How can you honestly believe in God.

Qigong Demo with John Chang

I think we may be closer to proving God then we are aliens hahahahaha!
I guess it depends on your view of what God is but be are getting closer to some awsome discoverys. What an exciting time to be living the human experience. ~ J ~

There is something that has always bothered me about the I.D. vs Science debate.

Actually two things. And they are both about how Science stacks the deck in their favour.

1. People assume evolution or scientific discoveries support their Atheism
   
   There is no logical reason for anyone to make this assumption. By definition God has used the 'laws of the universe' to create existance. The more we learn about how those laws work and function has no bearing on the existance of a creator.
   
   When Science discovered the double-helix structure of DNA we were more enlightened about the workings of God and how life has always been on this planet. We were not suddenly given undeniable evidence that there is no God.
   
   When the theory of evolution was first put forth, there was absolutely no evidence introduced that would remove the need of a creator in existance. To this day, there has been no evidence presented which can explain the power behind the universe and how something so complex as the universe can exist 'by chance'. Even the term 'by chance' is a cop-out. Whenever you hear a scientist or researcher say the terms 'luck', 'by chance' or 'for lack of a better', you can guarantee he/she is pulling the wool over your eyes.
   
   There is no room in science for any of these things. Scientists have the Big Bang theory. That holds no water, it may work out mathematically with our current understanding of the universe, but it doesn't attempt to explain how existence came to be. Where did those two infinitely dense particles come from anyways? And why only two? And an even bigger question, if there where these two infinitely dense particles swimming around, for no apperant reason, in the vastness of space, what are the odds of them even coming close to each other, let alone having a head on collision?! Fantasy.
   
   
   
2. Science and evolution have the inherent right to revision. Belief does not.
   

Unfortunately, for the believers, Science has claimed a monopoly on revision.

Could you imagine if we were stuck with pre-renaissance era science for the eternity of our existance? Or if out of nowhere a moritorium on advancement of belief was taken out against scientists?

"Well, first you said the earth was flat, so now you have to stick with that forever".

"What do you mean the Earth doesn't revolve around the sun?! Wait a minute here, you can't just go changing your mind like that. Only if you are 100% right all of the time from the beginning until the end, perfectly clear, and without question, can you tell us how it all works. If you are just guessing then keep your mouth shut."

Can you imagine a world where this happened? What a joke that would be right? Exactly this thing has happened to belief. Believers are stuck with 2000 year old information that they cannot revise, cannot rewrite and cannot reinterpret. The reason for this is because people with a 'belief' in science (like who doesn't believe in science, the ones I'm talking about are using it as a surrogate for a belief in God), have schackled the believer into this paradox.

You have to look at the scientific state of the world 2000 years ago. Of course science, as revised and 'new' (and just as incomplete and bumbling as it ever was), as it is, looking back at explainations and stories and 'facts' of the past can poke holes in it. There is no surprise that a modern learned person can find fault in a great many things that antiquity leave sus.

My point in this post is not to judge either side or even make a decision myself, it is only to point out the two biggest 'unfair advantages' one side holds over the other.

If the detractors of intelligent design were to structure their arguements without referencing or taking advantage of my two 'unfair advantage' points, I don't think they would even be convincing to each other.

reply to post by 3_Libras


i bet its a tiny reason that guy is just a fraud and a ripoff artist yet millions believe what he says and take it to hart...its a pity that they don't read the bible in refrense because he twists the bible worse than the people who originally translated the bible into different versions...but why does that turn you away from the idea of God its just a group of televangelists who do this, witch need to be stripped of there fame and fortune and shown to there millions of fans that they are liars and sinners just like theme and he needs to be saved and all that stuff more than they "well almost more" do...kinda bad that they ask for another hundred thousand just so they can get there brand new private jet.

reply to post by Enrikez

well its a great thought and you porbaly took awhile to think of it all...man thats a lot of stuff...anyway i belive that evolutionary science is just a way to ignore the big picture. or to try to explain things in a esier way so that normal people can understand how everything supposedly works. i feel that the absense of religion makes things more confusing and more prone to violence. and argumentation. but hey were only human.

Originally posted by Enrikez
There is something that has always bothered me about the I.D. vs Science debate.

there is NO debate.

1. People assume evolution or scientific discoveries support their Atheism
   
   There is no logical reason for anyone to make this assumption. By definition God has used the 'laws of the universe' to create existance. The more we learn about how those laws work and function has no bearing on the existance of a creator.
   

(emphasis added)
logical fallacy: special pleading.
show me where in any holy book this is stated.

evolution may not disprove the existence of any deity... but it does shwo that the universe can exist in its present form without a deity.

When Science discovered the double-helix structure of DNA we were more enlightened about the workings of God and how life has always been on this planet. We were not suddenly given undeniable evidence that there is no God.

life HASN'T always been on this planet, there was quite the long stretch when it didn't.

When the theory of evolution was first put forth, there was absolutely no evidence introduced that would remove the need of a creator in existance.

well, in many ways it would. we have no need for a creator if we have a bunch of things that would exist wihtout it

To this day, there has been no evidence presented which can explain the power behind the universe and how something so complex as the universe can exist 'by chance'.

you're right. but there has been evidence to show how the universe can exist without a deity. the big bang, the formation of stars, solar systems, galaxies, etc.

Even the term 'by chance' is a cop-out. Whenever you hear a scientist or researcher say the terms 'luck', 'by chance' or 'for lack of a better', you can guarantee he/she is pulling the wool over your eyes.

it isn't about "chance" or "luck" it's about probability. you give the proper elements enough time and the proper conditions and they will act in certain ways.

There is no room in science for any of these things. Scientists have the Big Bang theory. That holds no water, it may work out mathematically with our current understanding of the universe, but it doesn't attempt to explain how existence came to be. Where did those two infinitely dense particles come from anyways? And why only two?

it's a work in progress for now... however, saying "goddunit" is a logically unsound way of doing things.

And an even bigger question, if there where these two infinitely dense particles swimming around, for no apperant reason, in the vastness of space, what are the odds of them even coming close to each other, let alone having a head on collision?! Fantasy.

there was no space....
i know that sounds realyl weird as hell, but, prior to the big bang... there was no space.

Science and evolution have the inherent right to revision. Belief does not.


Unfortunately, for the believers, Science has claimed a monopoly on revision.

yes, because the revisions of science are based on evidence... the revisions of religion are based on whim.

You have to look at the scientific state of the world 2000 years ago. Of course science, as revised and 'new' (and just as incomplete and bumbling as it ever was),

yes, that bumbling science that has erradicated smallpox and polio...

as it is, looking back at explainations and stories and 'facts' of the past can poke holes in it. There is no surprise that a modern learned person can find fault in a great many things that antiquity leave sus.

but you can't really find fault with modern science.

My point in this post is not to judge either side or even make a decision myself, it is only to point out the two biggest 'unfair advantages' one side holds over the other.

but those things are inherent about science. science in its present state has no room left for a creator, said being gets chopped out by occam's razor

If the detractors of intelligent design were to structure their arguements without referencing or taking advantage of my two 'unfair advantage' points, I don't think they would even be convincing to each other.

actually, it would...
and they aren't "unfair advantages" they are things inherent in science.

ID isn't a theory, it's just superstitious nonsense repackaged in a way to sneak it into the classroom.

[edit on 8/24/07 by madnessinmysoul]

[edit on 8/24/07 by madnessinmysoul]

reply to post by AncientVoid


You actually are very right about a few things
I think it is the fact that you know that 90% of what people say seems to always have its own agenda - and is usually manipulative lies
I have learned this the hard way.....
BUt, yes,mostly every war fought since time began seems to have "god" or religion at its core
And the catholic's have broken most of the 10 commandments so blatantly that it is almost comical if millions of followers were not blindly following them.
They killed everyone who did not agree with them 100%-burned all their
written beliefs and hey.......they even CHANGED THE "SABBATH DAY" from saturday to sunday
( it was more convenient to their schedule!!!!)

This is not God's work.......Sure , he created us- but the big thing was "free will"
He does not want to tell us what to do, make us do what he wants, and
like you said.....
why would he even care what we think or believe or even do to one another
He is just waiting to see if any of us will stay true and loyal through
the worst temptation there is
HIs fallen angel......
which is why we are here - in satan's world ( where he was banished to)
instead of heaven...
..cuz after his favorite angel broke his heart
He ain't taking chances with human's.....
This is why there are people like me , and many others who seem to always try to get people to believe
He (God) sent guides, people born with the purpose of helping the others to find Him -and be able to gain access into Heaven.....
I am one of HIs "employees" as i like to call it........
for i am not at all any type of angel....(farrrrrrr from it)
I have no special abilitys.............or any thing at all actually - not even good luck!!!!
BUt i was born with a knowledge of God, heaven and the whole "plan"
I also do have a very strong "evil" sensor that makes me run fast and far
any time it gets at all near me.....a block away i become a freak and panic
very embarrasing.....but does not happen very often....
which is pretty shocking since if it were my choice -
everyone almost would be taken off my party list!
THat is all i can really do- is tell what i know,....
and usually am just laughed at
the only proof i can give would be my parents story of my first communion when i was 4 or 5 years old( and a very quiet, shy little girl)
in the middle of the ceremony i addressed the church from the front
as i refused to go into confession, because God told me last night that
He did not want me near the man in the dress , cuz he was not who he says
I cried when my mom tried to stop me and told her i was sorry-
but God was very serious about it.
HE WAS ARRESTED A FEW YEARS LATER FOR BEING ONE OF THOSE PRIESTS IN OAKLAND, CA THAT WAS MOLESTING KIDS FOR YEARS
my mom apologized to me......but i was never even upset at all
thats what always happens when you are telling people to believe way out impossible sounding stuff- that cannot ever be proven...
I just have no choice -
it is my job......and actually
i love it.
..............................................iam renee
(renee- "the reincarnated")

TextTextText Purplereply to post by AncientVoid


OOHHH yeah i almost forgot
When it said in the bible that we were created in his image , it was before the whole" eve eating the forbidden fruit" story
which is when we (humans) were "punished" by becoming mortal and
covered our bare bodys from shame
this was not "clothes " that we covered up with
it was these human bodys (shells)that covered our original souls
that were the image of the lord and resembled a bright lighted energy source
that is the way our souls will revert to after dying and shedding our "shells" once again.
The true way God looks and is
is too much for our human brains to even grasp
there is no point in trying, for He is not of our world and
we are not equipped to understand

And church & religion are just people and their beliefs....
God is not found there....
THe only way is alone in your own soul......
your conscience is the way that He will let you know what is right or wrong for you
and actually
NO ONE CAN TELL ANYONE ELSE WHAT IS RIGHT OR WRONG FOR THEM....
WE ARE ALL DIFFERENT- AND WE
KNOW INSIDE WHAT IS RIGHT FOR US.....AND IT IS WRITTEN THAT IN THE END HE WILL HAVE YOU JUDGE YOURSELF.....
FOR THERE IS NO WAY TO LIE TO ONES INNER SOUL....
AND ONLY YOU & HIM KNOW.

God is not at all trippin' on 99 % of what we all are always stressing on
and fighting about
this is all humanitys creations....and sadly it turns most people off of the
entire subject
I am out of here
i hope i have helped clear SOME of the confusion
For at least 1 person today
if not ........i hope someone does in the near future
it really is getting near the "last call"
..................God bless
renee

Originally posted by Hexidecimal
Why do you, those that do, believe in God?

You cannot prove he exists. I know there's going to be people that say, "Well, you can't prove he dosn't either". So? I guess then I'll worship Bigfoot, The Easter Bunny, The Loch Ness monster, or any other mythical beast. You can't prove they dont exist either. "Theres no proof it does or doesn't, so it exists." I guess Wizards, Giants, heck, even Lygars exist.

Perhap's we live in a Simulated Universe. It's highly possible. With the way technology is advancing, Perhaps the real year is the year 3000, and technology is so advanced, that we cannot tell it's virtual, and we beleive we are in the year 2007. You can't tell me I'm wrong, and I can't say im right. There's no evidence for either.

As with my discussion on Shelley yates, I'm going to state the same point. Religion Sells. Someone, perhaps not even 100's of years ago, wrote the bible. They sold it to make money, as it was a good story, and people, either intentional or not, took it as a religion. There is no proof it was written when it says it was. The Bible says it was written then, but that dosn't make it right. "Scriptures written back then say it was written then." So someone primitive wrote down some ideas, and someone later in time make a book out of them. Doesn't mean it was.

Prove to me, your god. Why do you believe.

this sounds like a Philosophy of Religion question. or a scientist fighting a preacher and vice versa.

well as for the bible, every day events that are occuring today are spoke of in the bible. the bible is a means of letting the masses know what this planet is about and how it works... you can open the bible and relate something you just read to your own life. it is a book of life regardless if you beleive in god or not.

presonally i beleive everyone is god and god is everyone. that there really isnt a god,but only children/aliens of greater power than your own power that are able to rule situations under precise circumstances(mind control) in masking minds of less power or knowledge beleive that it is God.

life is god and with out life god cant exist, the children are life and we make god exist.

Originally posted by 3_Libras

Originally posted by DaRAGE

Originally posted by 3_Libras

Rightttttttt, but how is existence linked with a man up in the clouds?

My throughts of GOd aren't a Human existing inthe clods, or in heaven, or anything like that. That representation is man-made - aka the bible - "jesus will sit at teh right hand side fo the father, ie god., in the kingdom of heaven". the words" The heavens" has also been used to mean such as the sky.ie. "Look up into the heavens and tell me what you see?"

So heaven they represent god in human form as "god made us in his image", greeting us at teh pearly gates, lol.

But....in the beginning, when the Christinaty "boom" was happening, thats what it was...up in the sky...cos we knew no better. So if God was speaking to whoever wrote that tripe, then surely he gave him the right details? Must have been a bit vague then? Not to mention, the story of creation. Are you gonna sit there and tell me thats the most likely scenario? Puhhhhh-leasseee people.


The Bible is nothing more than a set of morals and laws by which to rule. Simple as that.

[edit on 31-7-2007 by 3_Libras]

why would God expain things that man are not capable of understaing.
why would you read your physics book to your dog when he only understand's seat, fetch and good boy

Originally posted by lenisey
KNOW INSIDE WHAT IS RIGHT FOR US.....AND IT IS WRITTEN THAT IN THE END HE WILL HAVE YOU JUDGE YOURSELF.....
FOR THERE IS NO WAY TO LIE TO ONES INNER SOUL....
AND ONLY YOU & HIM KNOW.
renee

Umm where is it written and who by?
Many things are written today...

Originally posted by thesun
why would God expain things that man are not capable of understaing.
why would you read your physics book to your dog when he only understand's seat, fetch and good boy

Your example of the dog and human is just stupid. Do we know the language of the dog, or he ours? No. But in the case of god, if he did exist and is so great, then he would be able to explain to humans. What annoys me the most is people use the phase, 'we would not understand' and 'he's in the form which is too great for us to see'. Seriously.... =.=


[edit on 24-8-2007 by AncientVoid]

Text RedTextTextTextTextTextText

God is just not a life form that we recognize and understand.
we call God a "him" for lack of having a better word to use.

He is an amazingly powerful, living, energy source that somehow has such intelligence that he created all that we call our world with such exact
prescision , balance, perfection down to every tiny detail that
it is not possible ......
This is why we cannot begin to understand-
We are but humble minor creations of "him"
with a little part of him inside of us giving us life.

but i guess if you really wanted to "see" him.......
then go by his own words
"i am the alpha the omega , the beginning, and end
of all that is seen and unseen......."
Look around .....
He lives in every spark of life that you see-
He is the voice of your conscience -
the wind in your hair, and the birds in the sky
the clouds, the thunder, the stars-

He gave us guides to understand , and they are everywhere
The prophets, the apostles, the scriptures....
although there is but one ...ONLY ONE ...
message ever written or documented that is actually GOD'S words,
The rest is interpretations of men
it is in the book of revelations...
where it states that it was written as
"DICTATED"
to ......instead of the word of the lord unto..."so & so"

The rest ....well that's where the "faith" part comes in.
and no one will ever be able to give you any solid proof.
God did not care to give us any .......
maybe He is not so anxious to convince anyone, i mean,
i wouldn't want hardly any humans in my paradise from what i've seen

.

j/k !.......

Originally posted by Impreza
Um, I don't know what rock you've been living under until now, but Ligers do exist! That's a true story, I swear to God.

same here...one big ass wannabe tigers

THIS IS QUOTED FROM WIKIPEDIA

The liger is a hybrid cross between a male Panthera leo (lion), and a female Panthera tigris (tiger) and is denoted scientifically as Panthera tigris × Panthera leo.[1][2] A liger resembles a lion with diffused stripes. They are the largest cats in the world,[3] although the Siberian Tiger is the largest pure sub-species. Like tigers, but unlike lions, ligers

SORRY- I know, this is really not the topic but,
see, sometimes things that are imaginary...
exist

there was no space....
i know that sounds realyl weird as hell, but, prior to the big bang... there was no space.

yeah thats does, but according to the big bang theory, matter and energy didnt exist either, the theory says that there was 'nothing'.
and 'nothing' cannot produce 'something' its theoretically impossible.
how can something from nothing be the cause of our own existence.

plus you think God doesnt exist... what about the things that science cannot explain? like supernatural healing of any sort (heart starting to beat when it shouldnt, brain activity when brain should be dying, people living when their bodily condition doesnt support it) what about all of these things? how do you explain those?

yes, because the revisions of science are based on evidence... the revisions of religion are based on whim.

no we find the laws and learn how they apply and how they support the theory. there is no conflict. the only big difference between creation and evolutionary theory is that the creation says that out of nothing, God created everything. and the evolutionary theory says that out of nothing (no time, space or matter) over billions of years, everything was created and formed.

but you can't really find fault with modern science.

oh really? what about Ernest Haeckel and his drawings put in textbooks as facts and getting his sued for fraud? or what about Archaeopteryx? that was also a fraud. these were listed as factual evidences.

science in its present state has no room left for a creator,

you know the more i look at his creation the more I believe and the more I realize that there has to be a creator.

ID isn't a theory, it's just superstitious nonsense repackaged in a way to sneak it into the classroom.

ID is never discussed in the classroom so I dont know what you are talking about. ID should be introduced back into the classroom, why cant another 'theory' be part of the discussion. you say there is no evidence supporting ID, if you think about it, there is really no evidence supporting evolution either. and its all debunked with the big bang because that theory goes against the first law of thermodynamics and the evolution of the universe as well as the earth goes against the second law.

Originally posted by lenisey
SORRY- I know, this is really not the topic but,
see, sometimes things that are imaginary...
exist

ligers never were imaginary... maybe at one point they were theoretical... but not imaginary.

on your earlier post... do you really think that the universe is perfect? if you do... why are there galaxies that implode?

and once more, proof?

[edit on 8/25/07 by madnessinmysoul]

ligers never were imaginary... maybe at one point they were theoretical... but not imaginary.

you can apply that same logic to God. you may not know for sure if he exists, but have faith that he does and even bring out the science in the bible so you dont automatically discredit it.

This is off topic a little bit but to make a point. Ligers may exist but they were made by MAN. A tiger and a lion have never mated in the natural wild. Men or women have made many things that are unnatural to the natural world and will continue to do so. Is this also considered creationism when man does it? I thought not.

Originally posted by Methuselah
you can apply that same logic to God. you may not know for sure if he exists, but have faith that he does and even bring out the science in the bible so you dont automatically discredit it.

no... see, god isn't even theoretical, god is hypothetical.

now, why should i have faith in your god over the countless other ones?
what science in the bible? a disc shaped earth? geocentrism? noah's ark?

i don't discredit the bible entire, it's just like any other book of myth, it contains good and bad, i just don't believe in any of it

Originally posted by lenisey
He is an amazingly powerful, living, energy source that somehow has such intelligence that he created all that we call our world with such exact
prescision , balance, perfection down to every tiny detail that

Perfect? What universe are you living in? Science has proven that the universe is not perfect, and it is this lumpiness or imperfection which forms the stars and planets you see today. If the universe was perfect we wouldn't be here...

Originally posted by Methuselah

there was no space....
i know that sounds realyl weird as hell, but, prior to the big bang... there was no space.

yeah thats does, but according to the big bang theory, matter and energy didnt exist either, the theory says that there was 'nothing'.
and 'nothing' cannot produce 'something' its theoretically impossible.
how can something from nothing be the cause of our own existence.

Umm energy did exist, so much energy it's not funny. That's how the bang came in.

Originally posted by Methuselah
plus you think God doesnt exist... what about the things that science cannot explain? like supernatural healing of any sort (heart starting to beat when it shouldnt, brain activity when brain should be dying, people living when their bodily condition doesnt support it) what about all of these things? how do you explain those?

You know science is ever growing right? And that nobody 200 years ago would even dream of something called cars. We might find the answers in 50 years time, maybe less. Kind of stupid when you say explain these things when there is so much unanswered by issues surrounding 'god' and so many flaws.

yes, because the revisions of science are based on evidence... the revisions of religion are based on whim.

Originally posted by Methuselah
no we find the laws and learn how they apply and how they support the theory. there is no conflict. the only big difference between creation and evolutionary theory is that the creation says that out of nothing, God created everything. and the evolutionary theory says that out of nothing (no time, space or matter) over billions of years, everything was created and formed.

Umm yeh, just like the Earth was round and everything orbited the Earth. When you say only difference, it is this difference which contradicts each other.

but you can't really find fault with modern science.

Originally posted by Methuselah
oh really? what about Ernest Haeckel and his drawings put in textbooks as facts and getting his sued for fraud? or what about Archaeopteryx? that was also a fraud. these were listed as factual evidences.

Again, science is not always perfect, but our knowledge continues to grow. It is based on what we see in our surroundings. Do you mean fraud or mistake?

science in its present state has no room left for a creator,

Originally posted by Methuselah
you know the more i look at his creation the more I believe and the more I realize that there has to be a creator.

Yet it inflicts with your 'suddenly created idea'.

no... see, god isn't even theoretical, god is hypothetical.

now, why should i have faith in your god over the countless other ones?
what science in the bible? a disc shaped earth? geocentrism? noah's ark?

i don't discredit the bible entire, it's just like any other book of myth, it contains good and bad, i just don't believe in any of it

the bible never says that the earth is disk shaped, it says 'circle of the earth', and why would people think that the earth is flat when the sun and the moon and just about everything is not?

and God is not hypothetical, he may be to you, but he is def something that exists.

Perfect? What universe are you living in? Science has proven that the universe is not perfect, and it is this lumpiness or imperfection which forms the stars and planets you see today. If the universe was perfect we wouldn't be here...

actually its the perfect conditions on this very planet that allows life to exist. God made everything perfect to begin with and man messed it up by sin.

Umm energy did exist, so much energy it's not funny. That's how the bang came in.

not according to the theory... you want that link again?


this doesnt sounds very scientific at all. you cant get something from nothing... it goes against the first law of TD.
"the origin of the universe from nothing need not be unlawful or unnatural or unscientific. In short, it need not have been a supernatural event."
www.fortunecity.com...

so we know from this site that the big bang theory is just a bed time story... and that all the matter and energy was condensed down to a dime. wow, scientists cant even compress a shirt into a dime.
"Once upon a time, 14 billion years ago, a cosmic explosion released an immense amount of heat and pressure. All the particles and energy in our universe, once confined to a space about the size of a dime, raced away from one another at tremendous speeds. As the hot particles cooled and continued to expand into space, matter formed and the stars and galaxies of our universe were born. And so, the story of our universe began… or did it?"
scienceline.org...

this site tries to explain and they fall on their face.
www.badastronomy.com...

oh and you gotta love this one. this says that everything came from nothing...
"Prior to that moment there was nothing; during and after that moment there was something: our universe."
"Prior to the singularity, nothing existed, not space, time, matter, or energy - nothing. So where and in what did the singularity appear if not in space? We don't know. We don't know where it came from, why it's here, or even where it is. All we really know is that we are inside of it and at one time it didn't exist and neither did we."
www.big-bang-theory.com...
also watch the videos on this site. good stuff. not biased, just facts.

there are probably a lot more out there, and none of them make sense. none of them use logic or science. they claim that something that only happens every 100 billion years throws scientific laws out the window in order for it to happen. thats bull! math and science go hand in glove and they govern the universe. you cant change that unless you have something supernatural outside of our three dimensions (time space and matter).

You know science is ever growing right? And that nobody 200 years ago would even dream of something called cars. We might find the answers in 50 years time, maybe less. Kind of stupid when you say explain these things when there is so much unanswered by issues surrounding 'god' and so many flaws.

yeah im sure they said the same thing about cars or flying, or airplanes, or going to outter space.

Umm yeh, just like the Earth was round and everything orbited the Earth.

bible never says this. if it does, show me and show me the version of bible you are reading from.

Again, science is not always perfect, but our knowledge continues to grow.

no science it always perfect, its the theories and the ideas that get thrown at science that are not perfect.