And if Ron Paul Loses...

Originally posted by NGC2736


But perhaps a middle ground could be achieved. Maybe what we need is a national paid holiday for voting, but that is only paid when voting is proved. Thus there would be an incentive to vote.

Paying people to vote would make a mockery of our system. Can you imagine the typical "Man on the Street" interview on election day..."Who di you vote for, and why? "I don't remember who I voted for, I just did it for the money."

The extreme opposite, making people pay to vote, would generate much better results. That way you are not only voting, but you are making an investment at the same time!

As far as Ron Paul, I'm still amused that a candidate that has a zero percent chance of winning, is getting all this attention.

His candidacy is equivalent to someone like Carol Mosely Braun who ran 4 years ago. Someone who is just there for no reason.

I (gasp) found myself actually agreeing with you for once RR (must be because I just woke up from a catnap and am not thinking clearly) until you started belittling Ron Paul's candidacy. Even if he doesn't have a snowballs chance in hell of winning, he has the right to be there and the right to be heard.

I was just throwing out ideas to get more voter turnout. But paying to vote would have an even greater negative effect. What about the poor and elderly? If you're having to choose between food and medicine, I doubt voting has much chance in the pile.

And that would really make a whole new level for buying votes!

Originally posted by RRconservative
The extreme opposite, making people pay to vote, would generate much better results. That way you are not only voting, but you are making an investment at the same time!

Amendment XXIV

Section 1. The right of citizens of the United States to vote in any primary or other election for President or Vice President, for electors for President or Vice President, or for Senator or Representative in Congress, shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or any state by reason of failure to pay any poll tax or other tax.

Section 2. The Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.

Unconstitutional. Discriminatory. Anti-republican. (No, not the party.)

I'm a little scared that someone would actually consider such a terrible thing.

Johnmike, I didn't bother with pointing out the fact that this idea of paying to vote was unconstitutional. The old so called 'conservatives' seem to not really care about that particular item.

Originally posted by NGC2736
Johnmike, I didn't bother with pointing out the fact that this idea of paying to vote was unconstitutional. The old so called 'conservatives' seem to not really care about that particular item.

Yes, but you did bring up paying people to vote. All I was doing was illustrating absurdity by being absurd.

We also pay them to eat turkey. And to sing carols about a mythical Kris Kringle.

So?

despite whether Ron Paul loses, hes still a good precision knife to cut open the cancerous truth that the mainstream losers (hijackers) are all corrupt lazy greedy whoremongering wife abusing country using sluts.

Originally posted by RRconservative
Yes, but you did bring up paying people to vote. All I was doing was illustrating absurdity by being absurd.

It wasn't me who said it and I never accused you of supporting it. I've heard similar things (said seriously), and it's always been equally terrifying.

Guys, you already get paid holidays, and these are recognized by the government. You get your regular paycheck for that day, even though you don't work. If a national election day was set aside, it could work the same way. All I would say is that to qualify, you would have to prove you used that day for the intended purpose.

This is not that radical of an idea. Many companies do not dock workers for taking time off to go vote, so in essence they are being paid to vote. The armed forces give time off to vote.

If we as a nation do not find ways to encourage people to vote, or penalize them if they don't, then the day will come when 5% of America votes for the President.

I'm not saying this is the only idea worth trying, but we do need to think of something to turn this nation around.

Originally posted by RRconservative
The extreme opposite, making people pay to vote, would generate much better results. That way you are not only voting, but you are making an investment at the same time!

They can't even count votes correctly as it is, no way I'm gonna pay to have my vote thrown away.

As far as Ron Paul, I'm still amused that a candidate that has a zero percent chance of winning, is getting all this attention.

Aren't you contradicting yourself? The more attention a candidate gets, the better his chances are. I think it's about time the public gets a candidate they want. I highly doubt his chances of winning are zero, as you so optimistically put it.

Ron paul is the only candidate I know of preaching foreign non-intervention policies. I for one am tired of fighting pointless wars that drag on and on with no end in sight.

Grover you just puked up what I have been saying in your responce post #2. There is a big red line between a real leader (MLK, Ghandi) and those who are ruses in short dictators, kings, emerors, etc. Apparently you never realized that. Again, MLK and Ghandi set out to lead people in a revolt, thus they became leaders. If you just read what I have said an think about it you would realize you are reitterating what I am saying and getting hostile over nothing. So Grover, since you are not listening, I am not going to waste my time.
Also, your attitude reflects what I say to you.


Well it looks like a few posts here and there got this thread to liven up a tad. As I have stated politicians are beurocrats. Plain and simple, thus we need leaders not politicians. I think we all know what the chances are of a leader actually being elected into office right now: zilch, zero, 0. Why? Well someone else summed this up last year on ATS when someone challanged them to run for office if they hated the system so much and refused to leave the USA (just like me):
"My wife asked me the same thing once and I told her: If I was to run for office, I would be dead before the prelimanaries." The elites and their puppets (also known as false leaders as Justin pointed out) have no quams about putting down anyone who gets close. That is obviouse if you look around the world, anyone of concequence to them was taken out or is in the process of. From this we get the predicament we are in, and JKF summed it up very well with one sentece: "The three things you need to be president are: money, money and money." Well that rules out 99% of the USA right off the bat.
As for voting, voting is futile, again I quote some random member on ATS: "Ah! What luck! Fascism you can vote for!" You get to choose between two ruling "parties" in the USA who are one and the same, all you are voting on is which face you want, gender (maybe) and which way you want to be screwed over. That is the total breakdown of things.

Now here is the last question: are any of you willing to risk everything to fix the system? Think that one over and remember it the day you are given a chance to do something meaningful, because nothing is going to change by talking about it on ATS.

Since you find me such a bore for not listening to you, go find another thread to derail and leave the rest of us to discuss Ron Paul and his chances.

Actually I should apologize for not paying attention to ALL of your posts but after the first one it was obvious that you were so self important that you would pick up the slack... and I was right.


[edit on 17-6-2007 by grover]

Originally posted by grover
Short of gutting our whole system and starting over I don't see any way forward, and I fear it is even too late for that.

What I see a lot of people talking about (both in ATS & a lot of other places) is a direct result of the fact that you have the Right & Civil Obligation to do so!
Take note of this quote frome the Declaration of Independence:

That to secure these Rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just Powers from the Consent of the Governed, that whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these Ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its Foundation on such Principals, and organizing its Powers in such Form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

Bold emphasis is mine...Mainly because this has already been done countless times throughout human history.

The US Founding Forefathers took several steps to get the English Crown to listen...
First, they stood up & spoke up, according to the signed agreement of Laws, as set forth in the Magna Carta. As they spoke up, they set forth (in writing) what their specific grievances were against the King's actions against that signed agreement.

Second, they used peaceful protest by refusing to pay taxes, just to make sure that the King would really hear & listen to them. This is why they wrote (later):

“If money is wanted by Rulers who have in any manner oppressed the People, they may retain it until their grievances are redressed, and thus peaceably procure relief, without trusting to despised petitions or disturbing the public tranquility.”

Journals of the Continental Congress (1774),
1:105-113

It's at this stage that the (in)famous Boston Tea Party was turning from peaceful protest into semi-violent (meaning that violence was directed at property, not people yet) protest.

Third, when the King sent troops to enforce his Will (against his signed Agreement), that's when the Founding Fathers took up arms in defense. Part of their success in throwing off the King's continuing oppressions lies in the fact that it was quite expensive to keep sending troops across the ocean in great numbers.

One of the major differences in these modern days is that I've seen indications that the modern oppressors of The People are already here & must be rooted out before we can get rid of them. The very same "English Charters" (& many more from other mostly-European origins) that helped the King oppress the People have infiltrated their way into intimate control of the very government that they've been plotting to destroy for the past several generations.

One of the main purposes of the Constitution was to ensure that such "Charters" were kept under tight reign by the government & to limit the government on precisely how much it would govern!

As Ben Franklin has been quoted, "We gave you a Republic, if you can keep it."
We've lost it, a long time ago...To a Democracy--A form of government that our Founding Fathers actually feared as much as we "moderns" came to fear Communism. Now, it's more like a Corporate Facism & getting closer every day.

But what the so-called "leaders" of the various nations have failed to learn, even though it's truth has become evident numerous times throughout the history of human civilization: Those who rule best will serve more than they are served.
This seems to be the biggest difference between the definitions of "good" leaders as described between grover & vekar...And this is why I still contend that the best "leaders" will really do best by serving.

If Ron Paul is one of those who seek to serve rather than lead, then more power to him...

Originally posted by AcesInTheHole
Ron paul is the only candidate I know of preaching foreign non-intervention policies. I for one am tired of fighting pointless wars that drag on and on with no end in sight.

Which, by the way, is why we have so many "terrorists" running around there today...The CIA was over there mucking things up ever since the "Cold War Era" & our presence there now is actually creating more "terrorists" than they're killing!

But when the US Government begins to classify & define how any US Citizen can be a "terrorist-to-be" (note the Patriot Act, for example), then it's way past time to "clean House."
...and Senate...And White House...And Supreme Court...

Ron Paul is running as a Republican. We do have a system here in the US to elect him short of pulling down the government.

What is the catch?

1. The citizens of the US must want to change what is happening in our country.

2. We must first work together to get Ron Paul on the primary ballot of every state.

3. Then we must vote in the primary. This is the only place where we have a choice of who will be president.

I believe that most of our citizens don't know, or care, or perhaps don't believe, that we can have a voice if everyone who is eligible would vote in the primary.

Many times in the NH primary I have experienced that people don't vote for the person they believe will be a good leader for our country because this person has neither money or face recognition.

They believe that by voting for this person they will be wasting their vote. So what happens? If they vote at all they vote for the person the party and the media tells us will win.

This is self-defeating. We are our own worst enemy. Then we complain when the national election rolls around. We complain that we have to vote for the lessor of two evils. Wrong! We can do something else.

I believe that everyone who is eligible can vote if they really want to. I don't believe that having a national day off to vote, or paying for citizens to vote will change anything. We the people, using our system the way it is designed can change our government.

I agree with everything you said and still you are wrong.... it is the very nature of the system to promote exactly what you are describing which is why you are wrong. People may whine and complain but until the situition hits close to home, family or pocketbook then thats all people will do is whine and complain; and when they are motivated to do something, they follow the tried and true patterns.

THAT is why the system is broken beyond repair; it has become a closed loop or what Gregory Bateson described in another context as a double bind.

Remember in the past - in the 60s, 70s, 90s - when people felt oppressed and mad as hell? What'd they do?

They got together and got ugly.

With all my heart and soul I hope it never comes to this, but let's be frank: the US Government has fixed elections before and they probably will again.

I know the stakes are higher nowadays with the blatant disregard for the Constitution and the powers-that-be looking for any reason to send us all to detainment camps...but when do we as a nation say "ENOUGH?"

If we all vote for Ron Paul and get Giuliani instead, It's time we get together and INSIST UPON CHANGE.

They'll surely hurt some of us, because that's what they're good at, but we've got to do something to save our country. If we don't stand together, peacefully yet undeterred, then we deserve our fate.

Remember....throughout history, people have had to fight for their freedom.

E Pluribus Unum.

I lived through the 60's 70's 80's and 90's and I never felt oppressed as all hell. In fact the only administrations that have made me worry about the direction and future of this country were the Nixxon, Reagan and the current one. Ford didn't worry me and even pappy bush looks better and better all the time compared to his son. Hell even Nixxon looks better and better compared to jr.

Honestly, the most disturbing thing is that we look at history and see so many people who put their lives on the line, so many who have died in order to give us the right to vote.
And now what?
Now all of their fighting and struggles have been made in vain. Why? Because we don't feel like our vote counts? Because our vote really doesn't count?
So what? Let us show them before its even time to vote! Let us prove that we are willing to rally so much support for 'the truth' that we wont need to vote, because the support will be right in front of their eyes! How can they deny us then? What, kill RP? I'm sorry, but IMO, that man needs 24hour security because if 'they' touch him it's over, My life course will change and I'm sure I'll end up in jail somehow
(I used the term 'they' in quotes because I have no definition of who they really are- Only my assumption that 'they' exist)

There's a fairly large chance that Paul will lose (almost certain unless something changes, though it might, for all we know). I don't think that most people are educated enough (or care enough) to see the need for his ideas. However, it's very, very important that we rally behind him nonetheless - this is the perfect opportunity to spread these ideas and awaken America. It's our duty as men to ensure that they never die, even after our founding fathers are forgotten and America only exists in textbooks.