And if Ron Paul Loses...

It's sad I stated this thread and I haven't said much on it.

There I times when I see the sun set. I get a picture in my mind of giant storm that I can not escape.

There are days that it gets to me. The feeling of hopelessness. I see so much wrong in the world and I don't know what to do to save my family.

I have no weapons to protect my family. I have no stored food supply.
I might have to turn of my internet connection just to have a little more money for the bills. And the only bill I have are housing, food, and clothing for my kids.

There is no great hero to coming to save the day. Not Ron Paul. Not Jesus. No one.

I think the only reason I go on is because of the love of my wife and kids.

So have fun with the endless debates. I think I'll just fade away for a bit.

If you could only see the storm like I do. You would despair.

Originally posted by Vekar
One last thing MDS: What ever made you think they WOULD follow their oaths? Look at their actions and the corruption that is spreading like a wildfire. Why would they even WANT to follow their oaths when they can get away with it?

Evidently, you missed what I pointed out earlier (back on Page 2 of this thread): America doesn't really need Ron Paul personally...What America needs is a lot of Ron Pauls. It's not the man that's really important; It's what he stands for that must be supported. When enough People are together with one voice, the corrupted must be held accountable.

Originally posted by Vekar
I shall stand by all that I have said no matter WHAT. We DO need a LEADER not a president, why? Leaders unite people, they organise people, they protect them, help them, and push the people forward for the good of the whole not the one. Your idea of a "civil servant" will not help a whole lot, or at all. A leader is someone who embodies many things, that is what is needed, not just "servants."

Of all the "leaders" who have so far taken up positions in government & wound up corrupting it, why would you still support that kind of mind-set? When was the last time you actually read the Constitution, anyway? As government officials, they are required by legally-binding Oath to obey it in whole; The Constitution, if it's adhered to, designates the Government (on both Federal & State levels) as being servant to the People, not leaders.

Originally posted by Vekar
They know what they are doing, and they do not care about what the concequences are.

Obviously...Here's another thread that points this out. I never said that they didn't have this planned all along.

Originally posted by Vekar
Remember, as I have said and others this has been going on since before Vietnam and they have gotten away with it 100% of the time.

Actually, the corruption of the American Constitutional Republic has been going on for much longer than that; Ever since the newly created US Postal Service decided that they needed roads to deliver the mail, then appropriated Public Lands & granted or sold those lands to the Corps (called "Charters" back then) to do the actual building/maintaining. The Constitution does allow for limited & conditional appropriation of Public Lands, but being given over to Corps was never one of those conditions. When the Government actually granted Citizenship Status to Corps is when it really started to go downhill fast.

Originally posted by Vekar
As for Mexicos economy, BS, they couldnt fix it if they wanted too. NAFTA made sure of that by allowing US corporations to run rampant in Mexico and wiped out their economy.

Precisely...But why let them come here illegally instead of becoming naturalized citizens? With no drive to become citizens, they have no motivation to aid this country either. So far, the Corps have been "outsourcing" jobs, shutting down industries, driving this country into insolvable debt (by excessive taxation & manipulating the basis of economy)...And the illegals make the whole situation worse!

Originally posted by Vekar
When you drive people into desperation, they take desperate measures.
The Mexicans are desperate, broken, poor/homeless, used and abused.

And allowing so many (over 20 million so far & still growing) "desperate illegals" into the USA is supposed to make American Citizens feel okay?...More & more American Citizens desperate are getting desperate with this added to pressure orginating from Government corruption & Corporate influence.

I still contend that individual "leaders" are not what America needs most...America needs a lot of "Ron Pauls" to stand up & root out the corruption, making the corrupted answer for their crimes against The People. An Executive Branch that refuses to enforce the laws, a Legislative Branch that legislates against the "Supreme Law of the Land" (the Constitution) & a Judicial Branch that increasingly "interprets" in favor of those who've been corrupted by the Corporates...The Government cannot be held accountable or corrected by a single "leader" or even a small group of "leaders" scattered among the various Offices. It would take a concerted effort by a Majority in the Government who could resist & root Corporate Interests out of the system.

We don't need more "leaders"... "we the people" need to stop letting the politicians "lead" and start making them to do what we want.

I am sick to death of mealy mouthed politicians and vapid parties that represent greed, corruption, stupidity, extremisms and nothing more.

If we let them getting away with only doing what their owners want; then the only ones being represented in our government will be their owners, and the rest of us who can't afford a politician suffer.

I won't say the current crop of egotists running for president today lack vision but they would all benefit from seeing eye dogs.

The first step for regaining this country is to eliminate ALL corporate and private contributions to political campaigns and make every one from dog catcher to president 100% public funded. Set a minimum limit on a petition to get on the ballot and anyone who reaches it gets 100% public financing.

The second would be to repeal the Reagan error law doing away with equal air time.

The third would be to retool the way running for office is done. Have it that ALL caucus' and primaries are on the same day and make that day a national holiday to encourage voting. Have the conventions immediately afterwards...set strict limits on how long campaigns are and make election day, election weekend and again, a national holiday and ban all media reports and speculations on who is winning until the very last precinct has closed.

Unless we regain some degree of control over the process in this country; politicians will be the death of us yet.



[edit on 16-6-2007 by grover]

Good thoughts there grover. I agree with your ideas for the most part, except it's not strong enough in some areas.

Make it a condition of having a right to drive a car requires you to vote. No vote, no driving.

We cannot or should not require people to vote (though some countries do) but encourage it yes. Don't tie it to anything but itself. If we do have any freedoms in this country the biggest should be choosing to take part in the political process or choosing to stand aloof.

MDS: I think you are failing to realize you are on the same page as me but with a slightly different take on it. So let me do a fast "cut to the chase" before I leave the house:
Illegals swarming here because: no jobs, overall economy is shot and government corrupt.
Result: They come here, no jobs here either, we all lose.
Solution: fix both economies by removing a weed that has caused all these problems: NWO/Elite/The corporations who started this whole mess.
Result: economies stabalize, jobs are created by NEW family owned businesses in the USA and Mexico, everyone wins.

As for the desperation part: Yes the Mexicans are desperate yet so are we. They are desperate enough to run boarders and give the law "the finger" just to get here to make some money. At the same time OUR country (USA) is so desperate people run off to join the military en mase to survive or go into criminal activities to make money. We (USA&Mexico) are in the same boat for desperation, all of which is caused by a common foe, thus WE (All of us) need to unite against them and fix the problem from the inside out. We will not solve this by getting at each others throats.

Back to discussion: someone up at the way top of this made a comment about despair: go ahead and despair kid. That is NOT going to solve things, if you know the situation you are in, FIX IT! I fixed part of it, and am still pushing to fix the rest on a personal basis so I am ready for them when they come. Despair is what they WANT, with it they dominate the world, and have for many years (since Vietnam). Thus if you want to fight them, I suggest you ask for help if you can not do anything on your own. Is that not what we are here for? To help each other? If we can not help each other... Then we fall.

Politicians=Beurocrats=(overall politicians AND beurocrats)whores to corporations/anyone with money and power. One warning about the government, they are not leaders, never have been, never will be. For all we know there COULD be a saviour out there, but rest assured they WILL try and assassinate them the very second they show up. Do NOT expect leaders to come from the political parties, do NOT expect saviours to come from them either or any organizations. Leaders and saviours are a dying/almost extinct breed of people that always have to fight like heck to get any recognition as being alive. However, the upcomming fight could reveal one or more of them, so never rule anything out. Yet as stated you CAN rule out leaders and saviours comming from the political parties and other organizations currently out there.
The true leaders will show up by uniting THE PEOPLE not just one or two groups, the SAVIOUR is the one who will lead people out of the mess. Yet there is always that third factor and grover touched on it slightly so here it is: the people need to be willing to stand up and aid the leader(s). The people must be willing to unite and stay united for this to work and be willing to cast asside petty differences and hate that has been used against them for so long (since there were civilizations).

So let me break it down:
The people: a bunch of scattered twigs.
The Leader(s): The person who bundles them into one so they will not break so easily.

Which are you? The twig or the would be leader?
Everyone has a place in this, so decide where yours is and get ready to take a stand even if it costs you your life. Why? If we fail... Then it will cost everyone their lives and their souls. Not just here in North America, but the entire world. This storm knows no bounds, this evil will sweep us all up if we are unable to defeat them.

What an ironic future we face. The world hinges on the result of an election.

Such reliance on leaders smacks of fascism at its most basic level.

In case you did not notice I was also saying in the same breath: The leader shows the way, the people follow it or fight it, that is their choice, they can make or sink the boat at will if they just work together. The leader is mearly the person who puts forth overall ideas that the people wants and is the person who represents them worldwide and at the same time maintaining government functionality. The people on the flip side are the ones who must MONITOR the government and the leaders and make their will known or else things will fall apart.

The whole idea of a leader is flawed.

Its kind of like that scene in "The Life of Brian".... Brian is being followed by a mob who is hanging on every word he says and he turns to them and says "You have got to learn to think for yourselves"... and the crowd responds "we've got to learn to think for ourselves."

I am not interested in anybody who wants to be or thinks of themselves as leaders nor do I have any interest in following one... I am not about to stroke anybodies ego by letting them think that they have that much influence to sway me. I will be swayed by sound ideas regardless of where they come from.

It is high time for the people who think they lead to start doing some following. Like this god forsaken war.

In short you have not swayed me. I stand by my previous posts on this subject.

Because you are scared and mislead on what a leader truely is. You have to learn to follow people Grover, or you WILL fall. I promise you that, no I swear that upon my life and the blood that flows through my veins, if you never gain trust you will always lose. Without a leader there is only chaos, without leaders you have anarchy, there is no central body to govern over the others and lawlesness abounds. That is why Communism faltered in the begining, and always will, it requires there to be no leader, only a community. So what happened? They got stomped on each and every time, there was no central authority. It takes leaders to end wars, leaders to enforce laws internationaly. If you cannot see this then you are no leader, you are a follower, or someone who will always talk about "the people" or "the good of the people" but is always to scared to take that last step of putting your effort into supporting someone. You have to learn to support someone so they can act on your behalf and lead the crowd to victory. A dictator is the one who has the crowd bleet what they say, and never truely wants them to think for themselves. DO NOT EVER confuse the two: leader and dictator. A LEADER has the good of the people in mind, a DICTATOR (in our case puppets) have the good of the ONE in mind, not the people.

You Grover have never even seen a leader so far, so let me introduce you to several leaders:
Martin Luther King
Ghandi
Those are leaders, they rallied people, taught them to think for themselves, they did not TALK about what they would do or what they wanted people to do, they DID it, they were not all talk but no show. Martin Luther King was a leader who rallied the black people in the South to fight against the injustices they faced, he won. Ghandi fought to remove the British empire from India, he lead people, he was a leader, he never demanded people bleet what he said, he put forth ideas and followed them himself, others followed of their own free will.

Those are leaders grover. If there were no leaders, those two would never have existed, would never have changed things, you (pending on color) would still be in a segregated school when you were (or maybe you still are) 12, 14, 16 or 18, maybe younger. If you are black or colored, right now you would have no rights what so ever, you would still be in fear of having a white man murdering you in the night and raping your daughter, only to be caught and when found out he is white: released instantly.

Are you so scared of leaders that you are willing to put up false flags and false images? So far that is exactly what you are doing. You have spoken only of dictators, kings, emperors, queens, kings, dukes, warlords, etc. Never have to even put forth the thought of a leader. So let me tell you again what a leader is:
A leader is someone who unites the people for the common good, a leader is someone who helps the people, protects the people, offers guidance. It is up to the people to follow or not follow though. A leader is based on theory and philosophy, it is a matter of: are those the same theories and philosophies you follow?
A leader creates law out of chaos.

For the last time Grover, you need to put faith in someone, or else you will never find a unified people. Everytime you talk about "leaders" you are in fact talking about dictators or those who seek to divide the people or USE the people. A leader is the immortal enemy of those who seek to use and abuse the people.

Realize that a leader actually has the people think, if need be teaches them to think, the last thing they want is a flock of sheep. A dictator wants the flock, they are the ones who say X and expect the people to bleet back X and drop the subject.

A leader will have said: "You need to think for yourselves" and in the same stroke EDUCATES the people.

A dictator will say: "You need to think for yourselves" and will drop it, and if the people do not bleep back "We need to think for ourselves" will PROGRAM them to not think.

Note the extreme differences between a LEADER and a DICTATOR. You need to learn that or else you will only make enemies in this world.

Grover I have a question for you: Have YOU ever tried to teach people how to think for themselves? I have.

Both Martin Luther King Jr. and Gandi led by taking part in their movements and being examples... not by being "leaders"... both I assure you would have described themselves as servants, not leaders.

I have no problem with people like that... i do have one with people who set out to make themselves leaders.

THAT is what I am talking about.

And yes I have done my fair share of trying to encourage (which is all you can ever do) people to think for themselves.

[edit on 16-6-2007 by grover]

Then you have made millions upon millions your enemy just now. You obviously have not a clue what a leader is and did NOT read what I said. Obviously you do not care at all. So for the last time kid since you will not listen:
A leader sets out to lead the people, not for their gain, but for the betterment of the people. A leader unites people and is the figurehead of the state/government and provides law and order, or turns chaos to order.
MLK WAS a leader whether you like it or not, so was Ghandi, they united people and moved them in the direction that would benefit the people not themselves. That is a leader, the sooner you learn that the sooner you realize you are only harming your allies right now. MLK and Ghandi were true leaders, as I (me) stated they set an example and followed it. That is a leader, a leader is willing to stand up front and lead the crowd, they become part OF the crowd and the crowd is one. They were leaders because they set out and created order, they united squabling groups and turned them into a cohesive movement to accomplish a goal and did. They proved themselves leaders by going out and LEADING the people, they did not COWER like dictators or puppets do. They lead the charge. That is a leader.

Grover you are so confused about what a leader is and what a leader is NOT you are making it sound like they are vixens who are out to eat babies and bleed the people. WRONG! I defined (in reality) who really does that, not leaders.

If you are against those who set out to be leaders then you are my enemy as of now, because I set out to lead people, I set out to help them. I am not going to hide behind the lines like others do. I am NOT going to abandon people like the government puppets do, the elite/NWO or corporations, then again the would be dictators of the world. I set out to be a leader of the people, someone who is going to unite people and educate them, show them how to work together for once in their life despite the petty differences. I set out in life to be a leader like MLK, to challange and put down the injustices being done by the government, to change the system.

If you are against leaders, you obviously have no idea what a leader truely is. A leader is someone who stands up for the people, who is willing to take a bullet for the people. A leader is willing to fight to the bitter end to defend: THE PEOPLE.

A leader is (for the 10th time): someone who AIDS THE PEOPLE!

And again: a leader is no better than the common person, they are simply the one who unites them and moves them forward to solutions that will help and free the people. A DICTATOR is one who sees themselves as BETTER than the people, thus the dictators are HORRIFIED of LEADERS.

I must reiterate a certain point I made: I set out to be a leader to aid the people, not harm them like you falsely believe leaders do. At the same time, leaders are born, not made. It is a simple matter of realizing what they can do potentialy if they put their mind to something. I have found what I can do if I put my mind to something, I can get people to unite.

Grover for the last time, you keep thinking leader is an awfull word, it is taboo to you. It is not, leader is a word that has become tainted in time, it is thrown around like it is nothing yet no one knows the true meaning of a leader. You have a signature that talks about LIBERALS and how people do not understand what a liberal is in reality, it is time you realize what a LEADER is in reality. A leader is someone like MLK or Ghandi, that is the truth whether you like it or not, why?
A leader unites, they do not divide. They seek to help the people and better the people, to educate the people. So what are you?

Now, to push the last point which you are not following at all:
A leader does two other things: they both serve, and lead people. Thus MLK and Ghandi are leaders, they listened to the people, then acted on it. They served the people, but also took up the struggle and forged a path for the rest to follow should they want to change things. People followed the path, and today segregation is illegal, it is illegal to denigh someone based on color the right to drink, eat, excetera at any place of business or to denigh work based on color.


I suggest you go over this whole thing one last time, and read every last word, then stop and think for an hour, then get back to me on it.

Leadership is different things to different people. The 'good' leaders know when to stand out in front, or when to sit in the back and delegate. Tolerance figures prominently in most job descritpions, too. the Leader may champion a specific ideology, but they're also smart enough to knowthat they got to put up with some stuff.

Dignity in opposition can also be a defining characteristic of leadership. Smart is good, and idealism certainly helps, but the wind blows both ways and the best leaders learn to read it and bend with it. By their example, they can shame, or encourage a certain activity. Some obstacles can be overcome. Others must be gone around.

LOOK...

#1 I AM NOT A KID...I am over 50 do don't you DARE address me like I am some snotty nosed brat who hasn't a clue.

#2 I know damned good and well what I am talking about and you refuse to pay any attention to it. I was, I am and I continue to be talking about people who presume to be leaders... you have made no attempt to understand what I have been saying or even attempted to consider the distinctions.

#3 Nothing annoys me more than when someone reads into my posts things that are not there or things that I did not say. I am more than competent with language to say and write exactly what I mean.

I swear to God nothing tics me off than to be talked down to and to be treated like I am some kind of idiot.

I have rewritten this since my original post reflected more accurately my anger at your condescending attitude.




[edit on 17-6-2007 by grover]

I don't know why I am even going to make the attempt since you seem more enamored with the sound of your own voice as opposed to having a dialog, but here goes.

Martin Luther King Jr. and Gandi were both true leaders. So using them as examples:

The thing that they both had in common and what made them true leaders is that they made no effort to lead per say. Eventually they came to represent their causes but they were not at the forefront urging their people to "follow" them. Yes they both planned and they both organized but their real strength came not from those mundane activities but more from a moral or spiritual source.

They did not delegate, they put themselves in the line of fire. They accepted the repercussions of their actions, did their jail time along with their fellow travelers, or in Gandi's case, starved. The more he fasted to protest British policies in India the the stronger his cause became... Not because he ordered followers to starve themselves in his stead or even along with him, but that he was willing to starve himself to death (and came damned close several times) for his cause.

Can you name one politician in America today who would be willing to even make a token gesture like that? No not one. Yet they want to be leaders.

Hillary Clinton is no leader.
Rudy Guilliani is no leader.
Mitt Romney is no leader.
Barack Obama is no leader.
There is not a single politician running for office in America today who is a leader.

None of them can move, none of them can inspire, and none of them have the balls to lay their lives on the line for what they say that they believe. Consequently none of them are worthy to be considered a leader or worthy of any respect.

They are just another batch of vapid, mealy mouthed politicians... another pack of bloody visionless parasites and nothing more.

This is the first election cycle in my life time, that if the stakes were not so high, I would seriously consider not voting.
Trouble is we've had eight years of bush minor. And still out of the whole crop of presidential wannabes there is not one who could envision their way out of a wet paper bag. As a result our nations problems will not be addressed in a serious manner and the buck will keep being passed to the next president and the next congress until the problems that beset us become so large, that they will drag us down as a nation, as a people.

And all because we keep falling for these people who WANT to be leaders, but aren't and never will be.

THAT is what I am talking about.... AND that is what I have BEEN talking about.



[edit on 17-6-2007 by grover]

I am sure you mean that none are true leaders, with the exception of 1. Ron Paul. He is the only honest man who believes in his principals. Who will get us out of the mess we've made in the middle east. Who will lead the world by setting a good example at home, rather than try to control the world through force. If you want to fix the problems that plague our nation then you must cast your vote for Ron Paul & for America's Future.

If not for youselves then do it for your grandchildren.

Because, There is HOPE and his name is Ron Paul.

No I mean all of them. There is no hope in any politician....all of them... period.

I am indeed impressed with Ron Paul on some things.... on others he sounds like just another Republican. The only difference is that he is a genuine conservative as opposed to most who call themselves that. And I can respect that even if I don't agree with him on some issues.

I would be happier if he was running as an independent.

He is obviously an honest man but that is why he doesn't have a snowballs chance in hell of winning the nomination, much less a general election.

Sadly at the current time it looks like Hillary Clinton vs Rudy Guilliani and the thought of having to chose between those two makes me want to throw up.

I am a life long Democrat but I may do in the primary here in Va. What I did in 2000. Here both parties can vote in the others primary and in 2000 I voted in the Republican one for John McCain, not because I would have voted for him in the general election, because I wouldn't but I was already sick of bush minor and the fact that he was being tauted as the next president before he had even won a primary.

If he lasts that long I may vote for Ron Paul against Rudy Guilliani in the Republican primary here though I know he doesn't have a chance, just to register my protest.

Unfortunately there is not even one Democrat I want to vote for at all but, since the stakes are so high, if it comes down between Hillary and Rudy, I will put a clothespin on my nose, a gas mask on my face, seek absolution before the fact and....shudder.... vote for her.


[edit on 17-6-2007 by grover]

I guess what I have been saying through all my most recent posts is that I have lost all faith in our political system. It is hopelessly broken. If you are in office today, you are already compromised since you had to play the game in order to get there in the first place, and to continue playing it in order to stay in office and that includes Ron Paul.

I will continue voting because the choices range from bad to worse and if anything I want to try and prevent worse from getting in, but after 2 terms of bush minor, the thought of what could be worse makes my blood run cold.

I remain a dyed in the wool liberal and will continue voicing my protests against the hard right, the neo-cons and their policies, but I cannot in all good conscious endorse any politician, of any stripe.

Short of gutting our whole system and starting over I don't see any way forward, and I fear it is even too late for that.

grover, I applaud you for voting, even when your choice is not good. The real problem is so little voter turnout nationwide. Many people fail to vote because they see so little choice. This allows a minority to then swing the system to their candidate.

It was for this reason that I feel tying the vote to the right to drive has merit. It would force people to vote, even when they would rather not be involved. And I understand your stance that it is a freedom, but it is also a duty. As a duty, to this nation and to fellow countrymen, it ought rank right up there with any other duty, as an obligation.

But perhaps a middle ground could be achieved. Maybe what we need is a national paid holiday for voting, but that is only paid when voting is proved. Thus there would be an incentive to vote.