And if Ron Paul Loses...

JO, I agree that turning around the political momentum towards a police state is a time consuming task. It reminds me of the physics of stopping a train. The sheer amount of weight cannot easily be shunted in a new direction with ease.

But there is what I see as a more important agenda afoot here, and one that must be addressed, even at the risk of pointing out a 'what if' that is at loggerheads with the intent of this thread.

Why would Ron Paul be allowed to win at this moment in American history?

A simple answer, minus all the frills, is that this is the best time to find all the 'enemies' of the state.

Right now the state, in it's proto-police state setup, has a great deal of built in power as regards the lower echelon government functionaries. And even though a 'freedom party' president in the form of Ron Paul might get elected, it would take him, at the least, a couple of years to consolidate any real power to make changes on a scale large enough to effect the overall course of the police state that we are aimed for at present.

Yet, it would be valuable to the overall controlling faction to have him as the leader of America for the purpose of smoking out those who would be dead set against a full fledged police state. At the same time, it would slightly diffuse the watchfulness of those who favor Constitutional government, as they focused on aiding Ron Paul in returning to that standard.

Midway through his first term, while the 'old guard' still had a lot of power and resources in place and yet after most patriots had came out of the closet, would be an excellent time for a "change" in leadership. This could also serve the very purpose of instigating martial law, provided the means to remove him from office were violent, and could be blamed on an outside entity.

In my mind, such a scenario would serve the goals of a change to a police state easier than almost any other means available.

It is for these reasons that I would urge everyone to remain on guard for a long while in our future, even if Ron Paul is elected.

[edit on 11-6-2007 by NGC2736]

NG, I can see your point, but I don't think that the people behind the scenes will need to be that clever. the Federal government is already in a position to resurrect the Committee on UnAmerican Activities. Those who don't know what that is should Google it, and be ready for some strong reading.

The patriots will not have to be lured out in to the open. Most come out in to the open of their own free will. I can only speak for myself, so I will use myself as the example in this case. I chose to step on to the national stage. Nobody forced me to write, or even to come on ATS. There is no gun to my head each time I do some radio.

The simple truth is that any of us who have posted on ATS or stes like it could wind up on that enemy's list if Federal authorities decide that this web site is seditious, disruptive, or hostile to American national interests. If you stayed offline and kept your mailbox 'clean,' while avoiding the subject of politics with anyone...you would still be at risk because The State will see fit to monitor you in the years to come.

Having sai that, I maintain that there is no point in hiding. That's why I'm still on ATS, and that's why I'll keep writing. Again, I'm speaking just for myself because I gave me permission to do so. It's easy to take your frist amendment rights for granted. It's easy to assume that that you could never be a target.

Google the Red Scare, and the Committee on UnAmerican Activities, and you'll see just how easy it is to be on somebody's bad list. Remember that people in Hollywood were blacklisted "just in case." Want to have some fun? Rent and watch both versions of The Manchurian Candidate some time, and be ready to sleep poorly with the lights on...just in case.

If our political elites will gamble on anything, it will be YOUR silence. They know you're afraid. They also know that by exploiting terrorism, they cna enhance or justify your fear. Each time you stay home and don't vote...they win. Their gamble pays off. Your best defense is to be heard clearly by as many people as will listen. You don't have to be "somebody" to end up in a Federal prison for no good reason. With or without Ron Paul, this is your choice to make.

JO, I agree. I post here, other sites, I make no secret of my position. I have very little to lose except my life, and at my age, even that is something I have long ago came to terms with.

I am just pointing out that the danger will not be over just because Ron Paul, or someone like him, becomes President. It could even increase the danger.

Originally posted by NGC2736
I am just pointing out that the danger will not be over just because Ron Paul, or someone like him, becomes President. It could even increase the danger.

Well said, and I hope that more people understand your point. None of us have any reason to be silent. Speaking up may feel like its wrong, but that's your self-preservation talking. The people who most want to make you conform to their agenda count on your hesitation.

Originally posted by Vekar
I think the overall point of voting (and one I adhere too) is the fact you at least voted for the right person even if they never had a snowballs chance in hell. That way when things get a WHOLE LOT WORSE you can say: "Dont blame me, I voted for the other guy/gal."

So far, in my entire life as a practicing voter, I've yet to find anyone worth my vote! I've been a voter for about 30 years now, but all of my votes thus far have been "No Confidence." It seems likely to change come next year though...Since this is such a "landmark" in my voting history, I urge you all to mark the next Pres Election year as the first time MDS actually voted for somebody!

Originally posted by Vekar
Always remember though that we CAN rebel, yet you must always remember: everything comes at a price, are you willing to pay it?

Well hey! I'm already involved in some of the few remaining peaceful methods left to us. I am a veteran who still adheres to the recruiting Oath to "defend my country against all enemies, foreign & domestic; After all, the Declaration of Independance aptly phrased it, "That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness." (Bold emphasis is mine)
I'm just sorry that it took me so long to fully realize how many of those enemies happen to be in the government...If only they'd take their Oaths to the Constitution as seriously as I do mine.

Originally posted by Vekar
However someone else on ATS had a tag that was very true:
"It is too late to change things within the system, yet too early to shoot the bastards."

Heh! True enough! As the old Chinese curse points out, we're living in interesting times.

Originally posted by Justin Oldham
...And yet, "the moment" happened. And, here I am...

Everyone has some kind of "turning point" in their lives. Congrats on having yours before you grew too old to be capable of backing up your new viewpoint with conviction.
I may not be a "spring chicken" anymore, but I can still display some gumption before I contract Consumption!
If anyone in this thread is interested on a bit of discussion concerning what I personally think about the whole mess in the world today, I'd started several threads about it over the past 5 years...Perhaps the one thread that runs close to this one is just a single click away.
Yes, I'm an old-timer here; I'm easy to find in the Member List, being on the first page at lucky number 13. Even though those older threads seemingly died long ago, they're still open for someone who wants to get nit-picky with me.

Originally posted by Justin Oldham
Long before any of you make the decision to become militant, you'll be called on to sharpen your verbal and written skills so that you can make your case as powerfully as possible without resorting to violence. Ballots before bullets, always.

This is what political activist groups are for...However, ATS is firmly "neutral" as it concerns activism...ATS is a good place to discuss the issues & get viewpoints from people who live pretty much all over the world. But if you're actually going to get activist, you need to go somewhere else; All I'd advise is that you be very careful with which group(s) you get hooked up with...There's a lot of real "crackpot groups" that you should be wary of.
As politicians keep breaking their Oaths to Public Service, these activist groups the are the people who keep rubbing their noses in it. It's sort of like house-breaking a dog; Every time they make a mistake, you have to rub their noses in it, then tell them what they're supposed to do...If they continue to make the same mistakes, it's time to start using the rolled-up newspaper. If all else fails, it's time to give them up to Animal Services.

Originally posted by biggie smalls
The problem with electing Ron Paul is not his politics. The main problem is he is moving against many with vested interest in the government and corporations...
...the truth can finally be known (at least parts of it). I would not be surprised if a majority of those in the know want to release their responsibilities...

IMO, the real agenda is that the Big Corps want the government to be discredited & ruined...So that they can step in with their own version of Corporate Facism. By showing The People that "government will always fail," the Corps will give us a "better alternative" & step in to replace the government.
IMO, the real NWO was the foundation of America as a Constitutional Republic! All throughout the history of human civilization, it was the "government of a few" that always ruled over the many...The USA Founding Fathers wanted to reverse that common theme by putting the People above the government!
In short, the so-called modern "NWO" is actually an attempt to re-establish the "Old World Order" over the true New World Order!

Originally posted by DraconianKing
Emails and attachments have been released proving that caging was used in the last election, I even have them on my computer but the press is totally silent. Caging is a felony and these criminals have gotten away with their crimes. While the rest of the world reports this news most Americans are left clueless.

Hmmm...Perhaps turn your evidence over to a media outlet that's not under their direct control? So that professional investigators can get their hands on it (for confirmation or denial)? IMO, the American Free Press might be a good start...

Originally posted by Kelldor
Get guns. Lots and lots of ammo. Canned food and freeze dried food. Camping/fishing gear. Medical supplies. Don't stay living in the cities. Move out away from the coasts into the interior of the country and join up with other patriots as we fight against the NWO/NAU and National Socialism in America.

Any questions?

Mmmm...More like a suggestion; When stocking up on food, consider adding Twinkies to your list--They've got a shelf-life about as long as the half-life of plutonium...And the sugary, quick energy-boost may just come in handy sometimes.

Originally posted by Justin Oldham
Being prepared for the unthinkable is not wrong, but its only one part of a larger process. Before you dust off your copy of "Red Dawn," remember that you have political options that must be excersized before you do anything else.

I agree; Stand up, Speak up, then dig in...
This is how the US Founding Forefathers got this nation started...If it was good enough for them, it's certainly good enough for me.

It's worth noting that the immigration bill now before Congress is effectively dead. they don't want to make any compromises, so they're going to table it and have done for the rest of this calendar year. While your mad about Ron Paul, be mad about this too. If you needed an excuse to write your Congressman, this would be it. Just be polite and keep it to one page.

If your going to throw immigration into things I need to give a warning:
Do not treat Mexicans like criminals, though millions come here illegaly the last thing anyone needs to do is treat them with hate, malice, anger, racism, or simply put: all around HATE. Why? Hate groups LOVE this, already 2 groups are FLOURISHING because of the hate being seeded by foolish americans who make the Mexicans out to be all demons in loincloths out to steal all they can. Want the names? La Raza and Aztlan, then there is MeChA if you want to make that three not two. Also people flee their home nation because of political problems or economy. Mexico has an extreme case of corruption and loss of economy so they come here hoping to make more. Sure enough they do, they wind up working for the same corporations who destroyed their country. Irony no?

Still we have the nagging problem of what will happen not in 2008 really, but what will happen between now and THEN. They still have plenty of time to push ahead... I am one who believes they are going to get rid of bushy and get a new face just to change the hate levels then slam the nation with some kind of "terrorist" attack to solidify their power. Then again if things are going TOO well for them they will just change the face but not the message and keep going.

Kind of sad how one election can spell doom for a nation.

Originally posted by RRconservative
This post makes it sound like Ron Paul actually has a chance, and if he loses it must be a conspiracy.

Ron Paul has no chance. A republican candidate who is being backed by Alex Jones and Prison Planet? Come on.

The Ron Paul Fantasy Tour is almost over.

The Republican nominee will be between Thompson and Gingrich. Whichever one out-conservatives the other, will likely be the winner.

Either one will beat Hillary.

Sighs.....RR you are relentless.. Fine have it your way.

Well *cackles evilly* If Ron Paul fails to get nominated for the GOP. I'll go to plan B- I'll just vote for Hillary Clinton. bwhahahahahahahaha

NO!! NO!! OK!! OK!! You can vote for Ron Paul!!! Anyone but her!!!

Originally posted by Vekar
If your going to throw immigration into things I need to give a warning:
Do not treat Mexicans like criminals, though millions come here illegaly the last thing anyone needs to do is treat them with hate, malice, anger, racism, or simply put: all around HATE. Why? Hate groups LOVE this, already 2 groups are FLOURISHING because of the hate being seeded by foolish americans who make the Mexicans out to be all demons in loincloths out to steal all they can. Want the names? La Raza and Aztlan, then there is MeChA if you want to make that three not two. Also people flee their home nation because of political problems or economy. Mexico has an extreme case of corruption and loss of economy so they come here hoping to make more. Sure enough they do, they wind up working for the same corporations who destroyed their country. Irony no?

I don't treat or view Mexicans as criminals.

I see illegal immigrants, including those from Mexico, as criminals (since they are; it's like seeing a car as a car or a tree as a tree).

[edit on 11-6-2007 by Johnmike]

So when Europeans come in and take over a whole continent its not "illegal," but when natives of this continent decide to move for a better life this is illegal?

We didn't even exist till a little over 200 years ago remember.

Who lived here beforehand?

Yep, and I want all of you to leave within the month.

Really, this is a problem. And it will have to be solved. This border fence isn't ever going to work. I've lined along the border, and there is just no way you could secure it, even with the whole US Army.

But jobs will need to be maintained for legal workers in preference to illegals. the truth is, compromises will have to be reached. All or nothing will never work.

Originally posted by biggie smalls
So when Europeans come in and take over a whole continent its not "illegal," but when natives of this continent decide to move for a better life this is illegal?

We didn't even exist till a little over 200 years ago remember.

That wasn't immigration. It was colonization and conquest.

You can't see anything like that. National boundaries exist today and the United States got all of the Mexican Cession by treaty. 200 years ago, plenty of national borders were vastly different.

I'm talking about today, not about how this nation got here.

Originally posted by biggie smalls
Who lived here beforehand?

Fair enough. If they can find any Native American that was alive before 1776, he or she should be allowed immediate entry into the United States. Hell, I'll pay for the plane ticket.

ron paul sounds like hes moving in the exact opposit direction of the new world order. but aint that allso a bad thing it sounds like he doesnt want the human race united dont get get me wrong i know nWo is a bad thing but one world sounds great.


im not american but is ron paul tryin to stop people fropm moving to the u.s. i mran is it getting harder to move to the u.s if ron paul wins the election cuz my dream is to move to u.s so im just wondering

sorry 4 all my misspelings and #

Well I don't know, he hasn't said anything about legal immigration. He does stand against illegal immigration, but that won't affect you unless you plan to sneak into my country.

And no, a one world government is not a good thing because one government can't satisfy such a diverse planet.

Originally posted by Johnmike
And no, a one world government is not a good thing because one government can't satisfy such a diverse planet.

yea thats true but wouldnt it be better if the world or the people would be united i know it's allmost impossible

Main point being about treatment of illegals is do not treat them any different than how you would like to be treated, that also goes for all people not just Mexicans who are legal or illegaly here.

As for a solution: we need to rebuild our economies, we got raped, they got raped, shoot we all got raped one way or another. The only way to solve this is to get all our economies off the ground and push forward. Also it would help if we solved BOTH of our corruption problems. I just hope RP realizes this. The only way to protect boarders is to stabalize economies, and get rid of government corruption so people have a chance.

Originally posted by Vekar
Main point being about treatment of illegals is do not treat them any different than how you would like to be treated, that also goes for all people not just Mexicans who are legal or illegaly here.

That really depends on your character. I don't want to be caught for a crime I commit, nor do most other people. But if I was here illegally, yes, I would be breaking the law and should be prosecuted. Even murderers are people, but they are also criminals.

Then answer this: would you want the snot beat out of you for being a criminal? Would YOU want to be berated and treated like an animal because you left your home nation illegaly to try and make a living somewhere else? They come here for money, because there is NO money to be made in Mexico unless your a drug runner. At least they are being honorable to those ends. Their attempts at survival is not criminal except for the nutjobs like La Raza, Aztlan and MeChA. Maybe if you looked at the state of the Mexican economy vs our own you would realize why they are so eager to run the boarder.


If you want to solve the problem solve the economy.

Originally posted by Vekar
Then answer this: would you want the snot beat out of you for being a criminal? Would YOU want to be berated and treated like an animal because you left your home nation illegaly to try and make a living somewhere else?

I'm trying to understand why you would ask that. Are you implying that I would support such a thing? I believe in the law, and beating the snot out of someone and treating someone as an animal is very much cruel and unusual punishment, not to mention quite illegal.

Originally posted by Vekar
They come here for money, because there is NO money to be made in Mexico unless your a drug runner. At least they are being honorable to those ends. Their attempts at survival is not criminal except for the nutjobs like La Raza, Aztlan and MeChA. Maybe if you looked at the state of the Mexican economy vs our own you would realize why they are so eager to run the boarder.

Their attempts at survival do not make them a criminal, but their violation of our national borders do. Immigration is fine, other cultures are fine, but we can't support a massive influx of undocumented foreigners like that.

I have the most sympathy for anyone, but you can't betray your own people for a bunch of Mexicans who want to come into the country. The welfare of the United States is the business of the United States; the welfare of Mexico is the business of Mexico. In my eyes, the United States is the greatest (though not without major flaws, in both the present and past) nation known to exist, in terms of freedom and economic prosperity. Of course tons of people would love to get in on it, but you just can't damage the lives of American workers in the name of a bunch of foreigners.

Just because they're incapable of supporting themselves economically doesn't mean that we're responsible for feeding them.

[edit on 11-6-2007 by Johnmike]

When it is the same corporations from the USA that have destroyed their nation... Yes we are responsible. Like I said, if you want to solve the problem, make sure you do not feed the fires of the La Raza, Aztlan and MeChA. Walls will not stop people for long, fixing the reason why they come here will stop people. If you are so blatant as to try and keep forcing people out and NEVER solve the root of the problem your only digging your own grave. We are all stuck because of the elites actions, it is time we acknowledged that and worked as ONE PEOPLE not a bunch of squabling two year olds. We have a common enemy and a common goal in life, have you ever realized that?

How do you kill a weed johnmike? While you mull that over I will give the responce:




How to kill a weed:
Do not chop off the top of the plant, for it will grow back. If you wish to kill the weed, dig out the roots, expose them to the sun and dry them out. Only then will the weed die, because it can no longer draw upon what it needs to live.

Trying to build walls, machine gun nests, placing armies all over the place is not going to help at all in the end, going after the root of the problem WILL. So how about we all work together for once in the past 3000+ years? 3000 years of war, and if you want to keep this petty strife going, be my guest, I shall have no part in it. I will be the one stoping you at every turn. You can be scared of helping others out of holes all you want, which you call "spoon feading" however I am one for helping people in need. I am willing to help the Mexicans so they will not have to risk death by dehydration to get to the USA.

Drive a people into desperation, they will take desperate actions.

Now back to discussion for the last time.