idle & Sports, and continue to pretend that everything is allright, everythings fine.

Of course you try to take thier TV away that'll make 'em angry for sure too. That's why the Media paints everything so rosey, to keep the masses from looseing that TV that they can't seem to live without.

I don't watch much TV myself, 9/11 did it for me, it was just too much.

I'm verry selective nowadays what I watch and when and how much.

I also think that a lot of folks in the US are of the mindset where they think "Got to be a good citizen, Got to follow the rules, Got to stay under the radar, Then i'll be rewarded for following our leaders."

I do believe at some point folks will just get fed up with the lies, when that will happen is anyone's guess at this point, I know I'm long past that point, I'm sick of the lies.

- W -
* But's that's just me *


[edit on 8/16/2007 by Woulfe]

[edit on 8/16/2007 by Woulfe]

Originally posted by Quantum_Squirrel
you guys can get rid of one of the most intelligent presidents you have had in recent times for getting a certain [Profanity Removed] 'lady services under a table.'

You know, I am sorry, but I am sick and [removed] tired of people saying that is the reason Clinton was impeached. Here is a news flash:
CLINTON WAS NOT IMPEACHED BECAUSE OF WHAT HAPPENED WITH MS. LEWINSKY!

He was impeached because he lied under oath to a grand jury. That is perjury. It does not matter what he lied about. He still committed perjury. Get that through your thick skull first.

Second, he was not removed from office. He was acquitted. Impeach only means to bring to trial, not to remove from office. He served out his term. If you can't understand that, read the history books.

Mod Note: Profanity/Circumvention Of Censors – Please Review This Link.


[edit on 16-8-2007 by elevatedone]

Do an Internet search for "mena arkansas iran contra" and "Communications Assistance for Law Enforcement Act" and then consider whether Bill Clinton was really so great, or whether he was actually one of our more discrete tyrants who understood to what type of scrutiny he would be subjected as President. Remember, Monica Lewinsky came out of the Whitewater investigation; this is just jow Clinton happened to get gamed by the entrenched interests of the two-party system.

Can you remember EVER thinking of the United States as your "Homeland" before September 11, 2001? Clearly, some people were. "Homeland Security" wasn't something the Bush Administration thought up in a pinch, which happened to get introduced into American parlance as a result of the spectacle of the 911 disaster. The "Homeland Security Command and Control" was proposed in February 2001. References to "Homeland Security" and "Homeland Defense" can be found in military literature dating back to the mid 1990's. It was probably discussed well before then. Has a nice ring to it though: kind of like "Fatherland."

Violent revolution would be very ugly. Depending on your personal persuasion, think global economic catastrophe followed by domestic warlord rule: street thugs with lots of guns and Right-Wing Fundamentalist nutjobs with lots of guns, international drug cartels and evil marketing geniuses trying to exploit the chaos to their advantage. Endgame for everybody. No winners for decades.

Didn't Tony Blair's hand-picked successor, Gordon Brown, just say that Britons might need to become accustomed to the idea of snitching on their neighbors? Are we dealing with the rise of global fascism? Anybody else suspicious of elections decided within the statistical margin of error?

Thinking about getting out of the United States? It occur to you that you may just become a target for the CIA rendition program based on evidence collected through the recently amended FISA legislation? Terror.


It is true that Americans are not without options. If US citizens started getting pulled out of their beds in the middle of the night, there are people out there who will take up arms. No doubt. That's an option of sorts: wait for things to get so bad and let decades of strife clear things up.

Or Americans can be intelligent about their voting behavior, write Congress, write media outlets, put up fliers in coffeeshops, write on the sidewalk in colored chalk in neighborhoods with heavy pedestrian traffic.

Tell your representatives they've lost YOUR vote. Commit to voting only for Presidential candidates who EXPLICITLY vow to scrape out every last fascist element from our bureaucracies. Tell your media outlets by correspondence or by posting on their blogs that this is what you want.

Boycott the two-party system by voting for yourself. VOTE.

If you have the stomach for it, stop paying income tax. Or at least stop buying so much useless stuff. Take the bus or the train or a bicycle instead of driving.

Americans will tolerate quite a bit of injustice, but not much inconvenience. Be inconvenient if need be, to struggle for liberty, beauty, goodness, equality, and understanding. Arm yourself with compassion, facts and interpretations.

Study the scientific method: the same school of thought that gives us our science gave us our civil laws and our public education. Understand that when Intelligent design argues against evolution, it is not arguing against evolution in scientific terms. Intelligent design is a hypothesis, not a theory; the whole argument relies on the fact that "theory" means different things in scientific and colloquial terminology. The same school of thought that gave us intelligent design is selling us fascism and meaningless stock phrases in Washington as well as in Hollywood. Don't buy it.

Pay close attention to the specific language used by public figures. Think about what assumptions inform their phraseology. When the President tells you how great your freedom is, and about how America is spreading freedom around the globe, do you know what he is really saying? It's nonsense.

The word "freedom" appears in neither the Declaration of Independence nor the US Constitution. The Soverign State has freedom, not individuals.

Individuals enjoy "the blessings of Liberty," which they attain by the social contract in exchange for their individual freedom.



Here are some quotes from Jean-Jacques Rousseau, who developed much of the political thought upon which the United States is founded:


"The impulsion of mere appetite is slavery."

(What does this say about contemporary consumer culture?)


"In a well-governed State, there are few punishments."
"The frequency of punishment is always a sign of weakness or indolence in the Government."

(One out of every four people in prison is in the United States.)


"What any man, whoever he may be, orders on his own, is not a law."

(Bush's rampant issuance of executive orders is illegitimate.)

"Who desires the end desires also the means."

"Usurpers always bring about or choose disjointed times, in order to pass, under the cover of public terror, destructive laws which the people would never adopt when calm."


Read "Systems of Survival" by Jane Jacobs to learn why it's bad for government to think of itself as a business. In Jacobs's view, human social organization tends to produce two distinct systems of ethical standards: one for those who do business, the other for those who protect the conditions by which business can be done. They look like this:

THE COMMERCIAL MORAL SYNDROME

1. Shun Force
2. Come to voluntary agreements
3. Be honest
4. Collaborate easily with strangers and aliens
5. Compete
6. Respect Contracts
7. Use initiative and enterprise
8. Be open to inventiveness and novelty
9. Be efficient
10. Promote comfort and convenience
11. Dissent for the sake of the task
12. Invest for productive purposes
13. Be industrious
14. Be thrifty
15. Be optimistic


THE GUARDIAN MORAL SYNDROME

1. Shun trading
2. Exert prowess
3. Be obedient and disciplined
4. Adhere to tradition
5. Respect hierarchy
6. Be Loyal
7. Take vengeance
8. Deceive for the sake of the task
9. Make rich use of leisure
10. Be ostentatious
11. Dispense largesse
12. Be exclusive
13. Show fortitude
14. be fatalistic
15. Treasure honor


Think about how often you hear government spokespersons talking as though they were running a business. It's disturbing.

The problem is more fundamental than just money. It's a corruption of language. Read George Orwell's 1984 if you want a treatise on the effects of the systematic corruption of language.


As I've been re-reading Rousseau for the first time in many years, I'm struck by the clarity with which he describes the conditions that exist in our country today. That a man, with no comparable model of democracy, writing so long ago, could see so far into the future, is evidence of the wisdom with which our founding documents are imbued. That the words of a man with such wisdom, writing so long ago, have such pointed applicability today, is evidence of how much yet needs to be done.






(sorry, elevatedone)

[edit on 16-8-2007 by America Jones]

[edit on 16-8-2007 by elevatedone]

[edit on 16-8-2007 by America Jones]

[edit on 16-8-2007 by America Jones]

No President is perfect and they ALL feel that they're doing the right
thing for the country. Even with their mistakes, the USA is still the
best place to live, if you're an independent thinker with dreams and
aspirations. I haven't seen the recent stats, but I'd bet my right arm
that there are more people applying to enter the USA than their are
USA citizens moving out of this country.

What always amazes me is that everyone talks and no one really does anything. Nowhere in the media do you ever see a story explaining how the politicians make millions while they are supposed to be representing you.

No one ever discusses that the root cause is economic. Money my friends are at the root of it. If you remove the money from the politics you will see an effective change but in there lies the dilemma. How do you separate money from politics? In my honest opinion, only by force since other options are not available.

"Power concedes nothing without a demand. It never did and it never will." Fredrick Douglas

Ask yourself this question. Why does a millionaire want a job that pays 150K if it is not to make more money? I know that some idiot will probably say that I am a communist or a socialist to marginalize what I have said but think about it. What kind of world could we have if chasing the almighty dollar was not our main concern?

Originally posted by carewemust
No President is perfect and they ALL feel that they're doing the right
thing for the country.

I'm not so sure about that. All Presidents have had their own agendas. In my opinion, the President with the least "Private Agenda" was probably JFK. His agenda was more about Human rights and equality, though he had other international agendas as well. I think Bush has shown that his true loyalty lies with "Corporate Agenda." Remember, when Bush took office, gas prices in the United States were just above $1/gallon. Check here for the spike after he took office. Also, who get the largest Tax Break?

Originally posted by carewemust Even with their mistakes, the USA is still the best place to live, if you're an independent thinker with dreams and
aspirations.

I think Norway takes the cake on the best place to live. And there are several others that rank well above the U.S. in terms of standards of living and prosperity. America was ranked 8th. Not too bad, but I think we can do better.

For the fourth year in a row, the United Nations has ranked Norway as having the highest standard of living in the world. Sweden, Australia and Canada are next in line, while the United States is further down the scale. ...

The annual ranking is based largely on average levels of education and income, combined with expected length of lifetime. ...

The United States landed in eighth place on the list, while France, for example, was 16th.

Originally posted by dalepmay

CLINTON WAS NOT IMPEACHED BECAUSE OF WHAT HAPPENED WITH MS. LEWINSKY!

ok i am getting sick of this this has been gone over a million times in this thread already with me apologising and then setting the record straight..

If i could edit the original Post with an amendment i would, but that ability has disappeared.

now all you people who like to post with regards to the very first line in this thread, stop OP bashing and maybe put the effort into answering the real question at the bottom.

If you bothered to read the entire thread (yes i do accept its difficult at times due to lenghty posts) You would know this had turned into a very sensible,plausable and intresting discussion .. that is before all you Clinton blah blah people started chiming in again.

if u read my replies i said it was the beginning of the end because after lying under oath no one took him seriously..

i am msging a mod to attempt to rectify the original post, but please if you want to contribute do it in a positive way.

Originally posted by carewemust
No President is perfect and they ALL feel that they're doing the right
thing for the country.

Are you absolutely sure about the second part? When a president is sworn in he makes an oath to uphold the Constitution. That is the foundation of his job and his prime responsibility. Lately it would appear that the Constitution is getting in the way of more important agendas. I don't give a rat's cornhole whether a president 'feels' they're doing the right thing for the country. They have NO authority to circumvent the Constitution. Period.

One of the major problems we (the People) face is this whole Republican-vs-Democrat-Left-vs-Right dynamic. Face it people, its differnt colors of the same thing. 'They' are all equally responsible for the problem. By perpetuating that polarity they are utilizing one of the most basic tactics in population control: divide and conquer. We can't effect change if we don't see ourselves on the same side. 'They' know this and use it against us.

Until we are able to rally into an us-vs-them state-of-mind we are doomed and they are going to continue to play us as they have for decades. We can take this country back. It won't be easy and it will be a rough ride. But it can be done. We need to reinstate the controls on government explicit in the Constitution. Believe it or not, the law is on OUR side.

Im just as upset with the people who voted this corrupt buffoon in(TWICE!!)as with the administration itself.How could they still buy the lip service even after the first term?

Originally posted by Xfile
Im just as upset with the people who voted this corrupt buffoon in(TWICE!!)as with the administration itself.How could they still buy the lip service even after the first term?

in the Uk there were many people watching the second election, so elated that kerry was doing so well , it seemed a cert, then disbelief that Bush was with you for another 4 years , wasnt kerry ahead in all the polls it wreaked of another scandal like the original vote one.

Well, things were going pretty calmly until I saw this...
[quote removed by staff, it was advocating violence ]

Advocating the destruction of personal property is going to make things better? You speak of gun homicides well, I cant think of a better way to add to the numbers by having people destroy other peoples property.

There have been some very good reply's in this thread from different sides and viewpoints. I still think that many people bitch and complain just because they dont like who is in the white house and I'll bet whoever is next to be President will probably have his/her legion of naysayers and haters as well.

Whoever the suceesor is he/she will face a myriad of issues that havent been on the top of the list for a president in a long time. Reagan had the cold war, Bush I Desert Storm but Bush 2 is the first Prez since the '40's who had to deal with a massive attack on home soil (hawaii wasnt a state but US territory) and the threat of future attacks by nomadic terrorists. (The first attack on the TT's was a terror strike but not along the massive scale as 9-11)

Its not going to be easy for whomever is next and the focus will continue to be on homeland security which means other things will probably continue to be secondary. Immigration, oil prices, healthcare, education, job rate, infrastrucure....all these things will most likely continue to be on the backburner for a while.

The people are pissed...I understand that but I would rather be pissed at gas prices and my HMO ripping me off rather than worry daily about whether the local trains are going to be bombed or my kids school blown up.

In a utopia, all our issues would be addressed and fixed as they related to us but it isnt all gumdrops and lollypops. Many voices that you probably wont hear from on ATS understand and are willing to trade one for the other....and while many will call them sheep or asleep at the wheel, they would beg to differ.

Change is already in the wind. What it will yield, we hope it can only get better, but as far as revolution or revolt....I still say it aint happening until you get EVERYONE on board, and things arent that bad yet.

[edit on 16-8-2007 by elevatedone]

[edit on 16-8-2007 by SwatMedic]

"Recession is when your neighbor loses his job. Depression is when you lose yours."

This applies to most things...so long as your life sucks and mine doesn't..why do I care?

A little more on topic, America isn't in bad shape nor have the average person's freedoms been infringed by the administration's actions. There is some more surveilance, but what exactly have they done with it to actually be a problem?

So they know that I like to do naughty things on the net or that my parents are a little f-ed in the head? (most of which I make public knowledge anyway)

The government already knows how much money I have...taxes tell them that. They already know who my friends are...public gatherings tell
-anyone- that.

In other words, we are no where near the point of needing an actual stand-off or revolution.

What would be the straw that breaks the camel's back? Currently, nothing.

But if Hilary gets elected I wouldn't put it past any sane person to start a local militia to put her 6ft under. (sarcasm...I don't advocate assassination without a clearly defined monetary return)

There haven't been enough factors to piss off enough people. How long did the colonies sit under British rule and dislike it? A fairly long while. The attitude and ability to rebel is currently limited in the fact that we are so very, very divided (and not geographically as during our last war between the states). We are severally divided on thought process and philosphy. And there needs to be a leader...currently there is no one to lead a strong effort to make a sweeping change. (From previous history this will happen during the heat of the battle, but there's not a powerful enough battle raging to push someone forward to be the figurehead. People need something/someone to believe in...there isn't anyone out there with that kind of power actually pushing for major government reform.)

When will I stand up for my country?

I do every time I step into the voting booth. I do every time I contact my elected representatives. I do every time I editorialize here, or in the letters section of my newspaper.

I stand up for my country when I stay involved in the events that surround me, and that effect my country. There are millions just like me that do the same thing. Mr. Bush is rapidly approaching lameduckdom, and will be gone in just over a year. Am I horribly impressed with those vying to replace him? Not in the least... But eventually someone will come along that I can support, if not this go 'round, then in the next.

You may indeed be a citizen of the world (nice turn of phrase, but actually meaningless), but you are not a citizen of my country. Thanks for the advice, but we'll somehow manage to muddle through via our own devices.

Originally posted by SwatMedic
Whoever the suceesor is he/she will face a myriad of issues that havent been on the top of the list for a president in a long time.

I agree with you on your entire reply. I just wish more Americans would take more initiative and get involved with the little bit of politics that they're allowed. Such as RESEARCH candidates political stance on issues. Don't just wait for the two parties (both of which are utterly rhetorical jokes in themselves) to decide who they back as a candidate. DEMAND they nominate the person you support. If Ron Paul were elected the issues he would tackle are withdrawn ALL foreign policy and securing our homeland and borders. Oh, and one other small thing ... repeal the Patriot Act. Smaller government = happy citizens. We don't need some ridiculous piece of paper to grant us security. American people have taken care of themselves and made themselves secure for centuries and we'll continue to do so in the future. This is very apparent by the citizens who take it upon themselves to patrol our borders because the Border Patrol won't do a damned thing about it.

Originally posted by lukesaysmoo
People need something/someone to believe in...there isn't anyone out there with that kind of power actually pushing for major government reform.)

I hate to sound like a broken record, but I think Ron Paul would beg to differ.

[edit on 16-8-2007 by tyranny22]

First, your mad we took your country. And what would you advise us to do with our country? Please give all of your english wisdom. I mean we are the worlds greatest superpower but im sure english is better.