Are '9-11 by Muslim Extremists' racists?

Excelent OP, Spoodily! Without first reading the whole thread (it's late)

Originally posted by Spoodily
Why do so many people want to believe that terrorists within our own government and their associates around the world aren't responsible for the events of 9-11?

Why does the 'anti-truth' movement want Muslim extremists to be the guilty party so badly?

Well, there is supposed to be some actual evidence, and I can't rule it all out by any means. Tho I highly doubt the Mohammedan menace had tentacles into NORAD, FAA, NMCC, and the White House, where an inexplicable string of synchronzed defense failures opened the window to the event. Anyway...

Why is it such a far-fetched idea that there were terrorists involved in the attacks of 9-11, but they are not part of the groups that are being blamed? (If those groups even exist as described. Defending your country from invaders does not make you a terrorist- the US fought the British off of our soil before.)

It's certainly true that violence and oppression helps drive what we generally call terrorists, and thus sets up a self-fulfilling propchecy and self-justifying state of generational warfare. Terrorism as we know it is largely the poor man's warfare. It goes for what it can hit, and then melts away. Remember our own revolutionary soldiers were called terrorists, or the equivalent word at the time, for adopting non-traditional guerilla warfare tactics, sneaking up and whatnot.

Why have we bought into so many lies that the United States government has given us for a war against Iraq that never had any truth behind them?

I would rather believe that the United States and the people that have enough money and power to change the world, and the means to pull off such an attack, be responsible for the 9-11 attacks on America. They are certainly getting everything they could have possibly wanted as a result of them.

Motive, means, opportunity.

I doubt "Bin Laden" (being code for whatever enemy actually perpetrated 9/11) ever thought the US would curl up and surrender from a 9/11 type mass, symbolic, non-strategic blow. It almost seems in fact he wanted to provoke the US. There is much evidence that the US wanted to be provoked. Somehow it just all lined up. I don't know, that feels pretty spooky to me right there...

ETA: OH and regarding your original Q: Is it racist to say Muslim extremists did it? No, as Muslim isn't a race. The way it plays out is largely along racial lines, as we're dealing mostly with Arab Muslims (Persians soon?), and the WOT has certainly got such a reputation in the Muslim world, which also helps feed the cycle. I think there are some racists helping steer the response, tho I care not to name names.

[edit on 18-6-2007 by Caustic Logic]

sorry spoodily.....

There were many floors of the WTC that were empty and not being rented out. They were constantly moving peope's office space from one floor to another. Not long before 9-11 they sent out a short notice about a total power outage they were going to have to do for maintenance.

that is a tremendous amount of BS...........that never happened.

When making extremely BS statements you should atleast provide a link to some proof of them.

The WTC was on the power grid, not only that, the WTC had it's own back-up diesel generators. In order for the WTC to be 'powered down' it would of affected all on downtown.

WHERE DO YOU PEOPLE COME UP WITH THESE THINGS?!?

I hate posting videos over having a discussion but this video covers a few of the talking points in this thread.

Viacom has destroyed people's ability to think and attention spans.



[edit on 6/18/2007 by Spoodily]

Originally posted by ferretman2

WHERE DO YOU PEOPLE COME UP WITH THESE THINGS?!?

I didn't make it up, a guy that worked there said it. I am sure they can turn the power of to the building if they want to, it's called a breaker box.

Have you ever thought of the possibility that some of the floors were leased by people involved in WTC's demolition?

You apologize as if that proves terrorists were actually involved and that my feelings are hurt. The only person you are hurting by not investigating this crime is you, your family and their future.

I do ask that you read through the entire thread as we had a pretty good discussion about many points. Repetition is only drawing away from the main discussion points.

BTW, care to answer any of the Opening Post's questions?

Here is a recap on one of the posts, had you bothered to read through the entire thread.

Originally posted by Spoodily
Assuming that there was nothing more involved in 9-11 than four hijacked planes and physical strikes against each twin tower and the pentagon, where is the proof that the hijackers were who they claimed they were?

In a scenario with no outlandish 'conspiracy theories', nothing more than a cut and dry terror plot, who is to say this was nothing more than a modern day Boston Tea Party (framing a group of people by assuming their identity and commiting a crime in their likeness)?

There is no background of who those hijackers were or who they were truly working for. No one really bothered to ask, we just accepted what we were told. They could have been pawns in the whole thing, but they met someone else's agenda well above that of 'radical Islam'. There was not much of an inquiry or criminal investigation as to who really commited these crimes. The war drums started pounding and the US people wanted retaliation against someone. They used our anger against us to blindly support a plan that benefited the true terrorists more than it did the American people.

There are more blurry frames of Atta walking through an airport terminal than of the supposed plane that hit the pentagon (they have yet to show us a video of a plane, there are cameras all over that area. I attended my grand-parents funeral at Arlington before and after 9-11 and asked the funeral director what he saw that day, he pointed away from the pentagon and said the plane clipped some power lines before passing over the cemetary, what report is that in? You could clearly see the hole in the pentagon from their plot.). We blindy took the scraps they handed us and ran into supporting a strategically laid out plan that we weren't fully aware of.

We bought into one scenario that ended up getting us sold another. The outcome and aftermath of 9-11 ran like clockwork with all the pieces conveniently falling into place for this 'new world order' to take shape.

[edit on 6/18/2007 by Spoodily]

Why do so many people want to believe that terrorists within our own government and their associates around the world aren't responsible for the events of 9-11?

Why does the 'anti-truth' movement want Muslim extremists to be the guilty party so badly?

I find that unfair. I am not an adherent to the theories of the 9/11 truth movement. But nor do I have some overriding need to believe that Muslims or anyone else committed 9/11. I have defended Islam as a religion in many other places on this site. And the majority who do believe that terrorists caused 9/11 are not necessarily racist against Muslims. The debate does not need to move in this direction.

Originally posted by Togetic

Why do so many people want to believe that terrorists within our own government and their associates around the world aren't responsible for the events of 9-11?

Why does the 'anti-truth' movement want Muslim extremists to be the guilty party so badly?

I find that unfair. I am not an adherent to the theories of the 9/11 truth movement. But nor do I have some overriding need to believe that Muslims or anyone else committed 9/11. I have defended Islam as a religion in many other places on this site. And the majority who do believe that terrorists caused 9/11 are not necessarily racist against Muslims. The debate does not need to move in this direction.

It's not fair that we have been told who to accuse as guilty without a proper investigation and the only reports being put out are being printed by the real terrorists.

I'm not saying Muslims, I am saying 'Muslim extremists' and 'radical Islamists', which denotes a certain group of people from a certain part of the world, not a religion. The media uses these phrases in heavy repitition. Why?

We send troops to Iraq and have them killed only to fan the flames of hate for this group of people. Those people are defending their homeland from an unjust US invasion. Why are we even in Iraq?

[edit on 6/18/2007 by Spoodily]

Originally posted by Spoodily
It's not fair that we have been told who to accuse as guilty without a proper investigation and the only reports being put out are being printed by the real terrorists.

I'm not saying Muslims, I am saying 'Muslim extremists' and 'radical Islamists', which denotes a certain group of people from a certain part of the world, not a religion. The media uses these phrases in heavy repitition. Why?

I understand what you are saying, and I even understand why you are frustrated. But I am addressing a narrow point: I don't think that just because one thinks that terrorists brought down the towers that one is immediately racist against Muslims.

As to the repetition question, I don't understand what is being implied. I don't think that there has been an overwhelming shift in perception against Muslims. There has not been a significant increase in hate crimes. Sure, there are stupid people out there, there always will be. But that does not mean that everyone agrees with the stupid people.

Originally posted by Togetic
I understand what you are saying, and I even understand why you are frustrated. But I am addressing a narrow point: I don't think that just because one thinks that terrorists brought down the towers that one is immediately racist against Muslims.

As to the repetition question, I don't understand what is being implied. I don't think that there has been an overwhelming shift in perception against Muslims. There has not been a significant increase in hate crimes. Sure, there are stupid people out there, there always will be. But that does not mean that everyone agrees with the stupid people.

Do you know and regularly associate with people of Middle-Eastern/Asian descent? I do, and yes it does have an affect on their lives. The only thing people hear about this group is what the media tells them to think, and that is promoting racism.

Spoodily -

I didn't make it up, a guy that worked there said it. I am sure they can turn the power of to the building if they want to, it's called a breaker box.

Quite convenient 'a guy that worked there said it'..........the moon is made of green cheese....do you know that....

antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov...

Do you know what it would take to shut off power at the trade center? It is alot more complex than flipping a switch on a breaker box.

It doesn't happen, there were to many financal companies and others which operated 24 hours a day. It would have been a MAJOR undertaking, and downtown would have known.

The trade center did not just consist of the towers and WTC 7 there were many other buildings also which would have been affected.

I call BS on this one...............


[edit on 18-6-2007 by ferretman2]

Originally posted by ferretman2
Spoodily -

I didn't make it up, a guy that worked there said it. I am sure they can turn the power of to the building if they want to, it's called a breaker box.

Quite convenient 'a guy that worked that said it'..........the moon is made of green cheese....do you know that....

antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov...

Do you know what it would take to shut off power at the trade center? It is alot more complex than flipping a switch on a breaker box.

It doesn't happen, there were to many financal companies and others which operated 24 hours a day. It would have been a MAJOR undertaking, and downtown would have known.

The trade center did not just consist of the towers and WTC 7 there were many other buildings also which would have been affected.

I call BS on this one...............

I seriously hope you are not dwelling on that one instance and impeding a thorough investigation. Some facts may carry more weight than others.

You are only jeopardizing yourself and many other people by not asking questions and looking for answers.

'the moon is made of green cheese....do you know that....'

People that make jokes are clowns. This issue is extremely serious. I am no longer taking you that way.

Originally posted by Spoodily
Do you know and regularly associate with people of Middle-Eastern/Asian descent? I do, and yes it does have an affect on their lives.

I do not have any Muslim friends. But I do not foreclose ever having any. Just through happenstance I haven't met any.

The only thing people hear about this group is what the media tells them to think, and that is promoting racism.

I am not denying that it doesn't. I can only speak for myself, and I am not trying to be belligerent. But I am curious to know if you sincerely think that just because someone thinks that terrorists committed 9/11 that they are necessarily racist against Muslims?

[edit on 6/18/2007 by Togetic]

Spoodily - I refer back to one of you initial postings in this thread:

Sometimes you just have to know when to call BS also.

That halogram and other the other really out there stuff is garbage. Don't go digging through a pile of trash and then act as if you're going to find anything except trash.

There were many floors of the WTC that were empty and not being rented out. They were constantly moving peope's office space from one floor to another. Not long before 9-11 they sent out a short notice about a total power outage they were going to have to do for maintenance. The short notice really made some businesses that were renting space in the WTC mad because they weren't provided with enough fore notice to make sure their computers were adequately backed up (these were financial companies that operated 24-7 after all). The opportunities were numerous to rig the building up for demolition.

They apparently didn't need too much demolition gear either since everyone believes an airplane could have accomplished the same thing.

*bold added by me

You stated as 'FACT' the bold portion of the above quote, not 'some guy told me'. Stating it as fact is wrong and some on this board will accept that as FACT without actually realize it could not be farther than the truth.

You have the nerve to be 'accusing' others which do not believe the 'Truthers' stories as 'Anti-truthers' then you post FALSE FACTS?!?

The ATS Motto is DENY IGNORANCE - before you post another statement as FACT when is really is he said/she said you should really note it so others do not mis-understand.

My poor attempt at humor was to demonstrate that just about anything can be found of the internet but it does not make it fact.

Originally posted by ferretman2
sorry spoodily.....

that is a tremendous amount of BS...........that never happened.

When making extremely BS statements you should atleast provide a link to some proof of them.

There are links, tho I'm not sure it counts as proof:
According to World Independent News Group, the power was cut to the upper floors of Tower 2 (floors 48 and above) in an unprecedented “power-down” that left all the building's electrical functions inoperable. This was supposed to be for a cabling upgrade to increase the WTC’s computer bandwidth. Scott Forbes, a senior database administrator for Fiduciary Trust, Inc., told WING's Voctor Thorn:

Forbes stated that Fiduciary Trust was one of the WTC’s first occupants after it was erected, and that a “power-down” had never been initiated prior to this occasion. He also stated that his company put forth a huge investment in time and resources to take down their computer systems due to the deliberate power outage. This process, Forbes recalled, began early Saturday morning (September 8th) and continued until mid-Sunday afternoon (September 9th) – approximately 30 hours. As a result of having its electricity cut, the WTC’s security cameras were rendered inoperative, as were its I.D. systems, and elevators to the upper floors.

Forbes did stress, though, that there was power to the WTC’s lower floors, and that there were plenty of engineers going in-and-out of the WTC who had free access throughout the building due to its security system being knocked out. In an e-mail to journalist John Kaminski, author of The Day America Died (Sisyphus Press) and America’s Autopsy Report (Dandelion Books), Forbes wrote: “Without power there were no security cameras, no security locks on doors, and many, many ‘engineers’ coming in and out of the tower.”

Thorn, Victor. “Pre-9/11 World Trade Center Power-Down.” World Independent News Group. April 23, 2004. Accessed Jnuary 28, 2005 at: 69.28.73.17...

So anyway, he didn't make this up.

Originally posted by Spoodily
Why do so many people want to believe that terrorists within our own government and their associates around the world aren't responsible for the events of 9-11?

Because there is no solid evidence that suggests it.

Why does the 'anti-truth' movement want Muslim extremists to be the guilty party so badly?

I've never heard of such a group.

Why is it such a far-fetched idea that there were terrorists involved in the attacks of 9-11, but they are not part of the groups that are being blamed?

It's not far fetched, it's just theres no evidence for it.

Why have we bought into so many lies that the United States government has given us for a war against Iraq that never had any truth behind them?

Because the general citizenry of America are too apathetic to actively seek impeachment. Bitching on a blog is about as far as they'll go.

I would rather believe that the United States and the people that have enough money and power to change the world, and the means to pull off such an attack, be responsible for the 9-11 attacks on America. They are certainly getting everything they could have possibly wanted as a result of them.

Who are they and what have they getting as a result?

[edit on 6/17/2007 by Spoodily]

So a witness statement is not credible?

If Forbe's statement is false, then he should be put on trial for impeding justice, I agree. Has he been arrested? No.

[edit on 6/18/2007 by Spoodily]

Originally posted by CaptainLazy

Who are they and what have they getting as a result?

A private (soon to go public, European Union and North American Union are the start) world government and total control. The United States grants us 'freedom', it does not apply when a new government is in control of our government.

Originally posted by ferretman2
Spoodily - I refer back to one of you initial postings in this thread:

You stated as 'FACT' the bold portion of the above quote, not 'some guy told me'. Stating it as fact is wrong and some on this board will accept that as FACT without actually realize it could not be farther than the truth.

You have the nerve to be 'accusing' others which do not believe the 'Truthers' stories as 'Anti-truthers' then you post FALSE FACTS?!?

The ATS Motto is DENY IGNORANCE - before you post another statement as FACT when is really is he said/she said you should really note it so others do not mis-understand.

My poor attempt at humor was to demonstrate that just about anything can be found of the internet but it does not make it fact.

Originally posted by Spoodily
Sometimes you just have to know when to call BS also.

That halogram and other the other really out there stuff is garbage. Don't go digging through a pile of trash and then act as if you're going to find anything except trash.

There were many floors of the WTC that were empty and not being rented out. They were constantly moving peope's office space from one floor to another. Not long before 9-11 they sent out a short notice about a total power outage they were going to have to do for maintenance. The short notice really made some businesses that were renting space in the WTC mad because they weren't provided with enough fore notice to make sure their computers were adequately backed up (these were financial companies that operated 24-7 after all). The opportunities were numerous to rig the building up for demolition.

They apparently didn't need too much demolition gear either since everyone believes an airplane could have accomplished the same thing.

I just use 'anti-truther' because '9-11 by Muslim Extremists' just takes too long. That, and they are opposed to the 'truth' movement. It just works out to be 'anti-truth'. Go figure.

Ferret,

You conveniently left out the last section of my post when you quoted me. You have just been denied.

[edit on 6/18/2007 by Spoodily]

Originally posted by Spoodily
So a witness statement is not credible?

If Forbe's statement is false, then he should be put on trial for impeding justice, I agree. Has he been arrested? No.

[edit on 6/18/2007 by Spoodily]

One witness in a building of thousands and not one will back him of his claims up.

And I'm not sure that's how the justice system works. You can't send someone down for just being wrong.

Originally posted by CaptainLazy

Originally posted by Spoodily
So a witness statement is not credible?

If Forbe's statement is false, then he should be put on trial for impeding justice, I agree. Has he been arrested? No.

[edit on 6/18/2007 by Spoodily]

One witness in a building of thousands and not one will back him of his claims up.

And I'm not sure that's how the justice system works. You can't send someone down for just being wrong.

Yea, that and 3000 of them are dead.

[edit on 18-6-2007 by ferretman2]