How can you honestly believe in God.

Originally posted by Methuselah
I guess you dont know the difference between Gods love and the devils agenda.

Gods love is unconditional, and giving.

is this the same god that kicked people out of a garden for eating some fruit? that's not unconditional love
is this the same god that flooded a whole planet and only saved a small group of people? that doesn't sound like god loved those people unconditionally
is this the same god that ordered a genocide against the middianites? where was god's love for them?
is this the same god that destroyed sodom and gomorroah? where was god's unconditional love for those?
is this the same god that killed every egyptian firstborn? does god's love not extend to the egyptians?

he devil uses, manipulates, lies and takes.

really? because there isn't much in terms of info on him...
and he did offer humanity something that we did need, knowledge of GOOD and evil.

its clear why someone would choose Jesus to be their savior.

yes, because they are living in a consistent delusion.

something interesting for those talking of satan defying god.if you read the book of enoch you will find something interesting....lucifer and many other angels pitied humans and the state we lived in.so they came to earth and gave us knowledge of many things,including fire,astronomy,medicine,farming,metal work.and of course god gets mad and sends lucifer and the other angels to hell.and then,only a few pages later,after banishing angels and punishing humans;he gives mankind exactly the same things as the fallen angels did!!! so,according to the book,there was no war in heaven.lucifer and the others were trying to help mankind.they believed they could give humans a better state of living.does that sound evil to you?? doesn't it sound heroic that these angels would defy god to help mankind??

[edit on 16-8-2007 by jakyll]

if you read the book of enoch you will find something interesting....

you know what I find interesting is that the book of enoch does not exist in the bible. read the book of revelation about adding to the bible and taking away from it. the bok of enoch doesnt exist and since enoch was such a Godly man, I dont think he would have written a book that contradicted scripture. He was so Godly he didnt have to die, God took him straight to heaven.

there are many books that do not appear in the bible,that does not mean they are false.look for the nag hammadi scrolls.you will find many works have been kept out of the bible.or some may have appeared in earlier editions,but were then removed.and yes,there is evidence that the bible has been changed.an example...in earlier bibles the meaning of the name barabas appeared.it was removed because ppl started to question which man was truly crucified.why? because the name barabas means son of god...and yes enoch was a godly man,but his book was never ment to be part of the bible.my point of talking about his work was to point out something very important that gets ignored.that the story of lucifer may have been corrupted over many many years to explain why there is such evil in the world.we all want to be able to point at a bogey man when something bad happens,do we not?

oh,and the book of enoch does exist.but i do not think he wrote it as a deliberate contradiction to the scriptures.the passage i mentioned stood out to me,that is all.it is not ment to be wicked,it is me wondering why there is such a strange turn of events in the book of man so loved by god.

Originally posted by Methuselah
He [enoch] was so Godly he didnt have to die, God took him straight to heaven.

What I find funny about this is Jesus was supposedly a godly man, in fact, he was supposedly god. Yet he had to die and a mere mortal was spared death for his godliness. Not only did Jesus have to die, but he did not get to return to heaven after dying but had to wander hades (some translations say hell) for the 3 days before his resurrection. Strangeness.

What I find funny about this is Jesus was supposedly a godly man, in fact, he was supposedly god. Yet he had to die and a mere mortal was spared death for his godliness. Not only did Jesus have to die, but he did not get to return to heaven after dying but had to wander hades (some translations say hell) for the 3 days before his resurrection. Strangeness.

ok you obviously dont know why Jesus Christ was meant to die. First of all, he chose to die for mankind to save man from himself. Jesus' purpose here on earth was to minister to us and die for our sins. thats why he came. he wasnt just another dude walking the earth trying to live a godly life. He had a purpose and that was to die for our sins. a perfect and clean sacrifice. and yes he did wander hates for 3 days before his resurrection. he had to in order to conquer death.

you are comparing apples and oranges.

and again the book of enoch does not exist in the bible so I doubt it was even written by enoch himself. him being such a godly man, I doubt he would have written something that would contradict the word of God.

"""and again the book of enoch does not exist in the bible so I doubt it was even written by enoch himself. him being such a godly man, I doubt he would have written something that would contradict the word of God."""

god never said there was a war in heaven,man did! the reason it isn't in the bible is because it was considered lost until the 17th century.and you can doubt the authors of all the books in the bible!! and no where in the bible does it describe a war in heaven.jesus himself claimed to be the morning star(lucifer)....Rev 22:16--""I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David,the bright and morning star...""

i don't believe in god,you may have noticed but i think every christian should read the book of enoch.it tells us more about god than most of the books in the bible and it has some stunning and beautiful imagery!

my first comment is my own interpretation on the text.if you read it you will see something else will you not? it is a powerful book and you should not be ignorant of it just because it doesn't appear in the bible!!

Originally posted by Hexidecimal
Why do you, those that do, believe in God?

You cannot prove he exists. I know there's going to be people that say, "Well, you can't prove he dosn't either". So? I guess then I'll worship Bigfoot, The Easter Bunny, The Loch Ness monster, or any other mythical beast. You can't prove they dont exist either. "Theres no proof it does or doesn't, so it exists." I guess Wizards, Giants, heck, even Lygars exist.


I think you may be confusing 3d earthly man made ideas. With the spirit realm, unless you don’t believe there is a spirit realm as well as our 3d world. Do you? Are there other realms other than our earthly 3d dimension?


Prove to me, your god. Why do you believe.


As you have said, one can not ‘prove’ the existence of God. That is something found through faith, something you lack. Brainiacs can’t understand God because their to full of themselves, yet they believe in a ‘big bang’. For a believer that theory and that’s all it is, is as unbelievable to us poor non-genius types as God is to you.

You say, giants didn’t or don’t exist? They exist today so it shouldn’t be that hard to believe they did years ago.


X0846

Originally posted by Methuselah
ok you obviously dont know why Jesus Christ was meant to die.

I was a practicing Christian for almost a decade before I converted to Agnostic/borderline Atheist. I have read the bible front to back at least 3 times. I have prepared and preached a few sermons for the largest church in my city. So about comparing apples to oranges. What father has his own son killed for things that he created, knowing they would fall away from him? I cannot trust a father who would kill his own perfect son to love/treat me decent. This god also predestines individuals whether they will become christians or not. So whether I believe or not is irrelevant because he controls it all anways. Plus, it says that narrow is the path and small is the gate that leads to salvation and many will be surprised when Jesus says be gone from me I knew you not. That means many of you christians will be rejected by your own god, even though you thought you had it right.

So please dont tell me I know nothing about this bible. I have read it more times than I care to remember. I wish I had never heard of this book, it has been a big hinderance in my recent attempts to be objective in the information I read.

Originally posted by Methuselah

if you read the book of enoch you will find something interesting....

you know what I find interesting is that the book of enoch does not exist in the bible. read the book of revelation about adding to the bible and taking away from it.

there was no biblical canon at the time of the writing of revelations. the meaning behind that passage is only applicable to the book of revelations.

Originally posted by ninthaxis

I was a practicing Christian for almost a decade before I converted to Agnostic/borderline Atheist. I have read the bible front to back at least 3 times. I have prepared and preached a few sermons for the largest church in my city. So about comparing apples to oranges. What father has his own son killed for things that he created, knowing they would fall away from him? I cannot trust a father who would kill his own perfect son to love/treat me decent. This god also predestines individuals whether they will become christians or not. So whether I believe or not is irrelevant because he controls it all anways. Plus, it says that narrow is the path and small is the gate that leads to salvation and many will be surprised when Jesus says be gone from me I knew you not. That means many of you christians will be rejected by your own god, even though you thought you had it right.

Let me ask if your denomination was lutheran. they do preach predestination, some were born to be saved, others not so.
When you say God killed his own son, Jesus chose to come here and he chose to die!!!
Let me also say that the bible says in Hebrews 6 that those who were made partakers in his spirit, if they backslide too much, that it were better for them not to have known the truth at all
Did you know that Charles Wesley, the brother of John, founder of the Methodist church, was a hym writer and preacher many years before being truly converted?

Jesus said "make sure of your salvation"!

So please dont tell me I know nothing about this bible. I have read it more times than I care to remember. I wish I had never heard of this book, it has been a big hinderance in my recent attempts to be objective in the information I read.

You can read the bible forever and not get anything out of it without fellowship with Jesus.(the writer) I used to half-heartedly read it and wonder what was it talking about.
Don't be a scoffer!

Oops, SORRY!,

It's not Lutheranism that holds predestination, but Calvinism
Please excuse.

I was at a non-denominational church. I had "genuine" faith in the Bible. I defended it adamantly to anyone who cared to discuss such things. I was sent off to college to study religion and theology. I believed with my whole being these things were true. Now I dont. The bible has many verses saying god predestined those who were to follow him, and it is asked if this is fair and the bible says, who are you to tell the potter what is to become of the clay he makes. If he chooses some for noble purposes or destruction we aren't suppose to question. That isn't someone/thing I am willing to believe has my best interest in mind.

well you (the clay) have to give God that power in your life in order for him to shape you.

but to answer the original question, I am going to answer that a few questions.

How can you honestly believe in God.

Why do you, those that do, believe in God?

You cannot prove he exists. I know there's going to be people that say, "Well, you can't prove he dosn't either". So? I guess then I'll worship Bigfoot, The Easter Bunny, The Loch Ness monster, or any other mythical beast. You can't prove they dont exist either. "Theres no proof it does or doesn't, so it exists." I guess Wizards, Giants, heck, even Lygars exist.

Perhap's we live in a Simulated Universe. It's highly possible. With the way technology is advancing, Perhaps the real year is the year 3000, and technology is so advanced, that we cannot tell it's virtual, and we beleive we are in the year 2007. You can't tell me I'm wrong, and I can't say im right. There's no evidence for either.

As with my discussion on Shelley yates, I'm going to state the same point. Religion Sells. Someone, perhaps not even 100's of years ago, wrote the bible. They sold it to make money, as it was a good story, and people, either intentional or not, took it as a religion. There is no proof it was written when it says it was. The Bible says it was written then, but that dosn't make it right. "Scriptures written back then say it was written then." So someone primitive wrote down some ideas, and someone later in time make a book out of them. Doesn't mean it was.

Prove to me, your god. Why do you believe.

If God does not exist, if there is not a higher power... if we are the product of millions of years of random chemical reactions....

How do you tell right from wrong?

who is to say that I cant kill someone when they wrong me?
who is to say what they did to me was wrong?
who is to say that committing adultery is wrong?
who is to say that curse words are wrong?
who is to say that I cant take something from someone because I want it?
who has the power to make the rules if God doesnt exist?
who has the power to lay down the law if God doesnt exist?
how do you know what is right and what is wrong?

History shows us that MAJORITY OPINION has been wrong, not just once but many times. even in the bible where the majority decided to not follow Gods plan, everything fell apart. there are a few examples in the bible that show majority opinion is not something you can rely on.

yes I know the system we have right now, we follow what congress thinks is best because we simply cant do anything about it. well we could move to another country but that probably not an option to most of us. we have people of power making the laws, but what is that based on? they tried taking the 10 commandments out of the courthouse so its definitely not based on that.

yeah we might think that those laws are a good idea, but if God doesnt exist who is to say that those laws are feasible? who is to say that I have to follow those? who are you to say that I am wrong when I steal or when I lie?

Unless there is a God, unless there is a higher power, there is no way to tell right from wrong. there is no law-giver if God doesnt exist.

by the way, who made gravity? we dont even know what gravity really is, we know what it does. the same thing with light. and what about the universe? the universe is huge! it has been said to be infinite, how far does it go? what is outside of the universe?

these few things if you just think about them you will realize that God has to exist. there is no way that he cant exist. its obvious he does.

"""How do you tell right from wrong?

who is to say that I cant kill someone when they wrong me?
who is to say what they did to me was wrong?
who is to say that committing adultery is wrong?
who is to say that curse words are wrong?
who is to say that I cant take something from someone because I want it?
who has the power to make the rules if God doesnt exist?
who has the power to lay down the law if God doesnt exist?
how do you know what is right and what is wrong?"""


This can be a question of morals as well as faith.many ppl have been raised in a non-relgious home,but they still know right from wrong.everything comes down to circumstance and interpretation.if you and your family were starving,would stealing food be wrong?? if you were in a marriage were your husband was a drunk who beat you constantly,would it wrong to go to another man who respects you and cares for you?? as for killing.the commandment is actually,"thou shall not commit murder." not "thou shall not kill." these are 2 very different things.

How are you gonna talk to Christians and tell them to "prove" God, when that would be discrepant with the Christian religion. Did you even think this through before asking it?

If a Christian could "prove" God, there would be no free will which is what their whole faith is based upon. You are in the exact same mindframe as a Christian, except when they say without a doubt "there is a God", you say "there is NOT a God". You are all using the same reasoning.

Originally posted by highfreq
So I ask you. How can you honostly NOT believbe in a God.
Nobody wins in this conversation. I can't prove to you God exists and you can't prove to me He doesn't. Can you?

If god does exist, then why is the world so corrupted? Why does the poor suffer and innocent people die? Is this what you call god existing?

Another point, Jesus is meant to die for your sins right? Then why do they say you goto hell for a sin? This is a paradox.

How and were did the stories of the bible come from? If it is the unseening we beleive in.

[edit on 19-8-2007 by AncientVoid]

Methuselah...

I am having serious doubts that you have ever examined your own faith honestly.

Jesus said that right is doing what you would like to have done to yourself...to treat others with the same respect you wish bestowed upon yourself. Following that law is THE ONLY TRUE MORAL of the "Christianity". (I put Christianity in quotes because it is exceedingly clear that Jesus never meant for there to be a religion in his name.)

That being said, I believe this live and let live idea is not something exclusive to religion, and definitely not something graciously given from GOD to men.

**** God's morals. The Bible shows that God is a vengeful, angry, and spiteful being. I prefer to follow what his so-called Son said, discounting this sick, messed up SAVAGE the Bible calls our Lord.

[edit on 19-8-2007 by iceofspades]

all i can say is that for a very long time people thought the world was flat and because the masses believed it, was taken as truth---until it was proven diffrent

you can pretty much say we know as much about the universe and the workings of the cosmos as those people who believed the world was flat-we are told by "experts"-that this works that way,or this is like that--but really we are just guessing and basing our knowledge on completely unproven anything-and just assuming we are right for now-so we all believe in our science of today.

you will never answer the god question-it is a matter of personal faith-i was a athiest for most of my life stating there is no proof-or prove to me there is a guy sitting on a throne,floating around in the clouds making sure i do right--thats just crazy..

all i know now is that-the more i look around-the more i see that the odds of all this just falling into place is a insane notion-there is a grand design--who was behind it?-i dont know all i do know is that there is something behind this--is it based off a book written by a number of diffrent people at diffrent times,who were basically writers and writing a good and compelling story as writers do..i doubt it--its bigger--not to bang the bible-but bethlem was deemed a holy place because a guy fell asleep in the desert and "DREAMED" that angels were ascending a ladder??and he called it holy Bethlem..so who knows..

people are gonna believe what they believe-and if they want to believe in something that has caused the death of so many and started how many wars-and misery------oh and lets not forget "send your money to god,heres my address""---if there is a modern god in this country its money-it even says it in the bills-"in god we trust"---should be more like in money we trust cause when it comes down to it---why in the hell is a peice of paper worth anything--its like we are all under a spell that makes us believe a little peice of paper is actually worth whats printed on it---thats flipping crazy

but anyway back to god-all i know is i do believe in something bigger-i always come back to -why would there be so many colors and buety-if it all just made itself???thanks for the read and rant