How can you honestly believe in God.

Yes-
i really do believe God created an amazingly PERFECT complex world somehow,
and
there are little details that are all essential to the delicate balance that
keeps everything working together
-And what do i know of exploding things in space......
maybe they are supossed to do that for reasons that i could not
begin to imagine
To err is human , my friend
GOD makes no mistakes!
since He is the creator of it all......how could anything done by him
be wrong?
He CREATED IT .....he made the rules, the whole idea, he made US - how
could we think we'd know how he coulda done it better????

AND, even if it is the worst - and falling apart, and even if we all
were tortured by failing living conditions-
I would actually still believe that i had been given a chance to exist
Which in my eyes,
is an awesome gift that should be enjoyed and i would believe that
i was made because He wanted me, & liked me....
not because he wanted me to suffer...
maybe i am naive ....
but i sure am happy
if i am wrong, well,
no harm done.....
at least i thought i was more important than i actually was til the day i died
believing in my God.

renee

So if god made no mistakes at all, the suffering of millions of people and other animals alike is a laughable game. The misery of many is in a gods brilliant plan of endless love for us. Sounds wonderful.

reply to post by I See You


Yes , millions suffer
millions also experience extreme joy , happiness
the miracle of creating a child and watching it grow

And who said that GOD'D plan is for us to love or whatever?

His plan has never been revealed to anyone.....anywhere
WE all have our theorys but,
we will never know

His Purpose for placing us her in satan's domain-
(here, yes, it does SUCK......)
has nothing to do with us as much as it has to do with
His not trusting our loyalty,
( after the apple thing)
THat was when we were transferred from a cool world
to hell
where we would exist for 2000 years
with the best con artist , manipulative ,evil temptation there is
......................satan...................
who he wanted to do his same brainwashing trip that was used to turn all those angels against God
so he could see which ones would stay true and strong and loyal
to Him
it is written that HE Is a jealous God
He Demands complete loyalty
or he will just leave you behind with the life that tempted you away...
here in hell
with your new boss for ever
(cuz once the 2000 yrs are up.....theres no more changing your mind)

So- i get it that you feel let down, but
there's really nothing better available .......
thats what we are trying to believe that we are working towards..

attacking creation does not prove evolution just because you dont understand the bible.

I want to know why this article along with many others says that there was nothing before the big bang. why they say that nothing made everything.
big-bang-theory.com...
it says that nothing existed. not time, space or matter or energy.

this goes against the first law of thermodynamics. you cant say that it can go against the laws of nature for some unnatural reason,... the big bang tried to explain how the universe came to be naturally without the intervention of a higher being the laws of nature govern the universe at all times.
its not a feasible theory.

please explain.

[edit on 25-8-2007 by Methuselah]

[edit on 25-8-2007 by Methuselah]

As a former altar boy and catholic zealot I have questioned everything of late.
I believe we are a prison planet of hard case souls trying to get it right. Of the other alien entities they are only allowed to interact with us on a limited basis. My belief is they have modified us, test us, abduct us at will.
I do believe in a big Kahuna, but I think he went mad. To allow this society to self implode in violence and hate. Mostly due to religious altercation. Mohammed, Jesus, Yahweh, Buddha etc. And we hate and we kill. This is most obviously a zoo farm. We are studied, we are manipulated. And the killing doesn't stop. I would rather die than kill. This is such a messed up planet, the gov's are are crooked, greed and corruption is everywhere. I believe we harness something special, a soul.
Which is hugely regarded and envied by other off earth races. I believe we have been manipulated hugely by alien races. But who made the aliens? There has to be some singularity God. Who started everything in motion. I feel like a zebra in a zoo. Watched, detained and manipulated.
Forgive my rant, but things just don't make any sense any more. My soul is weary, tired and saddened.

[Rightttttttt, but how is existence linked with a man up in the clouds?

My throughts of GOd aren't a Human existing inthe clods, or in heaven, or anything like that. That representation is man-made - aka the bible - "jesus will sit at teh right hand side fo the father, ie god., in the kingdom of heaven". the words" The heavens" has also been used to mean such as the sky.ie. "Look up into the heavens and tell me what you see?"

So heaven they represent god in human form as "god made us in his image", greeting us at teh pearly gates, lol.



But....in the beginning, when the Christinaty "boom" was happening, thats what it was...up in the sky...cos we knew no better. So if God was speaking to whoever wrote that tripe, then surely he gave him the right details? Must have been a bit vague then? Not to mention, the story of creation. Are you gonna sit there and tell me thats the most likely scenario? Puhhhhh-leasseee people.


The Bible is nothing more than a set of morals and laws by which to rule. Simple as that.

[edit on 31-7-2007 by 3_Libras]


Why do you hate Jesus?

no... see, god isn't even theoretical, god is hypothetical.

now, why should i have faith in your god over the countless other ones?
what science in the bible? a disc shaped earth? geocentrism? noah's ark?

i don't discredit the bible entire, it's just like any other book of myth, it contains good and bad, i just don't believe in any of it

Originally posted by Methuselah
the bible never says that the earth is disk shaped, it says 'circle of the earth', and why would people think that the earth is flat when the sun and the moon and just about everything is not?

Of course not now. You think they would still have it in there after they found out their wrong? What do you mean 'why would people think that the earth is flat when the sun and the moon and just about everything is not?'. Tell that to people 2000 years ago. Thanks to science we know that now.

Perfect? What universe are you living in? Science has proven that the universe is not perfect, and it is this lumpiness or imperfection which forms the stars and planets you see today. If the universe was perfect we wouldn't be here...

Originally posted by Methuselah
actually its the perfect conditions on this very planet that allows life to exist. God made everything perfect to begin with and man messed it up by sin.

So yours saying we messed up the whole universe by our sins? If the universe was perfect, then each matter would be same distance apart from each other therefore not coming in to form a star. Why doesn't Mars have life then? (Not sure if they found some yet ) Pretty sure no one sinned there.

Umm yeh, just like the Earth was round and everything orbited the Earth.

Originally posted by Methuselah
bible never says this. if it does, show me and show me the version of bible you are reading from.

Of course it wouldn't be todays one. They removed it aready. Not only was it in there, but the whole church burned anyone at the stakes who went against their views for 1400 years =.=. The idea the we were in the middle of the universe seem to fit with their view and how special we are. Nicholas Copernicus finally published his work on heliocentric model, but only when he died, so the church couldn't burn him.




[edit on 25-8-2007 by AncientVoid]

If the universe was perfect, then each matter would be same distance apart from each other therefore not coming in to form a star. Why doesn't Mars have life then? (Not sure if they found some yet ) Pretty sure no one sinned there.

since the bible does not mention anything about life on other planets, I would think that either there is none or that we shouldnt worry about it if there was.
and no, everything being the same distance apart doesnt make it possible for life to exist on this planet. the conditions set in place in our universe make it possible for life to exist on this planet.

life doesnt exist on mars because its conditions could not support life. and think, the difference between the conditions on earth and the conditions on mars really arent much different. and mars still cannot support life. mars cant even grow a tree even though it has a CO2 rich atmosphere, there is no water for the trees, no rain.

Of course it wouldn't be todays one. They removed it aready.

wow im glad you know exactly what was written and when it was edited.

and im still waiting for someone to explain that article. im still waiting for someone to explain how nothing produces something...

reply to post by jpm1602


I am feeling sad for your emptiness
I need you to tell me how i could begin to heal that hole in your soul
I am here-
that is from my heart....i know it sucks to be where your at
and though i have no answers
I do have the gift of soul healing
(i am not the best, or strongest...,far from it...
but i am )
renee

If the universe was perfect, then each matter would be same distance apart from each other therefore not coming in to form a star. Why doesn't Mars have life then? (Not sure if they found some yet ) Pretty sure no one sinned there.

Originally posted by Methuselah
since the bible does not mention anything about life on other planets, I would think that either there is none or that we shouldnt worry about it if there was.
and no, everything being the same distance apart doesnt make it possible for life to exist on this planet. the conditions set in place in our universe make it possible for life to exist on this planet.

life doesnt exist on mars because its conditions could not support life. and think, the difference between the conditions on earth and the conditions on mars really arent much different. and mars still cannot support life. mars cant even grow a tree even though it has a CO2 rich atmosphere, there is no water for the trees, no rain.

And you said the universe was perfect?

Of course it wouldn't be todays one. They removed it aready.

Originally posted by Methuselah
wow im glad you know exactly what was written and when it was edited.

and im still waiting for someone to explain that article. im still waiting for someone to explain how nothing produces something...

I'm no scientist and i'm sure if your statement is true, scientist are trying to figure it out. The amazing thing about life and science is it is not written in a book and you never know what to expect. You should use the same question on god. But i doubt anyone know the answer...

reply to post by jpm1602



I've felt that way before now.and when i question why would a god of love and compassion allow for life to carry on this way,i get the usual reply of,"well,if eve hadn't eaten from the tree after being forbidden...."

but if god is omnipotent then he knew that lucifer would fall.he knew eve would be corrupted etc etc.and we suffer because of the things god knew!! which makes me ask,if he knew,why let it happen.to angels as well as mankind? if he knew but did nothing is that because he didn't have the power to stop it? surely he could of stopped satan getting into the garden of eden!!

god has let all this suffering happen.yes or no?
simple answer yes.because its his "plan" his "will" and us lowly humans could never understand.
controversial answer.we were designed to be both good and evil.we are a creature of duality,just as god is,"""I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.""" (Isaiah 45:7)
everything in life has an opposite!

i would also like to point out,for those who take the bible literally,think on this....the bible has caused the suffering,punishment and enslavement of women for 1000's of years! nobody has been subjected to treatment like this longer than woman has! and you believe in it.your belief keeps that cycle alive and well in the world,and it is disgusting!!

believe in god,believe in the prophet jesus.but don't believe in a book of such corruption.find for yourself the true words of the saviour and you will see what i mean!!

I can't even read three pages into this thread without getting sick to my stomach. I'll always be baffled by Christian logic.

Originally posted by Hexidecimal
Why do you, those that do, believe in God?

You cannot prove he exists. I ".

Jeez,, you need a candle to see the sun? Even Einstein accepted the self evident proof of a master creator or God. Proof of God is all around us. Whether you want to believe the Judeo Christian answer or what, doesn't matter to me. It's just that if you are going to use biblical concepts as stable datum then you have to consider the answers to those questions you have concerning biblical accounts. Another words choose your weapon, science or faith.

Rather then write an entire thesis on Biblical documentation. Ostensibly you would rather look at the unique marvels of life and creation whether brought about by divine providence or darwinian dumbification.

IT ALL HAS TOO MUCH A SIGNATURE OF THE ARTIST THAT STARTED IT.

To prove to you there is a God is much like proving something where every bit of proof can't prove something you don't assume came from his handiwork. I can say look in the mirror? Yeah so. YOU are proof god exists. If you say that doesn't prove it then you are saying you don't believe God has anything to do with you. You just ARE.

Well then explain yourself to me.

If God didn't bring you about, then perhaps it is from that primordial soup from whence you came? That is even harder to prove, especially when you consider how helpless babies are. Since human infants can't raise themselves can't feed themselves then explain that to me.

I have no problem at all with you making a thread like this or that you fail to see nature and creation anything less then a grand design but rather a cosmic accident that just happens to work so well.

That for all of it to repeat itself would be like taking all the parts of a stealth fighter jet totally disassembled in a box. Then toss a bomb in the box and BANG! all the parts fly out and land in a perfectly functioning flyer.

Now say that COULD happen and seeing I have no concept of that but say it did. The question still remains even after that. What made it happen. As obvious to me something grand is before me in the form a a stealth fighter jet. You say see that jet? That proves God exists. I say no it doesn't . Because you don't believe that God had anything to do with it so God didn't do it. It JUST HAPPEND.

Yeah what are the odds a stealth fighter could be created without a planner a designer. Yet the human Brain which was merely an accident that merely rolled into some evolutionary state brought about that Jet Aircraft. You are amazed with the Jet that a human brain created or man. I am impressed with the brain that made it that God created. I can no more believe God didn't make something so magnificent then I could deny that the Jet Fighter also had a creator.

There is much more to prove the existence of a God and NOTHING to prove ther isn't. The Atheist as finite as he is in all the universe and as much as there is to be learned about life. To say that there is NO GOD unequivocally absolutley, one would have to be ALL KNOWING, OMNIPRESENT I.E GOD. Besides,, GOD doesn't believe in Athiests.

If you want to think we just live to die then, wouldn't you at least WISH ther was a GOD?

Just long enough to ask that GOD,,

"what was the point?"

I suggest that you are not an atheist but are perhaps agnostic and really would like someone to convince you that there is a GOD. Else why the question? Sure would make things easier on ya wouldn't it.

Atheists deny belief in GOD but cannot deny his existence.

Believing in GOD is a fairytale for dummy's?

Then I'm just glad I'm dumb enough

to believe it

-=[conspiriology]=-

[edit on 26-8-2007 by Conspiriology]

Originally posted by jakyll
the bible has caused the suffering,punishment and enslavement of women for 1000's of years!

Show me the passage where the Bible says for us to enslave woman and punish them.

SHOW ME.

I agree that such things were done in the name of the Bible but read song of soloman for the best example of just how the Bible says to treat woman and how to love them.

Man has done many things in the name of religion when religion preys on people (no pun). It's easy to see why it was used so much as a tool to manipulate. That isn't the Bibles doing. That was our own. You want to blame the treatment of woman on the bible? Better show me that.

While you at it, show me the passage where it says we should pay them less money? Not allow them to vote untill I guess that passage changed because now they can. The part where we should Rape them beat them?

It takes me approx 90 hours to read that thing,, all 66 books in it cover to cover. I don't recall anything saying to punish them and beat them be it for a day or a thousand years.

It's Baloney

Originally posted by Conspiriology

Show me the passage where the Bible says for us to enslave woman and punish them.

SHOW ME.

OK, here you go:

When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)

It tells a man how to go about selling his own DAUGHTER.

The Bible is full of evils like this, and it seems like only the unbelievers are able to find these passages. The believers either aren't aware that they exist, or are in denial, or say that these passages "don't count" because they're in the OT.

Originally posted by MajorMalfunction

Originally posted by Conspiriology

Show me the passage where the Bible says for us to enslave woman and punish them.

SHOW ME.

OK, here you go:

When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)

It tells a man how to go about selling his own DAUGHTER.

The Bible is full of evils like this, and it seems like only the unbelievers are able to find these passages. The believers either aren't aware that they exist, or are in denial, or say that these passages "don't count" because they're in the OT.

It is taken totally out of context. Don't just google "does the bible contradict itself?:" READ ALL OF IT

reply to post by Conspiriology




Female Births Get Penalty

"Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a woman have conceived seed, and born a man child: then she shall be unclean seven days; according to the days of the separation for her infirmity shall she be unclean." (Leviticus 12:2)

"But if she bear a maid child, then she shall be unclean two weeks, as in her separation: and she shall continue in the blood of her purifying threescore and six days." (Leviticus 12:5)

Notice here that if a woman bears a female child, her isolation must last twice as long as that if she gives birth to a male child!


Female Inferiority

"But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God." (I Corinthians 11:3)

"For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man. Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man." (I Corinthians 11:8-9)

1Cr 14:34.Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but [they are commanded] to be under obedience, as also saith the law.

1Cr 14:35.And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.


1Ti 2:9 .In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;

1Ti 2:10.But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.

1Ti 2:11.Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.

1Ti 2:12.But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

1Ti 2:13.For Adam was first formed, then Eve.

1Ti 2:14.And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

1Ti 2:15.Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.



Rape My Daughter

"Behold, here is my daughter a maiden, and his concubine; them I will bring out now, and humble ye them, and do with them what seemeth good unto you: but unto this man do not so vile a thing. But the men would not hearken to him: so the man took his concubine, and brought her forth unto them; and they knew her, and abused her all the night until the morning: and when the day began to spring, they let her go." (Judges 19:24-25)


Judges 19 describe a father who offers his virgin daughter to a drunken mob. When the father says "unto this man do not so vile a thing," he makes clear that sexual abuse should never befall a man (meaning him), yet a woman, even his own flesh and blood, or a concubine belonging to a perfect stranger, can receive punishment from men to do what they wish. This attitude against women still persists to this day and we have the Bible, in large part, to thank for this attitude against women.

Verse 25 describes the hours long gang rape of the poor concubine. The Bible gives not one hint of passion or concern for the raped girl. Considering that many people believe that every word in the Bible comes from God, it should not surprise anyone why people still use these verses to justify such atrocities.


Women's Sorrow

"Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee." (Genesis 3:16)


Not only does the Woman get blamed for the Fall, but God decides to multiply her sorrow, plus, she must submit to her husband like a slave.

Religionists have used this verse as justification and "reason" for the pain and punishment (sin) of childbirth and the sin of mankind. And to this day many Christians, Jews and Islamics place women lower then men in the ranking of Godly order. If ever there existed a more cruel justification against women, it could not have done as much damage as from belief in Genesis 3:16. Because of the belief in the Fall, countless Christians have branded the entire human race as depraved.


"Of the woman came the beginning of sin, and through her we all die." (Eccles. 25:22)

"A silent and loving woman is a gift of the Lord: and there is nothing so much worth as a mind well instructed. A shamefaced and faithful woman is a double grace, and her continent mind cannot be valued." (Eccles. 26:14-15)


And this is just a few!!

Originally posted by I See You
This is off topic a little bit but to make a point. Ligers may exist but they were made by MAN. A tiger and a lion have never mated in the natural wild. Men or women have made many things that are unnatural to the natural world and will continue to do so. Is this also considered creationism when man does it? I thought not.

What about a mule, a cross between a horse and donkey... thats man made. A mule is missing a chromosone so two mules wont reproduce.
Doesn't it say in the Summarian version of Adam and Eve (pre bible), that the adams and eves could not procreate but Enki (the snake, also a medical symbol) gave them this ability, to procreate... and that kinda made his brother mad. The storys are so alike, maybe we should be looking pre-bible to find answers about our spirituality and how we got here. The summarian Gods were from space, aliens.... Were we created in their image or Gods or both? Personaly, the bible speaks nothing to me of God, but may hold some valuable teachings in it, mainly the Jesus teachings.. like to find God within ourselves.

reply to post by Conspiriology



Thought i'd add these quotes too.mainly dealing with women who are classed as "whores" or "witches" in the eyes of men.

"And the daughter of any priest, if she profane herself by playing the whore, she profaneth her father: she shall be burnt with fire." (Leviticus 21:9)

"Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live. Whoever lieth with a beast shall surely be put to death. He that sacrificeth unto any god, save to the LORD only, he shall be utterly destroyed." (Exodus 22:18-20)


"A shameless woman shall be counted as a dog; but she that is shamefaced will fear the Lord." (Eccles.26:25)

"For from garments cometh a moth, and from women wickedness. Better is the churlishness of a man than a courteous woman, a woman, I say, which bringeth shame and reproach." (Eccles. 42:13-14)


"Samaria shall become desolate; for she hath rebelled against her God: they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up." (Hosea 13:16)


Throughout the Bible, God smites those who do not believe in him or those who do not follow his commands. Here we have the grotesque description of infants dashed to pieces and pregnant women ripped up. Whatever rebellious nature an infant's father or mother may have had, it bears no justice to an innocent child or to an unborn fetus who could not possibly have rebelled against God, much less understood him.

Anyone who claims to love such a God, must accept infanticide as one of God's ugly revenges.

reply to post by Conspiriology


I have. It's not taken out of context. You said show you where the bible says to do things to women. I showed you where it says a man can sell his daughter into slavery and the rules for that.

I'm sorry you don't like what you saw, but it's there.

I've read the bible and found it to be a horrifying piece of ancient literature written by primitive, misogynistic, tribe-oriented, genocidal men.

[edit to add:]

You also didn't originally say to read the whole bible, you said to show you a passage that said these things. I did so. If you didn't want to be shown a single passage that shows these evils you should not have asked for one.

[edit on 26-8-2007 by MajorMalfunction]